Rigger 4, The Curse Lives!!! Options

[Pepsi Jedi]

Puck used to be a White, ffs. Oh, and when that went out of fashion, he ran with the dissonants, and the second Crash with all of its victims is partly his doing.
Comparing Clockwork to Puck is like comparing a school bully to a serial maniac.

Yeah, Puck used to be the "poor misunderstood Okatu that was bent, and tricked and misdirected by Deus, and fooled into being bad"

Since then he was given a chance at redemption.

Finally in Storm Front he's back on the side of the devils and it's hinted that he took down a passenger airliner in Denver and did other things that caused quite a few deaths.

My dislike of Clockwork is more personal. He's a bigot (ironicly) And has turned against his comrads and even hired out runners to try and capture and sell one into disection.

Puck, at first was misused by Deus and you could almost forgive his crimes by "under the influence of a god like Ai" but since then he's continued his behavior, up to and including Betraying the Denver data haven and causing lots of innocent collateral deaths, and promises more in the future, all "Muahaha' type.

I cant' stand traitors and betrayers. Thing is, I hate bigots and racists. Clockwork is both, Puck is just the first. Argueably Puck has killed many more innocent people, but for me, Clockworks betrayals and actions are more 'personal'.

[RHat]

I think the plane thing probably had to do with the nanotech issues, rather than being an intentional action.

[DeathStrobe]

So if I was a Dronomancer and wanted to rig the Warhammer would I need the skinlink and biowire echoes? Or would I have to take a hit to essence and get the custom cyberware system?

[RHat]

So if I was a Dronomancer and wanted to rig the Warhammer would I need the skinlink and biowire echoes? Or would I have to take a hit to essence and get the custom cyberware system?

Some sort of custom advanced echo, perhaps? Or skinlink, biowire, and acceleration twice?

[ShadowDragon8685]

Puck used to be a White, ffs. Oh, and when that went out of fashion, he ran with the dissonants, and the second Crash with all of its victims is partly his doing.
Comparing Clockwork to Puck is like comparing a school bully to a serial maniac.

Puck's not really on the hook for what he did while he was basically the brain-slave of Deus, as far as I'm concerned. That's like holding someone accountable for their actions after they've been forcibly drugged with K-10, mind-controlled, or forcibly personafixed as a serial murderer.

As far as the mew stuff... Well, I haven't read any of that, but I'd still rather go after Clockwork than Puck if given a chance. I mean, sure, they may both deserve to catch a bullet, but Clockwork deserves one so much more, for being the ultimate asshole, as Pepsi Jedi points out.

I'd leave Puck dead in a ditch for the ghouls to find. Clockwork, I'd feed him to the ghouls alive.

So if I was a Dronomancer and wanted to rig the Warhammer would I need the skinlink and biowire echoes? Or would I have to take a hit to essence and get the custom cyberware system?

The fun thin about being a TM is that Skinlink is all you need to interface with literally any technology as long as it's a computer of some sort. Brand-new, totally proprietary Ares BattleMech technology, sure. A 1970s-era SCUD missile launcher? Go for it. Hell, stress-test it with something invented in the era when Nixie Tubes were hot drek. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bull]

So if I was a Dronomancer and wanted to rig the Warhammer would I need the skinlink and biowire echoes? Or would I have to take a hit to essence and get the custom cyberware system?

YOu would have to get the Cyberware, unfortunately. The 'Mech isn't designed as a "Rigger Toy". It's a BettleMech Pilot toy. Its cyberware is envisioned as a very intensive very of Move-By-Wire that runs throughout your body connecting to almost every major nerve cluster, and then you plug into it through a series of ports along your back, allowing the 'Mech to move and operate as an extension of yourself. Which, well, regular rigging kinda does, but this is a giant humanoid robot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Part of the design is so that Ares can keep it "locked down'. This is not something that is supposed to be open development or even mass produced. The cyberware is custom designed and custom tailored to each individual in such a way that it cannot be replicated by outside sources (meaning Ares is the sole supplier of the cyebrware), and the Mechs are designed so that their interface cannot be overridden or bypassed. Which means that there is no way for an enemy rigger/decker/technomancer/AI to hijack the vehicle. (Honestly, if it wouldn't make for shitty game play, I'd design EVERY vehicle in the game this way, since that just makes sense from a security standpoint).

Plus, you know... April Fools product and all. Something like this will likely drastically change the flavor of the game if it were official (Which it is not). But, if your GM wants to use them, cool. And I suppose there's nothing stopping him from allowing a technomancer to mimic the tech needed to run the Warhammer. I might make you learn a new echo or skill though custom to the mech though, dunno. <shrug> (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Good luck and have fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Something like this will likely drastically change the flavor of the game if it were official (Which it is not).

Aww. So no Bull's Van in Missions?



-k

[Tashiro]

I do admit, it's quite awesome, but am I mistaken in thinking that adding a walker mod to pretty much any vehicle is in line with making it a mech, effectively? It's pretty much what I did with the example I gave earlier.

[DeathStrobe]

YOu would have to get the Cyberware, unfortunately. The 'Mech isn't designed as a "Rigger Toy". It's a BettleMech Pilot toy. Its cyberware is envisioned as a very intensive very of Move-By-Wire that runs throughout your body connecting to almost every major nerve cluster, and then you plug into it through a series of ports along your back, allowing the 'Mech to move and operate as an extension of yourself. Which, well, regular rigging kinda does, but this is a giant humanoid robot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That makes sense. I was trying to figure out why it needed a move-by-wire system. That's pretty cool imagery having a bunch of wires hanging off your body to interface with a giant mech.

Plus, you know... April Fools product and all. Something like this will likely drastically change the flavor of the game if it were official (Which it is not). But, if your GM wants to use them, cool. And I suppose there's nothing stopping him from allowing a technomancer to mimic the tech needed to run the Warhammer. I might make you learn a new echo or skill though custom to the mech though, dunno. <shrug> (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Good luck and have fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I don't know if it'd change the flavor all that much. One of the things I like about Shadowrun is that pretty much any archetype can be done with the rules. You want Spiderman? Well, get some gecko tape and some ware that shoots wires and now we got a cyberpunk Spiderman. Superman would maybe be a mystic adept with levitate, improve attribute strength, mystic armor, probably a bunch of other things I'm forgetting. Or Major Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell, just go full cyborg.

It all works. All but something like a Gundam pilot. Though I can't imagine a giant robot being subtle or easy to hide, so I can see a lot of bad things happening to any runners that use it and use it often. But I think its a pretty fun concept that seems like something that would appear some where in the SR universe, but not be very common at all, because giant robots are just insanely impractical, even on the battlefield. Really, the only place I could see giant humanoid robots really works is in construction like in the series Patlabor, but even then that's silly because it'd be easier and cheaper to build machines that specialize in one specific task then a humanoid machine that could do those tasks but probably not as well.

Anyway, to sum it up. I think its cool.

[KarmaInferno]

You want Spiderman? Well, get some gecko tape and some ware that shoots wires and now we got a cyberpunk Spiderman.

I do that in Missions! Extendo-cyberarms with gecko grip, and for longer distances grapple launcher in one arm.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)



-k

[Bull]

That makes sense. I was trying to figure out why it needed a move-by-wire system. That's pretty cool imagery having a bunch of wires hanging off your body to interface with a giant mech.


I don't know if it'd change the flavor all that much. One of the things I like about Shadowrun is that pretty much any archetype can be done with the rules. You want Spiderman? Well, get some gecko tape and some ware that shoots wires and now we got a cyberpunk Spiderman. Superman would maybe be a mystic adept with levitate, improve attribute strength, mystic armor, probably a bunch of other things I'm forgetting. Or Major Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell, just go full cyborg.

Depends on the style of the game. But then, people complained that statting up tanks ruined the flavor of the game too, so... *shrug*

It all works. All but something like a Gundam pilot. Though I can't imagine a giant robot being subtle or easy to hide, so I can see a lot of bad things happening to any runners that use it and use it often. But I think its a pretty fun concept that seems like something that would appear some where in the SR universe, but not be very common at all, because giant robots are just insanely impractical, even on the battlefield. Really, the only place I could see giant humanoid robots really works is in construction like in the series Patlabor, but even then that's silly because it'd be easier and cheaper to build machines that specialize in one specific task then a humanoid machine that could do those tasks but probably not as well.

Anyway, to some it up. I think its cool.

It's just one of those areas that doesn't work for Shadowrun simply because it's so impractical. The design needed for a "walker" style vehicle is going to be much more complex and more delicate than, say, a tank. It would be insanely expensive, and insanely easy to take out. For all intents and purposes, Battletech is an entire game world that's built on a massive suspension of disbelief. And god love 'em for that, because giant robots shooting missiles and lasers at each other is awesome.

Officially, the Mackie mentioned in RIgger 4 is somewhat canon. One of the CMP Missions (that we will hopefully get released here some day *sigh*) has the runner team hired to protect the Mackie during Desert Wars (and dealing with some other problems that crop up before the fight even starts). It's designed as an extremely expensive Promotional Stunt by Ares, so the runners are along to help keep the 'Mech operational long enough for them to get some good footage. The 'Mech in that adventure was purely cinematic, so there were no rules or stats for it really (Though whenever it does get published, I may try and get some of these rules included).

But, at the end of the day while I don't ever expect to officially see Battlmechs in Shadowrun, I definately designed the rules to be playable because hey... Giant Robots rock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Aww. So no Bull's Van in Missions?

Hehe. I didn't actually write that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Though I suppose if you really wanted an old beat up van... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And if you haven't yet, be sure to download and listen to the Critical Glitch podcast that was just released. I believe we talk about Bull and his bad luck with Vans (and arms) a little bit. ANd there's a NERPS episode coming down the line that also talks about some of that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I do consider the AMish War Buggy (My other contribution to this) to be Missions Legal though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'd leave Puck dead in a ditch for the ghouls to find. Clockwork, I'd feed him to the ghouls alive.

Very well put.... and I'd sell tickets and record it to sell the Sim too.

[Wakshaani]

One of these days, I'll have to get on Critical Glitch. I guess I should get more stuff written first, tho.

Hrm.

[CanRay]

Hehe. I didn't actually write that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Though I suppose if you really wanted an old beat up van... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Whoever did write that one sounds like a total jerk, however.

[X-Kalibur]

I do that in Missions! Extendo-cyberarms with gecko grip, and for longer distances grapple launcher in one arm.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)



-k

Are you sure that isn't inspector gadget or Rad Spencer from Bionic Commando? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

YOu would have to get the Cyberware, unfortunately. The 'Mech isn't designed as a "Rigger Toy". It's a BettleMech Pilot toy. Its cyberware is envisioned as a very intensive very of Move-By-Wire that runs throughout your body connecting to almost every major nerve cluster, and then you plug into it through a series of ports along your back, allowing the 'Mech to move and operate as an extension of yourself. Which, well, regular rigging kinda does, but this is a giant humanoid robot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And yet, we already have the appropriate skills for that thing: Pilot Anthroform, and Gunnery.

Steal the thing, get me the Rigger version of a Delta Clinic, and in about two months the Shadows will have produced an interface that is not only infinitely more efficient, but uses off-the-shelf parts and standard VR and ASIST/biofeedback interfaces to do everything Ares did in a system that doesn't need the user to have any ware at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Then they leak/sell non-exclusively, all their design documents, tech specs, etcetera, to all the other major Megas... Then the Fun and Games begin.

How long until Doctors Kearny and Fuchida are born, again? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sengir]

For all intents and purposes, Battletech is an entire game world that's built on a massive suspension of disbelief

Not that SR is different in that regard. But combining the disbelief suspension requirements of two universes would be too much. Also, nrealy every SciFi universe has mechs, so despite being a longtime CBT fan I'm grateful that some universes break with the trope.

[Aaron]

Not that SR is different in that regard. But combining the disbelief suspension requirements of two universes would be too much. Also, nrealy every SciFi universe has mechs, so despite being a longtime CBT fan I'm grateful that some universes break with the trope.

Shadowrun tends to be a bit more "hard" sci-fi than BattleTech. For a lot of people, that's part of the appeal; you can imagine the Awakening actually happening, what the world would be like, and what your place might be in it.

On the writing side of things, one of our rules is "because magic" isn't an acceptable justification for anything. It hasn't come up (at least not where I've seen it), but I imagine "because super-science" is equally unacceptable.

[bannockburn]

On the writing side of things, one of our rules is "because magic" isn't an acceptable justification for anything.

Sorry, that is simply not true.
Perianwyr's teleport levitate is one example, and then there's a LOT of things that are explained away by "Dragons did it", which is essentially the same as "A wizard did it", which in turn is "because magic".

[Sengir]

Shadowrun tends to be a bit more "hard" sci-fi than BattleTech.

Quantifying the "hardness" of a universe is obviously difficult, but IMO both are roughly equal. BT has mechs which work despite all engineering and logic problems yet crappy cybernetics with side effects that make them mostly unusable, SR is the opposite.

It hasn't come up (at least not where I've seen it), but I imagine "because super-science" is equally unacceptable.

Have a look at what customer nanite products are supposedly able to do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mach_Ten]

Sorry, that is simply not true.
Perianwyr's teleport levitate is one example, and then there's a LOT of things that are explained away by "Dragons did it", which is essentially the same as "A wizard did it", which in turn is "because magic".

But where does the line blur ? between "because Magic" & "Because it was Done by Magic" ? especially in a setting where magic exists and it (probably) doesn't IRL .. so we cannot draw the distinction.

I like a certain amount of 'fantasy science' in my gaming, not everything must be defined down to the movement of photons around a subject *Cough invisibility* that kinda shit really busts my 4th Wall

[bannockburn]

The line is drawn, where established rules of magic are broken, either deliberately or because of laziness.

Example 1, Harlequin: He is considered to have all spells he may ever need at his disposal. He still has to face drain when he casts one. He follows the rules.

Example 2, Perianwyr: It may have been deliberate, but a Force 700 levitate (that doesn't harm the persons who are levitated and with included invisibility) is ridiculous in the context of the rules as they are currently written and in the spirit of the rules that have been established about magic in-universe.
Example 3, Storm Front, Fall of a Dragon chapter: Spirits materialize and drop glass beads (which apparently come out of the astral with them?) with anchored spells. I can buy the anchored spells with a requirement to go off when the bead is broken, but the line between the astral and the physical realm is broken.

Explanations are not forthcoming for examples 2 and 3, so it's "because magic".

[Mach_Ten]

The line is drawn, where established rules of magic are broken, either deliberately or because of laziness.
/snip
Explanations are not forthcoming for examples 2 and 3, so it's "because magic".

perfect explanation as ever .. cheers, maybe I just have a mental switch that I flick in my head when I read fiction or when I go to see movies like "Mortal Kombat" I really really enjoyed it, don't aske me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) despite a hell of a lot of because magic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jaid]

great form spirits and free spirits can potentially create portals that allow mortals to travel to the metaplanes.

and immortal elves have already been shown to be able to netherwalk.

i don't consider netherwalking dragons using metaplanar shortcuts to be a problem, particularly, though i'm not familiar enough with the specific occasion of perianwyr doing those things to say if that would cover it.

[bannockburn]

great form spirits and free spirits can potentially create portals that allow mortals to travel to the metaplanes.

They can do that. In the rules the 'mortals', or rather 'people with physical bodies' can't take their bodies with them, though.

and immortal elves have already been shown to be able to netherwalk.

When and where? Apart from ED, which isn't really that suitable anymore.

i don't consider netherwalking dragons using metaplanar shortcuts to be a problem, particularly, though i'm not familiar enough with the specific occasion of perianwyr doing those things to say if that would cover it.

I don't consider it a problem either. After all, I've ruled that astral gateways can be used for bodypeople as well in my game world. It usually involves an uncertain time component and considerable risk for the people doing it, as they must traverse the metaplanes on their own (Note: This is entirely different from actual SR canon).
The event is described in Clutch of Dragons, where Perianwyr, for some unknown and forevermore unexplained reason (I really, really hope that this will be explained in the hinted at mini campaign book) put himself in between a furious Ghostwalker and an Aztlan delegation and then spirited away said delegation with a _serious_ amount of mojo and / or help of powerful spirits / artifacts / plot magic to a location about 1000km distant. In 1min. Without sonic boom. My suspension of disbelief became overstrained and broke down. Even if it were possible within standard rules, I see no reason why a comparably weak adult dragon would piss off a great in who's domain he lives and thrives AND spend so much magical clout for such a minor issue.


Which is why it becomes a problem in the context of the established 'things magic can and can't do in SR', when it is written in official products. Because then it becomes 'because magic'.

But this thread is about Rigger 4, which is a fun book to read.
Sorry about derailing it, I'm open for discussion on the matter via PM or in a different thread.