Question on Empathy software, it can't be that broken Options

[hermit]

SINs would work a lot better if they were capped at 10, not 6.

[Garvel]

Stahl.. yes it was a 50% improvement... But the character in question did not dumpstat charisma (soft maxed human-looking orc). Maxed out the skills in chargen (rating 4 skillgroups).

Compare above character to a full fledged pornomancer. 30 dice between adept powers... tailored pheromones, etc. etc. etc. plus empathy software. My point was that I didn't consider it a broken example running the software on an internal response 4 commlink. (no trying to cheese it out and run it right on the cybereyes for example... something I think is possible but only if the empathy is rewritten specifically to run on that model cybereye peripheral...).


Lets look at other examples though... rating 6 medkit anyone? Where's the outrage there +6 dice and use the skill untrained. There is other equipment in the game which adds it's rating 1-6 to assorted tests.


Your outrage isn't at empathy (excepting emotipets), it's at the system as a whole. Your outrage is at a system where people can easily pull twice as many dice from an attribute as the skill, then get equipment to equal the skill. So by the end of the day only a quarter of the dice are coming from skill as opposed to other sources.

SR5 is already addressing this... skills now going 1-12. Equipment becoming a precision type thing instead of extra dice is the general gist of the little we've been shown so far.

Hermit:
Yeah I loved that short film when others linked it earlier...

No the problem is that 6 dice is for to many. If the smartgun system gave 6 dice it would be broken. If the emoti software gave 2 dice it wouldnt be broken.

And the 6 dice from the medkit are not for an opposed test, where one character rolls against another. They are for a first aid test with a treshhold that is ballanced so that the character needs a high rating medkit to have a chance to heal at least a little damage.
If you have no skill and average logic and get the usual dice modifier for bad circumstances, and a patient that is either awakened or has implants, you usually end up with 6 dice. Now you roll on average 2 succeses and have healed exactly 0 boxes of damage and wasted the chance of someone with a higher skillrating to first aid the patient succesfull. Congratulations.

That a hightech medkit gives a significant advantage at saving people is plausible. That a high end matrixprogram gives a significant advantage at hacking is plausible. That antidote gives you a significant advantage for surviving poison is plasible too. Here the six bonus dice are justified.

But 6 bonus dice for social tests which are usually opposed, thats simply too much.

As stated before that is the difference between charisma 1 and 7.
I could totally see such a program make someone with charisma 1 as succesful as someone with charisma 3. But not charisma 7. That is simply too much.

[JanessaVR]

Some people actually do question stuff that is in the books.
For example, both fluff AND crunch make it impossible to be a shadowrunner using a fake sin . .

Yeah, I always had a bit of an issue with that myself. Didn't someone have a thread some years back about a revised system for fake ID, with the higher quality fakes being a lot more expensive, and taking a lot more time to setup?

[Stahlseele]

simple fix:
make the level of the ID the treshhold the scanner has to achieve in net hits to detect that it's fake.
just needs to make the id's much more expensive.
and the scanners too, of course.

[Garvel]

We houseruled it that you compare SIN and Scanner like you compare initiative:
You roll, and then add the successes to the base rating. Then you compare who has the higher value.

This way the rating 2 scanners in the shoping mall are no problem for your rating 6 SIN, but the rating 5 scanner at the airport can still be.

[bannockburn]

We houseruled it that you compare SIN and Scanner like you compare initiative:
You roll, and then add the successes to the base rating. Then you compare who has the higher value.

This way the rating 2 scanners in the shoping mall are no problem for your rating 6 SIN, but the rating 5 scanner at the airport can still be.

I like that!
*yoink*

[hermit]

We houseruled it that you compare SIN and Scanner like you compare initiative:
You roll, and then add the successes to the base rating. Then you compare who has the higher value.

This way the rating 2 scanners in the shoping mall are no problem for your rating 6 SIN, but the rating 5 scanner at the airport can still be.

That's a good fix.

[ShadowDragon8685]

We houseruled it that you compare SIN and Scanner like you compare initiative:
You roll, and then add the successes to the base rating. Then you compare who has the higher value.

