I am building a new character, and he is an ex-SWAT (probably from the FBI equivalent, but could be Lone Star SWAT).

I realised it would make sense that he had some standard cyberware, including plastic bone lacing, wired reflexes, smartlink and such. Them it hit me: if a character has some cyberware that fits his background, and it is forbidden/restricted, how should we deal with this?

I know that, in game terms, it's all about fake SINs plus fake licences. But how about a legit permit? Afterall there was an organization that legaly implanted the stuff on the character and obviously, in most cases, it would not be easly remmoved without serious side effects.

I guess the same would happen if your character was some sort of military "special ops". In the Shadowrun world you would have lots of military grade stuff (say, cyberarms with ennhancements for example) that (I think) would not necessary be removed from you if you quit.

Just wondering if anyone thought about this, how to integrate background stories and the rules in this case. As a side note I am not looking for ways to circunvent game balance, I do think we should pay the "in game price" for everything, aways.

For the most part you couldn't expect to hang onto this stuff legally after your employment. Organizations aren't just going to let expensive 'ware float off, they're going to reclaim it. Governments aren't going to let you walk off with your rocket cyberarms (headline: "former ATF agent uses government-installed cyberware to massacre city block, news at 11").

If your employment ends on good terms, there should be a clause for dangerous cyberware removal. If it ends on bad terms and you steal all your cyber, you should find yourself as a wanted criminal.

"Former ATF agent uses Suprathyroid gland to eat more; improve health: news at 2:30"

Restricted Gear Quality
Cost: 5 BP
The character knows just the right person to get ahold of that
one elusive piece of restricted gear or miltech weaponry she really
needed. Every time the character takes this quality at character
creation (max 3 times), she may exceptionally buy a piece of gear
with an Availability of up to 20. The character may also save the
quality to buy one such item during play.

You get busted using it for anything or really even having it. two things will happen.
1. They run your ID - real or fake
2. You clear it or you don't

Unless you are currently working for law enforcement or have a convincing license that says you are, you're probably screwed.
The only way to legally have Forbidden gear is to have a day job that makes it legal.

Well, Restricted Gear is just that ... Restricted. You *can* get permits for it, and being a police officer or bodyguard is perfectly fine rationalization.

Forbidden gear, however, is *never* legal.

Compare it to, say, having a pistol (Have a permit for that? \\ Yeah \\ Okay, have a nice day.) to having an assault shotgun ( Your ass had BEST have a permit for that!) to having a cannister of Smallpox (There is no permit in the WORLD for that.) ... the latter you might get away with in a super-secure lab with huge reduncdancies, but if it ever got outside, you're mulch.

So, try using only standard and restricted gear, stay away from Forbidden, and you should be fine.

Some things don't make sense to me to be Forbidden like Suprathyroid. There is absolutely no good reason for it to have that "F" tag.

Maybe it got some nasty long term side effects making it unfit for public consumption...
Some things are illegal for other reasons then being conducive to violence

There are none in the description of the implant--not any "nasty" ones anyway--and if it's not in the description it doesn't exist. Only side-effect is it makes one eat more, and that is not a valid reason for it to be Forbidden--the numerical availability is simply ludicrous as well. Period. Full stop.

Not to mention, Move By Wire does, in fact, explicitly have very nasty side effects, but only Rating 3 of it is Forbidden. The availability and legality system is just derped up in general.

A more fitting Availability for the Suprathyroid would probably be anywhere from 8 to 10 (for the numerical value) and possibly going to "R" (though even that has little if any real justification behind it).

Uhm, I think the availability is based on the stats it grant, ware generally grant +1 attribute point per 5 availability points. 20F might be a bit harsh but 8 or 10 is equal to a muscle toner 2... Which it provides way more then, including a very elusive body boost.
It should be in the range of 16-20, The forbidden part is arguable.

I could accept as high as 12, but 16 to 20 is just ridiculous considering that it is only 1 point of boost to those attributes. Even going to all physicals, 1 point is not worth an availability like that when there are no higher ratings.

