OOC: Shadows of Conflict Options

[Buddha72]

I would check that with the GM just in case. I know in past games with sustained spells they were noticeable. If a mage was casting a manaball or other fire and forget spell the test to notice was there at the moment of casting but the modifier stayed in effect with spells that were sustained - the logic being the distortion of mana being gathered was still present and not discharged.

[Thanee]

NOTICING MAGIC
Just how obvious are magical skills? Not very, since most spells and spirits have little, if any,
visible effect in the physical world (unless the magician prefers to have flashy effects, or her
tradition calls for it). An observer has to notice the magician’s intense look of concentration,
whispered incantations, and small gestures.

You can notice, if a spell is being cast, but not the spell itself (without Astral Perception).

Bye
Thanee

[Redjack]

With an immediate contradiction in the very next paragraph.

Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster. 

Also note the word is gathered mana, not gathering mana, denoting the difference whether or not the effects linger post casting.

[Buddha72]

My point exactly - so I have had GMs rule one way and the other about noticing sustained spells. I mentioned checking with the GM more to clarify not to say one way or other who was right or wrong.

[Thanee]

With an immediate contradiction in the very next paragraph.

No contradiction here, it applies to using a magical skill, and that part is where you get the Perception check (notice the concentration, incantations, gestures as per the first paragraph).

The whole part you quoted applies to the actual process of using a magical skill (including the gathered mana, that is then released into the spell).


I really cannot see how this could be read in any other way, but of course, GMs sometimes see things differently. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But that would make spells like Physical Mask or Invisibility pretty silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Redjack]

Given:

Also note the word is gathered mana, not gathering mana, denoting the difference whether or not the effects linger post casting.

No contradiction here

We will need to politely agree to disagree on this.

But that would make spells like Physical Mask or Invisibility pretty silly.

Illusions, of course, completely mask any physical markers, obviously, otherwise they would be rather useless. We can agree on that.

[Thanee]

The part you quoted has two parts:

1) Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force.
2) More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster.

To me it is completely obvious, that the second part refers to the test in the first part (6 - Force); hence, more powerful magic is easier to spot. It then goes on to describe the effect.

The important part is, that the gathered mana that you can perceive is not the spell, but the spellcasting in process, during which it is perceivable.

The spell itself is not perceivable (unless you want it to, or its effect includes any physical emanations, like a Fireball). That is clearly stated.

... most spells and spirits have little, if any, visible effect in the physical world (unless the magician prefers to have flashy effects, or her tradition calls for it).

Only if you assume the gathered mana is (part of) the spell you get a contradiction. And if you get a contradiction, generally, the assumption is false.

Now, you highlighted the part about the mana being gathered as opposed to gathering.

What I say is, that the whole paragraph describes the process of using a magical skill, during which mana is gathered (it really doesn't matter, whether it is gathered or gathering, because everything only applies while using a magical skill). Only the spellcasting (or summoning, etc) allows the Perception test! There is no Perception test to notice a sustained spell (or a spirit).


In the end, of course, BishopMcQ has to say how he is going to handle it...

Bye
Thanee

[BishopMcQ]

I've always run it the way Buddha and Redjack are describing. Sustained effects have a 6-Force threshold, the same as noticing spirits.

[Thanee]

In that case, I have a few questions about specific spells...

Does it apply to all spells?

i.e.
Physical Mask (can you see that the masked person is surrounded by magic?)
Invisibility (can you see the spell emanations, even though you cannot see the masked person?)
Shapechange (can you see that the animal is surrounded by magic?)
Control Thoughts/Influence (can you see that the influenced person is surrounded by magic?)

Is a sustained spell only visible at the caster or also at the target (if it is different)?

What about masked spells (Extended Masking)?

And Astral Perception/Projection, does it have the same effect (because of the active Magic Attribute), or is it limited to spells and spirits? What about active foci?

Bye
Thanee

[BishopMcQ]

Illusions with the "Realistic" quality would not be readily obvious until interacting with them. Similarly a spirit with Realistic Form is not readily obvious. Other spells would have the 6-Force check, yes. (It should also be noted that Sustaining a spell is Step 7 of the Spellcasting act and maintaining concentration requires a Spellcasting test at GMs discretion; both of which would undermine the position that a sustained spell is not part of using a Magical skill.)

The sustained spell would be visible wherever the signature is. Cast a spell on a puppy, the signature is on the puppy.

Extended Masking conceals the astral components, but would not change the physical ones. It doesn't make your Armor spell stop glowing or your flamethrower any less visible, and wouldn't change the test to notice there is something magical happening. If they don't pierce the Masking, they won't be able to tell if it was a sustained health spell or a detection spell etc., nor will they be able to tell if it is your magic or something someone else sustained on you.

Astral Perception and Projection have a specific test to detect them. When your physical body comes in touch with an astral form it is a Perception + Intuition (4) test. Walk through a ward, have an astral spirit fly through you, or a dual natured person shake your hand, and you get the check. Touching an active focus would be the same.

[BishopMcQ]

On a side note: Remember, this is a world where there are magicians for hire. Wage mages offer everything from security (want your house warded, 500 nuyen a month) to fashion and salon services (we'll come to you, twice the cost but a fraction of the time). Just because you have a magical effect on you does not immediately mean you are a mage. It just means that you are slightly better off than the wageslave next to you.

[Thanee]

Illusions with the "Realistic" quality would not be readily obvious until interacting with them.

Could you detail a little further what "interacting" is? Seeing? Hearing? Touching?

Also, does it only apply to the illusion itself, or also other magic on the same target?

i.e. I am using Improved Invisibility and Increase Reflexes, does the spot where I am "glow"?

Same question with an astrally projecting magician, that is sustaining a spell. Can you see the spell's "glow"?

(It should also be noted that Sustaining a spell is Step 7 of the Spellcasting act and maintaining concentration requires a Spellcasting test at GMs discretion; both of which would undermine the position that a sustained spell is not part of using a Magical skill.)

Yeah, the typical problems with SR's ambiguous wordings.

However, it still directly contradicts this part: "most spells and spirits have little, if any, visible effect in the physical world". That part, really, is rather clear.

But... I have no problem playing it the other way, just want to know a few details so I can better adjudicate it.

Like... how common is it to see magical effects, then?

Since you can easily see pretty much every spirit flying around, and every spell being sustained, that should be reasonably common, or not?

Extended Masking conceals the astral components, but would not change the physical ones.

Now this makes me wonder... what physical component? The visible effect is from the astral component "bleeding through" into the physical world, or do spells have an actual physical effect?

I could certainly see physical spells having such a physical component, but mana spells, too?

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

And let me restate (since it probably doesn't look that way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ), I really have no problem playing it that way... just want to know the implications.

Bye
Thanee

[BishopMcQ]

Could you detail a little further what "interacting" is? Seeing? Hearing? Touching?

Interaction will depend on the Illusion. Some are multi-sense, others are single sense. There's the resistance test on p. 208. Beyond that, if someone tries to climb over the illusory dumpster that you made to block the alleyway you were fleeing down--when they touch it and their hand goes through it, they will realize it's an illusion.

Also, does it only apply to the illusion itself, or also other magic on the same target? i.e. I am using Improved Invisibility and Increase Reflexes, does the spot where I am "glow"?

What I've done in the past is to say that the Force of the illusion must be equal to or greater the force that they are trying to mask. So a F4 Imp Invisibility will disguise the F4 Inc Reflexes, until the invisibility fades or is resisted. Likewise Physical Mask was being used to disguise the effects of a possession spirit.

Like... how common is it to see magical effects, then? Since you can easily see pretty much every spirit flying around, and every spell being sustained, that should be reasonably common, or not?

It will definitely depend on the part of town that you are in. Some areas will have a higher level than others, but most people have seen something during their life.