This way the rating 2 scanners in the shoping mall are no problem for your rating 6 SIN, but the rating 5 scanner at the airport can still be.

Oh, I'm going to have to suggest that to my group.



re: Empathy Software, I like to think of it as being like the CASIE aug from Deus Ex.

[KarmaInferno]

This is relevant to the conversation.




-k

[FuelDrop]

We houseruled it that you compare SIN and Scanner like you compare initiative:
You roll, and then add the successes to the base rating. Then you compare who has the higher value.

This way the rating 2 scanners in the shoping mall are no problem for your rating 6 SIN, but the rating 5 scanner at the airport can still be.

Jumping on the band-wagon and saying that this seems like a very good system.

[Novocrane]

re: Empathy Software, I like to think of it as being like the CASIE aug from Deus Ex.

If someone has the emphasis "Empathy Software" in a social skill, they can effectively cut you off as you attempt to follow notes?

[All4BigGuns]

No the problem is that 6 dice is for to many. If the smartgun system gave 6 dice it would be broken. If the emoti software gave 2 dice it wouldnt be broken.

No, it's not. Not in the slightest. In order to use Empathy Software at that rating, you have to get the most powerful Response module and System rating listed in the core book--in fact, the most powerful until the military grade versions in War! came out--and as such, you're paying far more for that bonus from the software than you are for the bonus that a smartlink grants.

Now the emotitoys could be considered a bit broken given their much cheaper price, but that's why the only thing I would use those little drones for is for 'flavor' purposes, maybe as little innocuous reconnaissance units.

[SpellBinder]

Empathy 6 with Optimization 3 will run at full power on a DV 3 commlink, and a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a commlink powerful enough to run it otherwise.

[All4BigGuns]

Empathy 6 with Optimization 3 will run at full power on a DV 3 commlink, and a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a commlink powerful enough to run it otherwise.

It's program type isn't one of those on the list of things that can take program options, so no, that method won't work.

Only Common Use (p. 232, SR4A), Hacking (p. 233, SR4A),
Autosoft (p. 246, SR4A, and p. 112), and Simsense programs (including
BTLs and skillso s) may be equipped with program options.

[hermit]

No, it's not. Not in the slightest. In order to use Empathy Software at that rating, you have to get the most powerful Response module and System rating listed in the core book--in fact, the most powerful until the military grade versions in War!

That is plain nonsense. All you need is to walk into an Electronics Emporium and shell out 600 Nuyen for a rating 6 EmoToy. And EmoSoft doesn't need military grade systems to run. In fact, it runs fine on unrated systems, because software ratings in SR4 are broken like that.

It's program type isn't one of those on the list of things that can take program options, so no, that method won't work.

You should read the relevant book, All4.

[bannockburn]

Let's add it up then, shall we?
First: You don't need response 6 for running a rating 6 program. So, we'll take a runner's commlink of average cost, let's say the Hermes Ikon at 3000 nuyen. Add on an OS with a system rating of 4 and upgrade that to 6
Novatech Navi, an additional 1,5k. System 6, 3000 nuyen. We're now at a whopping investment of 7500 nuyen. Add in the actual software at 3000 nuyen, and you've got 10,5k nuyen invested for a commlink capable of running your Empathy Software rating 6 and the program.
And we will also ignore optimization for the moment, because, honestly, just about every runner wants to run rating 6 programs, for encryption purposes at the very least.

Now, let's see what else there is that adds up to this kind of bonus.
Medkits? Sure. I think the story is kind of different there, though. They help in keeping your team stitched together (and thus assist in actually having the game) and aren't something you use all the time for 4-6 different skills (depending on reading).
Let's take something to resist damage, then. This is used often, right? We have ... a max bonus of +4 to damage resistance tests with bone density augmentation, clocking in at 80k, AND 1,2 essence. Available at character creation, like the commlink, but almost eight times as expensive. Ceramic Bone lacing (available at creation, unlike titanium) adds 4 dice as well, though 2 of those can be circumvented by AP weaponry. Still double the price of the commlink at over 20k.
Yes, there is a huge bonus at a relatively low investment. Even without considering MooDragon™, your rightful overlord, which sets you back between 600 and 2600 nuyen. The cost at least, because there is no pricetag on owning MooDragon™.
Also, 7,5k of these 10,5k are usable for A LOT of other things as well.