I'd probably allowed legit licenses for such job descriptions like "security contractors". For simplicity's sake I'd assume that the organization in question had offered a purchase plan and the PC has already paid the ware off with money earned between the date of him leaving the organization and the start of the campaign. However the organization should be expected to come up at least semi-regularly as an employer and I'd suggest picking the "records on file" quality for that PC. For example a former FBI agent should expect a fair amount of UCAS gov runs, a former SAS soldier might get called up when MI6 wants something done in his neck of the woods and so on. So the campaign would tend towards a specific theme.

Just to throw this in here real quick:
Under SR3, there was no forbidden or restricted Bioware AT ALL as far as i remember.
Because all Bioware is inherently inert, nothing you can really control, nothing that is, in itself, dangerouzs for other people.

No, that's not the case. My copy of Man & Machine lists the following bioware implants as restricted, subject to a permit:
Adrenal Pump; Muscle Augmentation; Muscle Toner; Orthoskin; Suprathyroid Gland; Damage Compensator; Pain Editor; Synaptic Accelerator.
Chemical Glands are totally forbidden (no permit available).

You remember rather wrongly. Man & Machine, p. 156 lists restricted codes for:
Adrenal Pumps, Chemical Glands, Muscle Augmentation and Toner, Suprathyroid Gland, Damage Compensators, Pain Editors and Synaptic Accelerators.
Edit: Ninja'ed ^^


In regards to forbidden cyberware: Don't get caught. It's not that easy anways to see that you have a suprathyroid gland and testing for it takes a certain time. Be subtle and you won't get hurt.
If you decide to flaunt your cyberarm gyromount ... expect to get busted.

No numerical availability is (in theory) based on how easily such an item can be purchased on the black market. If an item can be bought at every corner the value will be - or low, if only very few vendors stock that item the value will be high.
The letter codes simply determine what happens if you are caught with the item. No one bothers about items without a letter, people having restricted items will be asked more or less politely to produce a permit, and those with a forbidden item will face legal consequences (ranging from a fine to very long prison sentences and possibly even capital punishment).

Coming back to the initial question. If the character was outfitted with a forbidden item during his employment such an item will most likely be removed upon honorable discharge/termination of contract. Who pays for the removal is up to the individual contract. I doubt any employer would let any former employ run around as a criminal.

@EKBT81: The thing is an F means that no natural person can obtain a license for such an item.
Most employers would possibly simply avoid giving such items to employees, especially if removal involves surgery.

I agree though that the decisions which items are freely available and which are forbidden, are really weird: bone density augmentation for everyone, bone lacing for no one but criminals.

A few things seem to be really big inflicters of the "Forbidden" attribute.

MAD Undetectability / Collapsibility / Concealability
Intended for "Military" Usage
"High Velocity" Weapons
All Heavy Weapons
Powerful Explosives
Lethal Exotic Weapons (Even Garrotes! They have a 0F availability!)
Security Bypassing Tools
Lethal Cyber Weapons
Damage Reduction / Wound Ignoring Gear
Pheremones
LAVs
Vectored Thrust
Electronic Warfare

With the Suprathyroid, I think the thing that makes it Forbidden is the bonus to Body. Plenty of other 'ware boosts Strength, Agility, and Reaction without being rated Forbidden, and increased Body helps mitigate damage, putting it in the same camp as things like Pain Editors and Damage Compensators (although strangely things like Platelate Factories aren't even R rating).

~Umi

I basically take the view that unless you do certain things to advertise... it's unlikely most bioware will be noticed at all even by anything except extremely skilled assensers or heavy duty medical tests.

Cyberware though is another can of worms altogether... why are you setting of metal detectors going through security check points? cyberware scanners? Assensing checks...


As far as the comment... 'F' doesn't mean illegal to everyone. The police can have 'F' items, as can corps, govts, military... it just means random Joe off the street can't get it.

It's also one of the reasons I like modular limbs... no officer that wasn't me on the tape... see I don't have a gyro built into in the arm... look in the scanner... all legit and and I have permits for it all.


And here I thought the suprathyroid was just the latest craze in dieting.. now I can eat all I want and not gain a pound and without resorting to those god awful slim-soy shakes!

