Infected sustenance Options

[Fatum]

So, as far as I understand, the Infected that consume parts of metahuman bodies do so not only for the mundane sustenance, but also for consuming a part of the Essence of the victim. This is why their hunger can't be satiated with a Nutrition spell, for example.
Now, that raises a few questions. Are the Infected satiating their hunger when they eat

1) a dead body?
2) vat-produced cloned meat?
3) each other?
4) metahuman-like metasapients like pixies, shapers or great dragons in metahuman form?
5) transgenic animals (like the pigs that Chicago ghouls got - were those a real deal or all the taste but none of the fill)?

[SpellBinder]

As far as I know:

1) Yes (ghouls, for example, are said to frequent graveyards and mortuaries)
2) Yes (cloned parts cost no Essence for implantation, and full clones have no special reductions or penalties regarding Essence)
3) Yes (helps explain the lack of a zombipocalypse of ghouls)
4) Probably, 50/50 on this one
5) I wouldn't think so (else a ghoul could get by on something like steak tartar)

Oh, note for number 4, don't forget that pixies fade away when they die. Only way a ghoul might be able to eat part of a pixie is while it's still alive, and even then it's possible the body part fades anyway.

And to add a question of my own, what of infected adepts with the Sustenance power? Would they be able to get by with one third of their dietary requirement?

[Umidori]

You're conflating two different mechanics, Fatum, but you're not the first to do so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

There are two major Infected "sustenance" hurdles: Essence Drain, and Dietary Requirement.

Dietary Requirement is just what it sounds like - something that must be a part of your diet, or you slowly waste away and die. The most common examples are Metahuman Flesh and Metahuman Blood, but there are others as well. There is absolutely no connection between Dietary Requirement and Essence. The Infected's body requires the substance for some biomagical reason, but Essence is in no way involved with the consumption of that substance.

For example, Ghouls require Metahuman Flesh to live, but they can readily feed on dead bodies that lack Essence. They cannot eat clonal human flesh, because ~Magic!~, and the clonal flesh, while genetically and physically metahuman, does not magically count as metahuman. (Interestingly, they also cannot eat bones.) Similarly, a Vampire requires Metahuman Blood, but can drain it from a corpse or procure it from a blood bank.

If you sill wonder about possible ties between Metahuman Flesh or Blood and Essence, look no further than the Alternate Infected, where certain Vampire variants have Dietary Requirements for things like Vinegar or Salt instead of Blood. Since you can't get Essence from either of those things, clearly Essence isn't connected to one's Dietary Requirement.

Now, the need to consume Essence applies only to those Infected which possess the Essence Loss and Essence Drain powers. These consist of the various "Vampire" strains which result from HMHVV I: Vampires and Nosferatu for Humans, Banshees for Elves, Goblins for Dwarves, Wendigo for Orks, and Dzoo-Noo-Qua for Trolls. For ease of reference, these Infected are typically referred to as the Special Infected. Their Essence slowly decays over time, so they need to consume the Essence of others to replenish their own.

There are a few restrictions to Essence Loss and Essence Drain. Firstly, one can only drain Essence from sapients, that is, either Metahumans or creatures with the Sapience power (in some books and printings erroneously referred to as the Sentience power). Secondly, one cannot drain Essence from a resisting victim - they must be either willing, or helpless to resist. Thirdly, one can only drain Essence in the presence of strong emotion focused personally on the one performing the draining. This final limitation is interesting and important to note, because it means a victim must be awake and able to understand their situation - a Vampire cannot drain Essence from an unconscious victim, for example.

In the case of Special Infected like the Vampire and the Wendigo, it is possible to both feed and drain essence at the same time, but it is not required, and the two actions are separate and do not influence each other directly. Both creatures can consume blood or flesh from corpses to meet their Dietary Requirements, but their Essence needs can only be met by draining living, conscious sapients.

As for "Infected Cannibalism", yes, they can consume each other, because they're all still Metahumans, so their Flesh and Blood still counts as such.

Non-Metahuman Sapients are useable for Essence Drain, but not for Dietary Requirement.

As for transgenic animals and Dietary Requirements? That depends entirely on magical theory, and whether the flesh counts as "metahuman" for magical purposes.

