Gel Packs Options

[Luke Hardison]

I was about to add Gel Packs to an Armored Vest with Plates, looking for an assault vest I could wear outside normal clothes when things get extra hot. Then I read the rules for Gel Packs over more carefully, and I can't figure out any reason why anyone would use them. Yeah, you can load up a Lined Coat, Vest w/ Plates, or Armor Jacket and be fearless in the face of holdouts. Is there any point to them, as is?

Does anyone have a house rule that removes the useless factor from these?

[BitBasher]

On a set of secrity armor with a helmet they become fearsome, it's military grade equipment. It's pretty pointless to use on normal concealable armor.

[KillaJ]

If my understanding of the armor spell is correct(and there is ample reason to believe that it is not) it adds to the rating of the physical armor being worn.

This implies, to me at least, that if you had a force 5 armor spell active combined with the aforementioned gel packed equipped vest it would effectively grant you 9/8 hardened armor. I have never seen anyone do it, but that is how I think it works.

[A Clockwork Lime]

It is pretty useless. About the only thing it's good for is defending against hold-outs (like you said) and average to weak melee opponents (and if they're good enough to smack ya so it hurts, chances are they're going to have more than a Strength of 3 or 4). So what if you're toting around obviously milspec armor (Legality 4-L)? The risks are well worth those hefty benefits. Yessir.

It's even useless on Security Armor, at least fisically. Light Hardened Armor with Helmet costs 27,500¥ (82,500¥ with Street Index) and provides 9/9 Hardened Armor. Heavy Security Armor with Helmet and Gel Packs costs 61,250¥ (306,250¥ with SI) yet only provides 8/7 Hardened Armor. MilSpec Armor is even more available at 18/1 mo. while the SecArmor+Gel Packs has an availability of 32/56 days. The Legality is negilible; 2P-L+4-L vs. 2-L. The MilSpec Armor weighs 12+Body kilos [18 kilos for a Body 6 character] while the SecArmor+Gel weighs (13+Body)x1.25kilos [24kg for a Body 6 character].

Note also that the Heavy Security Armor with Gel Packs is still pointless against anyone with a Heavy Pistol.

Thus for the cost of nearly four suits of superior armor in every way but one (Legality), you get a single suit of wholly craptacular armor. Note that the Legality issue is much of a deal, either. Especially not for a price hike of 223,750¥.

As far as I can tell, it's amongst the most useless drek in the game. Well, unless you're looking to be easier to knock on your ass, as that's about the only characteristic it provides that might come up on a regular basis.

EDIT: Had to increase the Street Index costs for the Security Armor; left out the +2 from the Gel Packs.

This post has been edited by A Clockwork Lime: Apr 25 2004, 11:08 PM

[Diesel]

Force six armor + Armor jacket with gelpacks is still the shiznite, depending on your rulings. Mmm, 11/9 hardened. That's good against everything up to sniper rifles, right?

[A Clockwork Lime]

The Armor spell only provides a boost to standard armor bonuses. It is incompatible with hardened armor. That's how it always works with standard and hardened armor in conjunction with one another.

At best, you can be lenient and treat it like a vehicle. Anything that gets past the hardened armor has its Power reduced by that armor for purposes of getting past the Armor spell. Example: Someone with Hardened Armor 4 and the Armor 6 spell gets shot by a FA burst from an assault rifle. The Damage Code is 13D, reduced by 4 by the hardened armor (which it penetrated since its base Power was higher than 4), then again by 6 thanks to the spell. The character now has to resist a 3D attack. In no way does standard armor stack with hardened armor.

Any GM who lets them stack belongs in MunchkinLand.

[Diesel]

But is there anything canon that says they can't? No one has touched the idea in my group for fear of being meteored, but is it actually against the rules?

[A Clockwork Lime]

There's nothing in the rules to support it. Everytime the subject does come up, it's forbidden. Two quick examples:

CC p. 51, Hardened MilSpec Armor: "No other armor can be worn with hardened armor."
CC p. 52, Gel Packs: "A gel-packed armor item cannot be layered with other armor."

While the rules never come out and say it directly, it's obvious that it's the intent. Other armors can't be worn with those two not because you can't slap something on (Form-Fitting Body Armor should be just as form-fitting no matter what you're wearing, for example), but because the armor types are incompatible.