Now this makes me wonder... what physical component? The visible effect is from the astral component "bleeding through" into the physical world, or do spells have an actual physical effect?

By Physical component, I meant that part that is physically visible through the Perception test. It could be a warping of the air as a manabolt courses through, a sudden cold breeze as a Norse mage unravels a spell, etc. If you read through the fights in the previous thread, I put out flavor text for various effects that were obvious for different folks.

[Thanee]

Interaction will depend on the Illusion. Some are multi-sense, others are single sense. There's the resistance test on p. 208. Beyond that, if someone tries to climb over the illusory dumpster that you made to block the alleyway you were fleeing down--when they touch it and their hand goes through it, they will realize it's an illusion.

If the illusory dumpster is a multi-sense illusion, it will affect touch. Would it still work that way?

Thinking about it... can you actually stand on a multi-sense illusory dumpster? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

What I've done in the past is to say that the Force of the illusion must be equal to or greater the force that they are trying to mask. So a F4 Imp Invisibility will disguise the F4 Inc Reflexes, until the invisibility fades or is resisted. Likewise Physical Mask was being used to disguise the effects of a possession spirit.

Fair enough to me. At least, that way, there is the option for subtlety. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

By Physical component, I meant that part that is physically visible through the Perception test. It could be a warping of the air as a manabolt courses through, a sudden cold breeze as a Norse mage unravels a spell, etc. If you read through the fights in the previous thread, I put out flavor text for various effects that were obvious for different folks.

Yes, but what I am talking about is stuff like the sustained Increase Charisma spell. How would that manifest in the physical world?

Bye
Thanee

[BishopMcQ]

You cannot stand on an illusion. It has no substance and won't bear weight. You can run your hand across it, and feel the texture, if you fail to resist. Pushing against it hard, to climb over it, would cause your hand to sink through and immediately disillusion the person.

The spells manifest as a "disturbance or glowing aura." The GM can flavor text that to be a tinkling of distant bells, a folding of space, the sudden smell of lavender. Mechanically, it's a Perception + Intuition Test with a threshold of (6-Force). As a GM, I generally use something thematically appropriate for the mage's tradition. I also allow players to describe the effects themselves, if they choose to, with the caveat that the mechanics do not change.

[Thanee]

Ok. Thank you! All good, then, from my perspective. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

Updated my last IC post a bit.

Bye
Thanee

[BishopMcQ]

So, to go back to the original question. Here are the noticeable characteristics which most people will see.

Azzo -- No obvious factors at first glance.
Charles -- No obvious factors at first glance.
Kimi -- Distinctive eyes and gait
Mel -- Dermal Plating
Miko -- Glamour and a sustained spell effect.

[BishopMcQ]

Redjack--Remember, Falcone is in a wheelchair.

[Redjack]

Redjack--Remember, Falcone is in a wheelchair.

Doh! Edited.

[Buddha72]

Double checking a point here - do we ned to roll anything to see if Falcone was speaking colorfully when he talked about recruiting the employees for the client or was that a cover for forcible extracted?

[BishopMcQ]

Buddha--It is likely a metaphor for forced extraction, in case he didn't want to talk about kidnapping people in a public restaurant... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Buddha72]

Safehouses (in response to IC request)
7d6.hits(5)=4

[BishopMcQ]

Buddha -- Kimi knows of two safehouses in the Bellevue area. The Bellevue Sleep & Eat is a no questions asked coffin motel that has larger shipping containers for rent as well. Security is what you bring with you. The Phantom Lake Ring runs it, and the residents are among the truly down-and-out and desperate.

New Eden is an upscale B&B that has a discrete basement with access for those who can afford it. Photos show it to be a one story building in a rough U shape. The driveway runs along the inside of the U and you can see the vast double doors that lead in. The property is surrounded by a 2 meter high wall covered with vines and plants. There are 2 gates leading into and out of the U, one at each end. The gates are ornate nightmares of wrought iron.

She knows of several others on the edges of Redmond and Renton, which are further from the site, as well as, several on Council Island.