[All4BigGuns]

The cost of the 'toy drones' is indicative of a problem with Empathy Software itself. If one is going to house rule or ban something, make it the 'toy drone' if anything since it's obvious that's where people's problem lies (since that tends to be what everyone jumps immediately to every time it gets brought up).

As to the 'read the relevant book' line, I did. I quoted Unwired on what program types may receive Program Options. Sensor Software is not among those.

[hermit]

As to the 'read the relevant book' line, I did. I quoted Unwired on what program types may receive Program Options. Sensor Software is not among those.

You did not, then. Because the relevant book is Arsenal.

For reference: Unwired deals with Matrix programs. Those can have options and take up commlink slots and all that. Sensor software runs in sensors and does not take up slots. You can run the EmoSoft in a camera, or a cybereye. You can even run it in your commlink's camera. There's no rating limit on what you can run either.

[SpellBinder]

Let's add it up then, shall we?
First: You don't need response 6 for running a rating 6 program. So, we'll take a runner's commlink of average cost, let's say the Hermes Ikon at 3000 nuyen. Add on an OS with a system rating of 4 and upgrade that to 6
...

From SR4a, page 222, under System:
"System limits the rating of programs running on the device, and sets the limit on most devices for the number of programs that can be run without a Response drop. The System program is limited by the base Response rating of the device it is on: if the base Response rating of the device is lower than the System rating, then the System rating is set to equal the Response rating."

Your Response 4, System 6 commlink is running as if it's Response 4, System 4 and all your software without Optimization will run at a rating of 4 at best.

[All4BigGuns]

I used the appropriate source to counter the point involving Program Options.

[bannockburn]

From SR4a, page 222, under System:
"System limits the rating of programs running on the device, and sets the limit on most devices for the number of programs that can be run without a Response drop. The System program is limited by the base Response rating of the device it is on: if the base Response rating of the device is lower than the System rating, then the System rating is set to equal the Response rating."

Your Response 4, System 6 commlink is running as if it's Response 4, System 4 and all your software without Optimization will run at a rating of 4 at best.

Oh, thank you for pointing that out. I misremembered.
It still makes the entire investment cheaper than just about everything else that gives even less bonus dice, with now 13,5k, so the point still stands (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bearclaw]

That is plain nonsense. All you need is to walk into an Electronics Emporium and shell out 600 Nuyen for a rating 6 EmoToy. And EmoSoft doesn't need military grade systems to run. In fact, it runs fine on unrated systems, because software ratings in SR4 are broken like that.

This is the important part. If you are buying a topflight comm-link to avoid having a little drone hidden on your body some where you are doing it wrong.
"Ha! My Furby™ says you're lying!" Indeed.

[All4BigGuns]

Oh, thank you for pointing that out. I misremembered.
It still makes the entire investment cheaper than just about everything else that gives even less bonus dice, with now 13,5k, so the point still stands (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's a lot to spend just for that. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it 'broken', and even if something can be abused, that doesn't mean that it will be abused.

[bannockburn]

I didn't say it is broken.
For me, this is merely an academic question, since we all (edit: where I usually play) agree that it is stupid to have a piece of equipment at such a low price available for just about everyone who even semi-regularly embarks in negotiations.

Which is why I pointed out the price disparity.
13.5k Nuyen for program, the commlink and its upgrades (which are usable to set up a very decent running 'link, as well) for +6 dice. Ceramic bone lacing at the minimum costs 9k more, gives 2 dice less and additionally costs essence, which is a finite ressource.
So yeah. You don't need to be good at math to see that there's something wrong with this picture.

For these reasons, a lot of people either ignore the pool inflation or rule that empathy software on both sides cancels each other out.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Empathy 6 with Optimization 3 will run at full power on a DV 3 commlink, and a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a commlink powerful enough to run it otherwise.

Cannot optimize Empathy Software... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)