How do you deal with forbidden cyberware?, If your character has forbidden/restricted stuff implanted Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Sage2000]

I am building a new character, and he is an ex-SWAT (probably from the FBI equivalent, but could be Lone Star SWAT).

I realised it would make sense that he had some standard cyberware, including plastic bone lacing, wired reflexes, smartlink and such. Them it hit me: if a character has some cyberware that fits his background, and it is forbidden/restricted, how should we deal with this?

I know that, in game terms, it's all about fake SINs plus fake licences. But how about a legit permit? Afterall there was an organization that legaly implanted the stuff on the character and obviously, in most cases, it would not be easly remmoved without serious side effects.

I guess the same would happen if your character was some sort of military "special ops". In the Shadowrun world you would have lots of military grade stuff (say, cyberarms with ennhancements for example) that (I think) would not necessary be removed from you if you quit.

Just wondering if anyone thought about this, how to integrate background stories and the rules in this case. As a side note I am not looking for ways to circunvent game balance, I do think we should pay the "in game price" for everything, aways.

[Epicedion]

I am building a new character, and he is an ex-SWAT (probably from the FBI equivalent, but could be Lone Star SWAT).

I realised it would make sense that he had some standard cyberware, including plastic bone lacing, wired reflexes, smartlink and such. Them it hit me: if a character has some cyberware that fits his background, and it is forbidden/restricted, how should we deal with this?

I know that, in game terms, it's all about fake SINs plus fake licences. But how about a legit permit? Afterall there was an organization that legaly implanted the stuff on the character and obviously, in most cases, it would not be easly remmoved without serious side effects.

I guess the same would happen if your character was some sort of military "special ops". In the Shadowrun world you would have lots of military grade stuff (say, cyberarms with ennhancements for example) that (I think) would not necessary be removed from you if you quit.

Just wondering if anyone thought about this, how to integrate background stories and the rules in this case. As a side note I am not looking for ways to circunvent game balance, I do think we should pay the "in game price" for everything, aways.

For the most part you couldn't expect to hang onto this stuff legally after your employment. Organizations aren't just going to let expensive 'ware float off, they're going to reclaim it. Governments aren't going to let you walk off with your rocket cyberarms (headline: "former ATF agent uses government-installed cyberware to massacre city block, news at 11").

If your employment ends on good terms, there should be a clause for dangerous cyberware removal. If it ends on bad terms and you steal all your cyber, you should find yourself as a wanted criminal.

[UmaroVI]

(headline: "former ATF agent uses government-installed cyberware to massacre city block, news at 11").

"Former ATF agent uses Suprathyroid gland to eat more; improve health: news at 2:30"

[yesferatu]

Restricted Gear Quality
Cost: 5 BP
The character knows just the right person to get ahold of that
one elusive piece of restricted gear or miltech weaponry she really
needed. Every time the character takes this quality at character
creation (max 3 times), she may exceptionally buy a piece of gear
with an Availability of up to 20. The character may also save the
quality to buy one such item during play.

You get busted using it for anything or really even having it. two things will happen.
1. They run your ID - real or fake
2. You clear it or you don't

Unless you are currently working for law enforcement or have a convincing license that says you are, you're probably screwed.
The only way to legally have Forbidden gear is to have a day job that makes it legal.

[Wakshaani]

Well, Restricted Gear is just that ... Restricted. You *can* get permits for it, and being a police officer or bodyguard is perfectly fine rationalization.

Forbidden gear, however, is *never* legal.

Compare it to, say, having a pistol (Have a permit for that? \\ Yeah \\ Okay, have a nice day.) to having an assault shotgun ( Your ass had BEST have a permit for that!) to having a cannister of Smallpox (There is no permit in the WORLD for that.) ... the latter you might get away with in a super-secure lab with huge reduncdancies, but if it ever got outside, you're mulch.

So, try using only standard and restricted gear, stay away from Forbidden, and you should be fine.

[All4BigGuns]

So, try using only standard and restricted gear, stay away from Forbidden, and you should be fine.

Some things don't make sense to me to be Forbidden like Suprathyroid. There is absolutely no good reason for it to have that "F" tag.

[Lionhearted]

Maybe it got some nasty long term side effects making it unfit for public consumption...
Some things are illegal for other reasons then being conducive to violence (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

Maybe it got some nasty long term side effects making it unfit for public consumption...
Some things are illegal for other reasons then being conducive to violence (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There are none in the description of the implant--not any "nasty" ones anyway--and if it's not in the description it doesn't exist. Only side-effect is it makes one eat more, and that is not a valid reason for it to be Forbidden--the numerical availability is simply ludicrous as well. Period. Full stop.

[UmaroVI]

Not to mention, Move By Wire does, in fact, explicitly have very nasty side effects, but only Rating 3 of it is Forbidden. The availability and legality system is just derped up in general.