~Umi

[Patrick Goodman]

*grabs some Doritos and a Dr Pepper and sits back to watch*

Besides you, Umidori, who refers to Type I as "Special Infected"? I almost never see that term outside of this forum, and I'm curious why people think it's a common term of reference. Not being snarky; I'm genuinely, and in this case professionally, interested.

[Fatum]

There is absolutely no connection between Dietary Requirement and Essence. The Infected's body requires the substance for some biomagical reason, but Essence is in no way involved with the consumption of that substance.

This dietary requirement is due to a combination of natural and paranatural requirements: the physical digestive systems of the HMHVV infected are specialized or mutated by their transformation; vampires and banshees in particular lack most of the symbiotic bacteria that break down food and must subsist entirely on blood. All Infected show a distinct carnivorous preference in their diet. In addition to these physical requirements, the peculiar Awakened nature of the Infected requires the living energies of a metahuman aura in their food for optimum health, and sometimes large influxes of mana siphoned directly from the aura of a
living metahuman or other sapient creature; these are believed to be essential sustenance for the virus itself.

They cannot eat clonal human flesh, because ~Magic!~, and the clonal flesh, while genetically and physically metahuman, does not magically count as metahuman.

Cloned metahuman flesh and blood, including bioware, can satisfy some of these dietary requirements.

[Freya]

Umi's post and Runner's Companion don't actually contradict each other, the wording just needs to be clarified. (Sorry if this comes across as running roughshod over you, Umi.)

Dietary Requirement and Essence are two distinct needs, and both are required for an Infected's survival, but there's no direct connection between them; that is, you don't automatically fulfill one by fulfilling the other. Not all metahuman flesh contains Essence, so eating metahuman flesh for the Dietary Requirement doesn't necessarily fulfill the Essence requirement at the same time - hence why ghouls die of "Essence starvation" if they only eat vat-grown metahuman flesh. Likewise, if a vampire were to use their Essence Drain power on a spirit they would be able to offset their Essence loss, but there's no metahuman flesh involved, so they could still die from not meeting their Dietary Requirement. The reason there's so much emphasis on "eating people" is that it's the most convenient way for the Infected to feed; they get Essence because the target is a living sapient and metahuman flesh because the target is metahuman.

If it helps, think of the two needs as similar to the metahuman needs for air and water. They're "connected" in that not getting either one of them will kill you, but you aren't automatically rehydrated by breathing, nor are you automatically re-oxygenated by drinking water.

[Fatum]

Minding that Running Wild speaks of the need for essence as a part of dietary requirements, and in the next sentence states they can be partly satiated with cloned meat, I am doubting your line of reasoning in that part.

[_Pax._]

For example, Ghouls require Metahuman Flesh to live, but they can readily feed on dead bodies that lack Essence. They cannot eat clonal human flesh, because ~Magic!~, and the clonal flesh, while genetically and physically metahuman, does not magically count as metahuman. (Interestingly, they also cannot eat bones.) Similarly, a Vampire requires Metahuman Blood, but can drain it from a corpse or procure it from a blood bank.

But presumably, when getting blood from a bloodbank they have to make sure it's not clonal blood, for the same reasons as with Ghouls. IOW, they have to make sure it's actual, donated-by-a-metahuman blood.

This final limitation is interesting and important to note, because it means a victim must be awake and able to understand their situation - a Vampire cannot drain Essence from an unconscious victim, for example.

*cough* Simsense recording *cough* ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[SpellBinder]

Heh, I'll start taking the "Escaped Clone" quality, and play a clonal street meat character. "Can't eat me, I'm a clone!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

And how long is dead good for the essence? I haven't read that ghouls and the like must be eating a metahuman while said metahuman is still alive to get their dietary requirement. I mean, once you're dead your essence is gone and then therefore worthless to feed upon, right?

[Umidori]

@Patrick

To be honest, I actually picked up the Special Infected term from Dumpshock, so I'm afraid I don't have much insight on it. It cropped up often enough and with clear enough context in the threads I was interested in that I knew without any real hesitation what it was being used to mean and to refer to, so I assumed it was just common parlance. Until you made your comment, it honestly had never occured to me that it might not be so common after all.

I find it a useful term, because it clearly delineates those Infected which display "vampirism" from the rest. They are "special" in that they have an additional mechanic in play - the management of Essence via their Essence Drain power and Essence Loss weakness. These Infected also tend to have more and greater powers available, and also have higher BP costs. In most every regard, they are more complex or "advanced" than the other "regular" forms of Infected.