If you are addressing my comment, I wrote natural persons, neither of your thrree examples is a natural person.

An individual employed by either of the three or a couple of other entities, may use the forbidden item possibly even outside of the premises of his employer, but he may not own that item.

Honestly here I'd call on the individual GM to exercise his prerogative to change setting elements like the legality of various gear to something more sensible. Especially since the inconsistencies in legality ratings (like the bone density augmentation/bone lacing example) have already been pointed out.
There are also weird changes between editions: Tailored pheromones were 100% legal in SR3, SR4 made them forbidden.
Also, if the GM is on board with a "quasi-legal" campaign, a former corp/gov agent could conceivably "incorporate" as his own security firm, certainly so if he still maintains good relations with his former employer. Although, as I've said before, that would probably influence the campaign to a greater or lesser extent. (I'm thinking somewhat like the relation between McCall and "Control" in The Equalizer.)

Might I suggest ...


Use Restricted Gear as necessary, along with SINner (take both varieties for your Real and Fake-Criminal Identities), and purchase a Fake SIN, this fake representing your Cover/Runner Identity. Add on a Contact designated as your Handler for LS and a series of Burner Comlinks. You could also take Wanted to highten the illusion of being an Ex-Star left one step ahead of the heat with all of that wizer 'ware.

Thus you aren't actually an Ex- anything, you are still active just undercover.

Clear with GM. Enter Walking Plot Device.

The really bad part with Bone Lacing being "F" rated is that someone who has it from the time periods that were covered by older editions quite legally are suddenly stuck as law-breakers now.



That's the "Dietware" implant.

Well, laws change, and what was legal before is illegal afterwards (For example, the banning of marijuana in the US. A week before it passed, have all you want! Afterwards, "Put the cuffs on 'em, boys.") ... so that part's fine.

That said?

Bone augmentations and cyberskellies need to have their legalities rejiggered. There are quite a few items, really, that I want to get under the hood of and correct, either for cost, performance, or availability/legality.

the new edition may fix some of that =S

With availability and legality, one of the best things to do is make the "F" rating exceedingly rare and reserved for the most high-end and expensive of mil-spec gear (ratings over 6, jet fighters and things like that).

This would mean that among other things all drugs could be legally obtained. This is just as ridiculous as the bone lacing/ bone density augmentation thing

The MilSPec stuff certainly, but defining that is the trick.

For instance, pretty much all firearms should be Restricted, but anything that can unleash full auto should be Forbidden. Melee weapons vary... knives are legal, as are bats (But you can be hassled for taking them in certain areas, natch), tasers are fine, but a Katana is Restricted for obvious reasons.

There are a bunch of little things, like how you can buy a taser that can be used as a melee-focused stunstick, which is cheaper than a similar stunstick that can't shoot. And does more damage, IIRC. CYbernetic weapons having an Availability so high that street thugs can't get them, when they kind of define the genre's "Out of control cyberpunks" side.

Lil' things.

Look inside the parentheses of the post you quoted, Wak. Examples are given there for things worthy of "F" rating. Less than that, and it shouldn't be "F".

I would add things like non-commercial explosives (incl. rocket launchers and hand grenades), certain drugs and toxins, and mind-control stuff like PABs or mind-control Spells.

Possibly, but the "mind control stuff" thing just sounds like a bias against those things to me.

depends what you mean by mind control.

for example, a spell that makes you have an orgasm... probably not illegal (although using it on someone without their permission likely is).
the spell that makes you obey the caster even if the caster tells you to shoot yourself in the head... probably not legal to teach outside of military or equivalent organizations (and even then, for PR reasons most of them likely won't admit they have or use it). it has no lasting benefits that could be used to claim it has legitimate use for the private sector.

We'll have to disagree on that one, I feel. Things like combat jets are no-brainers, but not the limit. I don't set the bar to zero, but I'd set it far lower than you, I think. My mental legislators are less "Detroit's gone to Hell, who cares?" and more worried housewives. They stomp things out quickly, which has teh side effect of making some of them edgy and cool, which allows corps to make money.

They like the people afraid and nervous, not armed and angry. Revolutions are terrible for profit margins. (Well. Unless you're Ares. Even then, don't drek in your own yard.)

Before you set a standard you need to know what standard you're adhering to.
Are we looking for the standard of guns blazing pink mohawk, mad max with a side of mayhem?
or mirror shades downtown hong kong don't spit on the street?

Except poison spit glands, of course.

A little off topic, but I expect unless it was the latest encryption hardware or SOTA you would walk out of the Military with nearly every thing and the licenses for it.

Cyberware would be a major tool for enlistment and reenlistment.
The cyberware is going to be a fraction of the cost of training a soldier.
The longer you commit to stay in the more they are willing to provide.

Instead of going in to the Air force to lean how to fly you would be going in to learn how to fly and get a VCR.
I'm sure skill wires would also be popular with the military.

Most vets go in to the reserves/national guard and could be called up later.
They are certainly going to have any licensing requirement and fees waived as long as they are in the reserves.
So they have to keep their ware.

Vets also go in to the police force, Doc Wagon, and fire departments after their enlistment.
Riggers would also be in high demand.
Even if they are joining a private firms, having the ware makes them much better at their jobs and way less likely to get injured.
And a smartgun link will help prevent a lot of injuries and lawsuits.
Everyone wins.


Plus having the ware means companies are going to be trying to recruit you after enlistment.
Once more a great enlistment and retention tool.


Could you image what it would be like to go from a high grade optical suite to a plain old set of cyber eyes?

I also serious doubt that you want to go back to natural eye. No vid, no image link, needing sunglasses, going to need glasses. Hayfever and smog red eye.
Plus the hard ware would be at least a decade old.

Wired 1, a data jack, and a good set of cybereyes is under 30,000.

Add in the fact that the ware is likely at least a decade old and you would have to cover the cost of the surgery and recovery...
It is just not worth it when it can be used to retain a fully trained soldier for a couple of more years.

Which also means that at least basic cyberware is going to be fairly common.

Great enlistment tool? Sure. Great retention tool? Not on your life.

Why not? Include some quality of life stuff after X amount of service (get a math SPU after your first tour, earn 10,000 credits towards an upgrade of your choice per year, 50% discount on upgrading your wired reflexes while in active service, etc.)

Also, why spring for cybereyes and a smartgun link when a pair of goggles is just as good, but can be passed from one soldier to another? Why go with Wired 1 when you can just use auto-injectors and Jazz? Datajacks are useless... instead of 30,000 for that soldier package, you can do a couple shots of Jazz and some smartgoggles for, what, 500? A thousand tops?

Much better use of funding.

actually drugs would be less likely than the surgery since they can have a higher detrimental effect & possibly get a soldier killed in the field, Militaries spend millions on getting soldiers trained properly & one bad dose of a drug can cause them to lose a 50k investment in a single soldier because of their own fault.

Wrong... drug costs are cheap as all get out... your stock basic grade PBI has to compete with things like a doberman drone in terms of cost.

Remember grunts are cheap... especially when dealing with soviet doctrine type stuff. Hopping them up with combat drugs now and then isn't going to get them hooked... and if you burnout 1 or 2 now and then.. there's tons of sinless who'd jump at the chance for 3 squares a day and a bunk.


Cyberware if installed can be removed easily as well... secondhand Wired Ref 1 anyone? Yeah it leaves an essence hole... but it does save on costs.

Though folks with continuing military relation might be a nice touch... but that'll probably only be for senior enlisted and officers.

i'd say many military organizations would leave at least some 'ware in.

if you got cybereyes through the military (probably a fairly popular choice for mages), they're not going to dig them out.

on the other hand, i don't think they're going to let you keep something like a bioware implant that manufactures C-4, or an injector needle connected to a nanohive loaded up with grey goo.

Well, i could image a basic loadout for cheap "soviet-style" grunts would consist of a used datajack, used skillwires 3, a camo suit, goggles 3 (image link, smartlink, low-light), a (cheap) commlink and an AK-147 (auto-adjusting weight, external smartlink). All this costs 6425 + commlink. For another 5500 nY, one could add used Wired Reflexes 1.