[BitBasher]

[Kagetenshi]

[A Clockwork Lime]

I create them all the time. But they're definitely the exception, not the rule. Sorta like hold-out pistols.

But since most Melee Skills are linked to Strength, the vast majority of "melee masters" tend to be not that far off in the Strength department, either. The only people a decent runner needs to worry about are those with insane skill/improved skill levels to begin with. If you can't hold your own against someone with Brawling 3 or 4, you deserve to be thrashed soundly.

And yes, BitBasher, I'm very well aware of that. That's probably why I said they never come out and say it directly, but did state that all indicitations relating to the concept state "no." But munch out all you like. It's your game.

[Glyph]

I've never liked how gel packs were handled, myself, even with SR's abstract damage system. Why should putting gel packs under an armored vest suddenly protect make you immune to that holdout pistol? It's still not covering your face, arms, or legs. To me, hardened armor only makes sense when it's actually something that covers your entire body.

[Zazen]

[mfb]

lime, there are no concepts in the game related to magically improving the ratings of your armor. given the use of the words "worn" and "layered" in the above quotes, i'd have to say it's fairly obvious that they're referring to actual worn armor, not things like, say, bone lacing, the mystic armor adept power, orthoskin, or armor spells. none of those are worn, none of those layer--they stack directly at their full ratings.

and, zazen, i don't see anywhere in the text where it says "adds its rating to each piece of armor worn."

[A Clockwork Lime]

Right, so the retardation continues. Now, you Gel Pack your underwear and you can become immune to gunfire just by getting a pair of cyberlegs with full armor (Ballistic 10/Impact 10 and Ablative 10 in both legs, for Ballistic +8/Impact +8), Orthoskin (Ballistic +1/Impact +1), and whatever else you wanna cram in to get it even higher. Hooray. And all because you decided to wear your gel-packed diapers (Hardened Ballistic 1/Impact 1) today.

It's obvious that that isn't the intent, and it's obvious that the rules don't even lean that way based upon everything else in the game relating to the use of standard armor with hardened armor.

But no, the rules never come out and say it.

[mfb]

if it were that obvious, there wouldn't be an argument about it. gravity is obvious. layering armor is in no way obvious.

the problem you mention lies in the armor rules in general, not the gel pack rules specifically.

[Diesel]

You can't wear gelpacked armor with any others, can you?

[Arethusa]

Hard to say. The rules only specifically state that they can't be layered with other armor.

[Diesel]

Oops. Nevermind.

This post has been edited by Diesel: Apr 27 2004, 12:38 AM

[A Clockwork Lime]

Has anyone considered that there's a difference between the rules for layering armor and the term "layering armor?" According to SR3 p. 285, "layering armor" simply refers to having more than one type of armor at any given point. No distinction is made between armored clothing, hardened armor, or magical armor.

It then goes on to describe the most common effects of layering armor. Other rules can override these rules (like, say, cyberware, an Armor spell or Form-Fitting Body Armor), but it's still "layered" in that you're getting armor from more than one source.

So I'll withdraw my earlier comment. The rules do, indeed, cover this situation just fine. Gel Packed armor cannot be used with any other type of armor. CC p. 52: "A gel-packed armor item cannot be layered with other armor." Note the total lack of distinguishing what type of armor it can't be layered with. It simply can't be layered with any other armor. That includes spells.

[Diesel]

Once more, depending on if you interpret the armor spell as layering armor. If so, then yes, you are very much correct.

If you use another interpretation, than no, 11/9 hardened is very possible.

[Arethusa]

[A Clockwork Lime]

Gel-packed armor does not layer with any other armor. The Armor spell layers magical armor overtop whatever you're wearing, boosting it directly. It states that it's compatible with all worn armor, but as Gel Packs are found in CC, its rules override those in SR3. It's also incompatible with cyberware, form-fitting body armor, and anything else that provides armor.

Again, the term "layered with other armor" is completely different from the effects of layered armor. Just because the Armor spell doesn't use the rules for layered armor, that doesn't mean it's not still a layering of armor.

The spell is quite specific in that it's layering a magical field over the target.

[BitBasher]

All sounds good, except that the spell does not and a layer of armor. It simply inreases your existing armor magically.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Only mechanically (at which point it's little different from a Dermal Sheath or Bone Lacing). Descriptively it's another layer of armor. First setnence: "This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy around the target that protects against impact and ballistic damage."

That's another layer of armor, and that's not compatible with gel packs.