EDIT - Also, googling around a bit, I have a theory that perhaps the term stems from a similar usage and meaning originating from Left 4 Dead. There, you have your average zombie hordes, and then you have the "Special Infected" which are the iconic mini-boss types that are more powerful than the mindless drones. Hence the usage in SR - you've got your ordinary common infected like Ghouls, and then you have the more powerful and rarer "special infected" of the vampirism straing. (Loup-Garou and Fomóraig are so rare and regional as to be easily folded in with the similarly powered Ghoul population.)

@Fatum

Regarding your first quote, it doesn't actually mention Essence - it mentions auras and mana. What, if any, interaction there is between those and Essence is not explained anywhere I'm aware of. As for your second quote, it is referring to clonal flesh as regards Bioware, not clonal vat-grown meat. Basically it's saying that yes, you can eat Bioware out of a corpse. This is because bioware bits are still parts of people - they're infused with the metahuman aura or whatever that makes the physical flesh satisfy the magical needs of the ghoul's diet.

Vat-grown flesh, however, doesn't work. Just ask Dunkelzahn. In his will he bequethed a large amount of money to the first party to successfully develop a metahuman flesh substitute that ghouls could successfully live off of. The challenge has yet to be met and the reward remains unclaimed. Presumably, the reason vat-grown clonal flesh doesn't work is that its never been part of a living metahuman, and thus it lacks a metahuman aura. Such flesh knitted together from spare proteins is merely genetically human, not magically human.

@SpellBinder

Clonal flesh and being a clone are two different things.

Meat grown in a vat is just proteins. A cloned person is still a person, though. They still possess a metahuman aura and they have whatever mystical MacGuffin that is required to count for magical usage.

~Umi

[Freya]

To clarify what I said from before, I had a brain fart and forgot that ghouls can't subsist entirely on clonal meat (I think). Everything else I said about the separation of Dietary Requirement and Essence Loss stands.

I had a bunch of ideas on how to decide whether naturally grown vs. vat-produced biomatter was considered "metahuman" or not, but I'm going to leave them out, because I'm just getting myself tangled up with the definitions.

[Umidori]

Just for clarity's sake, Ghouls don't actually suffer Essence Loss. They just need meat that's been suffused with metahuman aura. Essentially, their Dietary Requirement is just very picky about the flesh being both physically and magically human.

To recap, a ghoul can eat living people, dead people, and bioware that is grown as a part of a person. They can't eat flesh that has never been part of an actual metahuman, and they can't eat bones. Or rather, they can eat it, but it doesn't satisfy their Dietary Requirements.

~Umi

[Freya]

You know, this reminds me of a discussion I saw somewhere about whether cybereyes are considered "technological rendering" for the purposes of targeting spells. The conclusion was that spells could be targeted via cybereyes because the character had spent Essence to have them installed. (I'm pretty sure it was in one of the books, but I can't find it right at the moment.) Could the same principle apply here, in the sense that if metahuman flesh was either naturally part of a person or had Essence spent to be installed in a person, it provides nourishment to the Infected?

[SpellBinder]

Heh, now I feel sorry for the ghoul that tries to eat the metahuman that's 99% bioware.

[Fatum]

But presumably, when getting blood from a bloodbank they have to make sure it's not clonal blood, for the same reasons as with Ghouls. IOW, they have to make sure it's actual, donated-by-a-metahuman blood.

Uh, any source on that?

Regarding your first quote, it doesn't actually mention Essence - it mentions auras and mana. What, if any, interaction there is between those and Essence is not explained anywhere I'm aware of.

The effect your Essence has on your aura is mentioned in the Assensing table - and what magical auras and mana can we be talking about for mundanes if not for it?

As for your second quote, it is referring to clonal flesh as regards Bioware, not clonal vat-grown meat.

It refers to clonal flesh, including (in addition) bioware. It is worded pretty unambiguously to me: "Cloned metahuman flesh and blood, including bioware".
Besides, the next sentence in the source is: "Force growing immature clones may provide an expensive but viable mid-term answer to the need to segregate HMHVV-positive individuals".
Is this new in Fourth Edition, then?

The challenge has yet to be met and the reward remains unclaimed.

Are you sure?