[All4BigGuns]

A more fitting Availability for the Suprathyroid would probably be anywhere from 8 to 10 (for the numerical value) and possibly going to "R" (though even that has little if any real justification behind it).

[Lionhearted]

Uhm, I think the availability is based on the stats it grant, ware generally grant +1 attribute point per 5 availability points. 20F might be a bit harsh but 8 or 10 is equal to a muscle toner 2... Which it provides way more then, including a very elusive body boost.
It should be in the range of 16-20, The forbidden part is arguable.

[All4BigGuns]

Uhm, I think the availability is based on the stats it grant, ware generally grant +1 attribute point per 5 availability points. 20F might be a bit harsh but 8 or 10 is equal to a muscle toner 2... Which it provides way more then, including a very elusive body boost.
It should be in the range of 16-20, The forbidden part is arguable.

I could accept as high as 12, but 16 to 20 is just ridiculous considering that it is only 1 point of boost to those attributes. Even going to all physicals, 1 point is not worth an availability like that when there are no higher ratings.

[EKBT81]

But how about a legit permit? Afterall there was an organization that legaly implanted the stuff on the character and obviously, in most cases, it would not be easly remmoved without serious side effects.

I guess the same would happen if your character was some sort of military "special ops". In the Shadowrun world you would have lots of military grade stuff (say, cyberarms with ennhancements for example) that (I think) would not necessary be removed from you if you quit.

Just wondering if anyone thought about this, how to integrate background stories and the rules in this case. As a side note I am not looking for ways to circunvent game balance, I do think we should pay the "in game price" for everything, aways.

I'd probably allowed legit licenses for such job descriptions like "security contractors". For simplicity's sake I'd assume that the organization in question had offered a purchase plan and the PC has already paid the ware off with money earned between the date of him leaving the organization and the start of the campaign. However the organization should be expected to come up at least semi-regularly as an employer and I'd suggest picking the "records on file" quality for that PC. For example a former FBI agent should expect a fair amount of UCAS gov runs, a former SAS soldier might get called up when MI6 wants something done in his neck of the woods and so on. So the campaign would tend towards a specific theme.

[Stahlseele]

Just to throw this in here real quick:
Under SR3, there was no forbidden or restricted Bioware AT ALL as far as i remember.
Because all Bioware is inherently inert, nothing you can really control, nothing that is, in itself, dangerouzs for other people.

[EKBT81]

Under SR3, there was no forbidden or restricted Bioware AT ALL as far as i remember.

No, that's not the case. My copy of Man & Machine lists the following bioware implants as restricted, subject to a permit:
Adrenal Pump; Muscle Augmentation; Muscle Toner; Orthoskin; Suprathyroid Gland; Damage Compensator; Pain Editor; Synaptic Accelerator.
Chemical Glands are totally forbidden (no permit available).

[bannockburn]

You remember rather wrongly. Man & Machine, p. 156 lists restricted codes for:
Adrenal Pumps, Chemical Glands, Muscle Augmentation and Toner, Suprathyroid Gland, Damage Compensators, Pain Editors and Synaptic Accelerators.
Edit: Ninja'ed ^^


In regards to forbidden cyberware: Don't get caught. It's not that easy anways to see that you have a suprathyroid gland and testing for it takes a certain time. Be subtle and you won't get hurt.
If you decide to flaunt your cyberarm gyromount ... expect to get busted. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Uhm, I think the availability is based on the stats it grant, ware generally grant +1 attribute point per 5 availability points. 20F might be a bit harsh but 8 or 10 is equal to a muscle toner 2... Which it provides way more then, including a very elusive body boost.
It should be in the range of 16-20, The forbidden part is arguable.

No numerical availability is (in theory) based on how easily such an item can be purchased on the black market. If an item can be bought at every corner the value will be - or low, if only very few vendors stock that item the value will be high.
The letter codes simply determine what happens if you are caught with the item. No one bothers about items without a letter, people having restricted items will be asked more or less politely to produce a permit, and those with a forbidden item will face legal consequences (ranging from a fine to very long prison sentences and possibly even capital punishment).

Coming back to the initial question. If the character was outfitted with a forbidden item during his employment such an item will most likely be removed upon honorable discharge/termination of contract. Who pays for the removal is up to the individual contract. I doubt any employer would let any former employ run around as a criminal.

@EKBT81: The thing is an F means that no natural person can obtain a license for such an item.
Most employers would possibly simply avoid giving such items to employees, especially if removal involves surgery.

I agree though that the decisions which items are freely available and which are forbidden, are really weird: bone density augmentation for everyone, bone lacing for no one but criminals.

[Umidori]

A few things seem to be really big inflicters of the "Forbidden" attribute.

MAD Undetectability / Collapsibility / Concealability
Intended for "Military" Usage
"High Velocity" Weapons
All Heavy Weapons
Powerful Explosives
Lethal Exotic Weapons (Even Garrotes! They have a 0F availability!)
Security Bypassing Tools
Lethal Cyber Weapons
Damage Reduction / Wound Ignoring Gear
Pheremones
LAVs
Vectored Thrust
Electronic Warfare

With the Suprathyroid, I think the thing that makes it Forbidden is the bonus to Body. Plenty of other 'ware boosts Strength, Agility, and Reaction without being rated Forbidden, and increased Body helps mitigate damage, putting it in the same camp as things like Pain Editors and Damage Compensators (although strangely things like Platelate Factories aren't even R rating).

~Umi

[Falconer]

I basically take the view that unless you do certain things to advertise... it's unlikely most bioware will be noticed at all even by anything except extremely skilled assensers or heavy duty medical tests.

Cyberware though is another can of worms altogether... why are you setting of metal detectors going through security check points? cyberware scanners? Assensing checks...


As far as the comment... 'F' doesn't mean illegal to everyone. The police can have 'F' items, as can corps, govts, military... it just means random Joe off the street can't get it.

It's also one of the reasons I like modular limbs... no officer that wasn't me on the tape... see I don't have a gyro built into in the arm... look in the scanner... all legit and and I have permits for it all.


And here I thought the suprathyroid was just the latest craze in dieting.. now I can eat all I want and not gain a pound and without resorting to those god awful slim-soy shakes!

[Dakka Dakka]

As far as the comment... 'F' doesn't mean illegal to everyone. The police can have 'F' items, as can corps, govts, military... it just means random Joe off the street can't get it.

If you are addressing my comment, I wrote natural persons, neither of your thrree examples is a natural person.

An individual employed by either of the three or a couple of other entities, may use the forbidden item possibly even outside of the premises of his employer, but he may not own that item.

[EKBT81]

Honestly here I'd call on the individual GM to exercise his prerogative to change setting elements like the legality of various gear to something more sensible. Especially since the inconsistencies in legality ratings (like the bone density augmentation/bone lacing example) have already been pointed out.
There are also weird changes between editions: Tailored pheromones were 100% legal in SR3, SR4 made them forbidden. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)
Also, if the GM is on board with a "quasi-legal" campaign, a former corp/gov agent could conceivably "incorporate" as his own security firm, certainly so if he still maintains good relations with his former employer. Although, as I've said before, that would probably influence the campaign to a greater or lesser extent. (I'm thinking somewhat like the relation between McCall and "Control" in The Equalizer.)

[Shaidar]

Might I suggest ...

Deep Cover
Cost: 5 or 10 BP
 The Deep Cover character is not who she says she is. She might not even be who she thinks she is.  Through engram manipulation and training, her actual identity is buried under layers of false memories and impressions—even a Mind Probe spell can’t crack her cover, because she sincerely believes she is the person she presents herself to be. For 5 BP, this quality simply preserves her “real” personality from coming forward, letting her act in deep cover until a trigger—an image, a series of numbers, a phrase—lets her snap back and spill her guts; a second trigger puts her real self back to sleep. For 10 BP, she knows what both triggers are, and can set things up to bring herself in and out of deep cover on her schedule, no one else’s.  The player should work with his or her gamemaster to define the character’s true personality, why she is in Deep Cover, and for whom she works.

Use Restricted Gear as necessary, along with SINner (take both varieties for your Real and Fake-Criminal Identities), and purchase a Fake SIN, this fake representing your Cover/Runner Identity. Add on a Contact designated as your Handler for LS and a series of Burner Comlinks. You could also take Wanted to highten the illusion of being an Ex-Star left one step ahead of the heat with all of that wizer 'ware.

Thus you aren't actually an Ex- anything, you are still active just undercover.

Clear with GM. Enter Walking Plot Device.

[All4BigGuns]

I agree though that the decisions which items are freely available and which are forbidden, are really weird: bone density augmentation for everyone, bone lacing for no one but criminals.

The really bad part with Bone Lacing being "F" rated is that someone who has it from the time periods that were covered by older editions quite legally are suddenly stuck as law-breakers now.

And here I thought the suprathyroid was just the latest craze in dieting.. now I can eat all I want and not gain a pound and without resorting to those god awful slim-soy shakes!

That's the "Dietware" implant.

[Wakshaani]

Well, laws change, and what was legal before is illegal afterwards (For example, the banning of marijuana in the US. A week before it passed, have all you want! Afterwards, "Put the cuffs on 'em, boys.") ... so that part's fine.

That said?

Bone augmentations and cyberskellies need to have their legalities rejiggered. There are quite a few items, really, that I want to get under the hood of and correct, either for cost, performance, or availability/legality.

[Jaid]

There are quite a few items, really, that I want to get under the hood of and correct, either for cost, performance, or availability/legality.

the new edition may fix some of that =S