Mostly because you said the companies will be trying to recruit them. The military may have some great enlistment bonuses but any company can beat the pants off of them if they want to recruit you. Therefor, the recruits will be sniped by the companies after 1 term. It happens a lot in the U.S. right now, and all you get is training.

Something you may find interesting, the U.S. military already uses drugs to up the combat capabilities of their pilots.

Nothing new... we've been using combat drugs for decades now.

I know for certain back as far as WW2... maybe even before that.


So 5,500 or a few hours off a $10 combat popper inhaler. I know which I'd go with... especially if the troops are wearing biomonitors and you can monitor for addiction problems. (serves as a good excuse to get rid of the 'undesirables' as well to boot them out for the next batch of hobo's).

Yuppers. Cheap and disposable are the watchwords for all but the elite, really. You can start waving them around as rewards for re-upping, or as a sign that someone's graduated to special forces instead of being a grunt. Don't invest big bucks in someone unless you know that they're talented and going to stick around for a long while. If you're not sure, go low.

ALways hurts when your quarter-million-nuyen ace gets fragged by a half dozen teenagers with AK-97's on Kamakaze.

Thank you all for the opinions.

We went a little off-topic, but was very helpfull.

Yeah Sage... while we went a little off...

For the creme de la creme elite units. Yes they have augmentations (just look at the profession rating 5&6 NPCs and HTR)... and augmentations they can probably keep if it's higher grade stuff (at standard level you start to wonder why not harvest it and install it secondhand into the next batch of hobos). But most of them are going to be inflicted with something akin to an 'in for life' negative quality (don't recall if SR has this one or not... but it's in a lot of game systems). Part of the price they pay for getting all those expensive augmentations is they're expected to have a lot of loyalty to the unit. A serious part of your backstory should be why you did go 'rogue'. And then a wanted/records on file/enemy negative quality might make a lot of sense.

If he reached old age... or hit the end of a 10 year enlistment... or got his '20 year military retirement' if that's still in the game it's a slightly different question. In those cases... though I'd be wondering why the character doesn't have a SINNER and 'trust fund' type quality. And if he does... what is his motivation for running.

Generally the view is though once you sign on with a corp you're in for life unless you do something to get yourself kicked out (if not killed... you're one of their citizens... welcome to the borg). Or somehow get extracted by another corp to be inducted into their collective instead.


Another take is something like lone star/knight errant... might not offer the equipment for free... but they might subsidize it enough that you can buy it for a discount and explain why you have it and a license... and beat cops don't necessarily stick with the corp forever. Though once again... something like 'records on file' negative quality should be in the cards.

I agree. I have been developing the character concept for a couple of weeks, and only when I sat down to try to transform those words in game statistics that my doubts appeared.

I haven't entered into the detais becuse I wanted to ask specific questions, instead of ... well, wondering off, hehehe.

To add a little more detail of what I have in mind for him, his résumé:

US Marine Corps – 3 years (enlisted)
Psychology Masters Degree (Business minor) – 3 years
FBI – Special Agent – 2 years
FBI - Hostage Rescue Team – 4 years
FBI - Crisis Negotiation Unit – 3 years

So, regarding the qualities I have in mind, composing a "paladin type" (you get the D&D reference...):

(+) First Impression;
(+) Guts;
(+) High Pain Tolerance 2;
(-) Day Job [Security Consultant] 10 hours/week;
(-) Records on File [Can be FBI, Lone Star etc.];
(-) Siner [Standard];
(-) Vendetta;
(-) Enemy (2/4).

He will, at first, have a defensive behaviour, developing contacts, getting surounded by competent people. He will be arrassed by his enemies, but in the long run he will take the fight to the enemy, confronting, exposing whatever he discovered, and that motivated his "extraction"/"retirement".

Lone Star started requiring all officers to get implanted comm radios and smartgun links, back in ... '54 or so.

It didn't go over well, IIRC.