LPFarms’ stock comes from both re-domesticated feral pigs and a “seed stock” of transgenic pigs provided by Yakashima Corporation. The alteration to the transgenic pigs added some metahuman DNA, originally for xenotransplants, but now they hope that within a few generations, the pigs will be sufficient to satisfy the ghoul requirement for metahuman flesh.

[Freya]

(Edit: Never mind.)

From what I can see from the discussion so far, the evidence is that anything genetically modified doesn't count as "metahuman" for the purposes of ghoul food. I'm not sure where dead bodies stand on that, though, simply because of the sheer volume of references to ghouls being able to eat the dead (almost anything involving Tamanous, for example).

[_Pax._]

Uh, any source on that?

... "Logic", that's my source.

If cloned flesh != sustenance for the Infected, then cloned blood should be similarly limited. "Look, a DIET blood! All the flavor, NONE of the sustaining properties!"

Are you sure?

"within a few generations" and "hoped" woudl tend to mean that, yes, s/he can be 100% sure that the prize for a definite RIGHT NOW solution has not yet been claimed.

[Umidori]

The effect your Essence has on your aura is mentioned in the Assensing table - and what magical auras and mana can we be talking about for mundanes if not for it?

I don't see what that has to do with anything. Yes, your aura is affected by your Essence. So? A ghoul can still eat the meat from a super-cybered street sam (what little is left), not because the ghoul somehow drains Essence, but merely because the meat is magically metahuman - id est, it is connected to a metahuman aura. Whether the aura is the product of the Essence, or whether lowered Essence damages or negatively affects the aura is irrelevant.

Remember, Ghouls don't actually drain Essence. Mechanically speaking, they don't have the Essence Drain power. Their Essence does not increase with feeding, and their victims do not lose Essence from being fed upon. (Assuming they survive - if they die, their Essence presumably becomes 0 and no longer matters anyway.) There is no change in the Essence of any of the parties involved.

It refers to clonal flesh, including (in addition) bioware. It is worded pretty unambiguously to me: "Cloned metahuman flesh and blood, including bioware".

Perhaps the problem we're experiencing is language based.

The key differences are the method of cloning and the exposure to auras. The most commonly familiar form of cloning is organism cloning, or reproductive cloning. This is where you produce an entire new organism which has the same genes as the original. In the case of a metahuman, this new metahuman is sapient, has a metahuman aura, and all the rest. Consequently, you can feed such clones to ghouls if you like, and Tamanous does exactly that (among other really horrible things).

But you can also clone parts of a person. You can clone tissues, or even just cells. This is what I refer to when I talk about vat-grown meat. Such tissues are never a part of an entire person's being. Consequently, they are never exposed to, or infused with, a metahuman aura. Chemically and genetically, it's human flesh - but magically it's not.

Besides, the next sentence in the source is: "Force growing immature clones may provide an expensive but viable mid-term answer to the need to segregate HMHVV-positive individuals".

Creating immature clones and harvesting their flesh is organism cloning. There's already a black market for such flesh, but it's pretty morally reprehensible. The clones are still sapient metahumans, so it's essentially no different than eatting non-cloned infants. That said, it does have a metahuman aura, so it is useable as ghoul food - in fact, that's probably the primary market for it.

Are you sure?

To the best of my knowledge, yes. I've read the annotated version of Dunkelzahn's Will, and unless something has changed since that was last updated, the challenge should remain unmet. I can dig up a link to the will if you like. If you can find any source that suggests things have since changed, please let me know.

~Umi

[Umidori]

If cloned flesh != sustenance for the Infected, then cloned blood should be similarly limited. [i]

Technically, blood could even be considered a form of liquid flesh. It's a bunch of cells in a fluid suspension. So is meat, albeit with different ratios of solid particles to liquid, and different structures and forms.

~Umi

[SpellBinder]

So, what if you make a test tube baby without a brain to begin with but everything else? Or start with a complete being, but remove the brain for a jarhead early on and continue growing the rest for later? Or a cloned brain that was vat grown with nothing else?

[Umidori]

If it hasn't been marinated in delicious, delicious people aura, it ain't ghoul kosher.

~Umi

[Fatum]

I don't see what that has to do with anything. Yes, your aura is affected by your Essence. So? A ghoul can still eat the meat from a super-cybered street sam (what little is left), not because the ghoul somehow drains Essence, but merely because the meat is magically metahuman - id est, it is connected to a metahuman aura. Whether the aura is the product of the Essence, or whether lowered Essence damages or negatively affects the aura is irrelevant.

The difference between a cloned piece of tissue and the same tissue as a part of a whole organism, far as I understand, lies in that very presence of the Essence as a holistic category. If you think it is not required, do you think Nutrition spell will feed a ghoul?

But you can also clone parts of a person. You can clone tissues, or even just cells. This is what I refer to when I talk about vat-grown meat. Such tissues are never a part of an entire person's being. Consequently, they are never exposed to, or infused with, a metahuman aura. Chemically and genetically, it's human flesh - but magically it's not.

How is "cloned metahuman flesh and blood, including bioware" referring only to whole-organism cloning, and not tissue-cloning as well?

... "Logic", that's my source.
If cloned flesh != sustenance for the Infected, then cloned blood should be similarly limited. "Look, a DIET blood! All the flavor, NONE of the sustaining properties!"

We can presume that the rule is the same for flesh and blood, of course, minding that blood is basically a type of flesh for the sake of the Infected food (just like bones are for some other variants).
The problem is that we have a quote from the rules saying specifically that cloned flesh can partly satiate the dietary needs (or at least, that's how I'm reading it), so the evidence to the contrary can't be logic alone.

"within a few generations" and "hoped" woudl tend to mean that, yes, s/he can be 100% sure that the prize for a definite RIGHT NOW solution has not yet been claimed.

To me it means that even in the 60ies when the ghouls acquired the pigs there was a biotech company perilously close to solving this problem, and it wasn't even one of the leaders in the field.

If it hasn't been marinated in delicious, delicious people aura, it ain't ghoul kosher.

{citation needed}

[Umidori]

Fatum, let me sum up a few things you still seem to be missing out on.

Ghouls cannot fulfill their dietary requirement with vat-grown meat. It has been that way for a long time, and while it's always been said that it "was being worked on", I've never come across anything stating a solution was ever actually found. Unless you can cite a source suggesting that this fact has changed, I consider that aspect of the matter closed.

So we know that vat-grown meat doesn't work. Now, why doesn't it work? What difference is there between vat-grown meat and normal human meat? Physically, none. Magically, auras. It's that simple.

Now, as to the matter of "cloned metahuman flesh and blood, including bioware, can satisfy some of these dietary requirements". How to parse this? It's awfully wishy-washy, with phrases like "can" satisfy and "some" requirements.

I'll give it a liberal interpretation, with the benefit of closely observed context. The line comes from the section on Dietary Requirements, and that sidebox is speaking about all of the Dietary Requirements as a whole - including requirements for things other than blood or flesh. Thus, "can satisfy" I am willing to equate to "does satisfy", and "some requirements" I will take to mean "those certain requirements for blood or flesh".

Restated in full, I would phrase it thusly: "Cloned metahuman flesh and blood, including bioware, will satisfy Dietary Requirements for metahuman flesh or blood."

However! In keeping with the context of the entry, I must necessarily view the next line in the entry - regarding the forced growing of immature clones - as a direct indication of the kind of clonal flesh the entry is talking about. This refers specifically to harvesting flesh from full organisms.

Why do I keep making this distinction? Well, we've already established that vat-grown meat simply doesn't work for ghouls. The question, then, is why? If eatting a cloned metahuman fulfills the requirement, why doesn't eatting vat-grown tissues? They're physically identical. The only other possible difference that could explain this disparity is magical.

Please note the line you yourself quoted:

"In addition to these physical requirements, the peculiar Awakened nature of the Infected requires the living energies of a metahuman aura in their food for optimum health, and sometimes large influxes of mana siphoned directly from the aura of a living metahuman or other sapient creature; these are believed to be essential sustenance for the virus itself."

That clearly spells out that a metahuman aura is a vital component of meeting a Dietary Requirement for flesh or blood. It also happens to perfectly explain the difference between meat from organism cloning, and meat which is vat-grown, and why one fulfills the Dietary Requirement while the other does not.

~Umi

[Manunancy]

Ab out teh bioware angle, I'd thnk that the requirement would be fulfilled by bioware that's been isntalled into a person. Uninstalled bioware would lck the aura, but acquir it once imlated into a person. So before implantation, no use. After implantation (and probably some delay to soak in the aura) it counts as meathuman flesh.

[Umidori]

Indeed, that's how I see it as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi