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Luke Hardison
I was about to add Gel Packs to an Armored Vest with Plates, looking for an assault vest I could wear outside normal clothes when things get extra hot. Then I read the rules for Gel Packs over more carefully, and I can't figure out any reason why anyone would use them. Yeah, you can load up a Lined Coat, Vest w/ Plates, or Armor Jacket and be fearless in the face of holdouts. Is there any point to them, as is?

Does anyone have a house rule that removes the useless factor from these?
BitBasher
On a set of secrity armor with a helmet they become fearsome, it's military grade equipment. It's pretty pointless to use on normal concealable armor.
KillaJ
If my understanding of the armor spell is correct(and there is ample reason to believe that it is not) it adds to the rating of the physical armor being worn.

This implies, to me at least, that if you had a force 5 armor spell active combined with the aforementioned gel packed equipped vest it would effectively grant you 9/8 hardened armor. I have never seen anyone do it, but that is how I think it works.
A Clockwork Lime
It is pretty useless. About the only thing it's good for is defending against hold-outs (like you said) and average to weak melee opponents (and if they're good enough to smack ya so it hurts, chances are they're going to have more than a Strength of 3 or 4). So what if you're toting around obviously milspec armor (Legality 4-L)? The risks are well worth those hefty benefits. Yessir.

It's even useless on Security Armor, at least fisically. Light Hardened Armor with Helmet costs 27,500¥ (82,500¥ with Street Index) and provides 9/9 Hardened Armor. Heavy Security Armor with Helmet and Gel Packs costs 61,250¥ (306,250¥ with SI) yet only provides 8/7 Hardened Armor. MilSpec Armor is even more available at 18/1 mo. while the SecArmor+Gel Packs has an availability of 32/56 days. The Legality is negilible; 2P-L+4-L vs. 2-L. The MilSpec Armor weighs 12+Body kilos [18 kilos for a Body 6 character] while the SecArmor+Gel weighs (13+Body)x1.25kilos [24kg for a Body 6 character].

Note also that the Heavy Security Armor with Gel Packs is still pointless against anyone with a Heavy Pistol.

Thus for the cost of nearly four suits of superior armor in every way but one (Legality), you get a single suit of wholly craptacular armor. Note that the Legality issue is much of a deal, either. Especially not for a price hike of 223,750¥.

As far as I can tell, it's amongst the most useless drek in the game. Well, unless you're looking to be easier to knock on your ass, as that's about the only characteristic it provides that might come up on a regular basis.

EDIT: Had to increase the Street Index costs for the Security Armor; left out the +2 from the Gel Packs.
Diesel
Force six armor + Armor jacket with gelpacks is still the shiznite, depending on your rulings. Mmm, 11/9 hardened. That's good against everything up to sniper rifles, right?
A Clockwork Lime
The Armor spell only provides a boost to standard armor bonuses. It is incompatible with hardened armor. That's how it always works with standard and hardened armor in conjunction with one another.

At best, you can be lenient and treat it like a vehicle. Anything that gets past the hardened armor has its Power reduced by that armor for purposes of getting past the Armor spell. Example: Someone with Hardened Armor 4 and the Armor 6 spell gets shot by a FA burst from an assault rifle. The Damage Code is 13D, reduced by 4 by the hardened armor (which it penetrated since its base Power was higher than 4), then again by 6 thanks to the spell. The character now has to resist a 3D attack. In no way does standard armor stack with hardened armor.

Any GM who lets them stack belongs in MunchkinLand.
Diesel
But is there anything canon that says they can't? No one has touched the idea in my group for fear of being meteored, but is it actually against the rules?
A Clockwork Lime
There's nothing in the rules to support it. Everytime the subject does come up, it's forbidden. Two quick examples:

CC p. 51, Hardened MilSpec Armor: "No other armor can be worn with hardened armor."
CC p. 52, Gel Packs: "A gel-packed armor item cannot be layered with other armor."

While the rules never come out and say it directly, it's obvious that it's the intent. Other armors can't be worn with those two not because you can't slap something on (Form-Fitting Body Armor should be just as form-fitting no matter what you're wearing, for example), but because the armor types are incompatible.
BitBasher
QUOTE
There's nothing in the rules to support it. Everytime the subject does come up, it's forbidden. Two quick examples:

CC p. 51, Hardened MilSpec Armor: "No other armor can be worn with hardened armor."
CC p. 52, Gel Packs: "A gel-packed armor item cannot be layered with other armor."

The armor spell is not other armor worn with hardened armor, nor is it somethign that is layered with other armor, in the spell description it says it adds directly to the armor rating, and it does not specify whether or not it is soft or hardened, it just "adds to the armor rating". Hardened armor is still an arnor rating, and is threreofre added to. By the way it is written in the book it adds to hardened armor, and there is nothing that really directly states or implies otherwise.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)
It is pretty useless. About the only thing it's good for is defending against hold-outs (like you said) and average to weak melee opponents (and if they're good enough to smack ya so it hurts, chances are they're going to have more than a Strength of 3 or 4).

You never have a melee master or melee physad who has normal human strength, or near it?

~J
A Clockwork Lime
I create them all the time. But they're definitely the exception, not the rule. Sorta like hold-out pistols.

But since most Melee Skills are linked to Strength, the vast majority of "melee masters" tend to be not that far off in the Strength department, either. The only people a decent runner needs to worry about are those with insane skill/improved skill levels to begin with. If you can't hold your own against someone with Brawling 3 or 4, you deserve to be thrashed soundly.

And yes, BitBasher, I'm very well aware of that. That's probably why I said they never come out and say it directly, but did state that all indicitations relating to the concept state "no." But munch out all you like. It's your game.
Glyph
I've never liked how gel packs were handled, myself, even with SR's abstract damage system. Why should putting gel packs under an armored vest suddenly protect make you immune to that holdout pistol? It's still not covering your face, arms, or legs. To me, hardened armor only makes sense when it's actually something that covers your entire body.
Zazen
QUOTE (BitBasher)
By the way it is written in the book it adds to hardened armor, and there is nothing that really directly states or implies otherwise.

As I've said before, if you read it like that you can also say that it provides about 8 billion points of armor by adding its rating to every piece. With, as you say, nothing that directly states or implies otherwise. nyahnyah.gif
mfb
lime, there are no concepts in the game related to magically improving the ratings of your armor. given the use of the words "worn" and "layered" in the above quotes, i'd have to say it's fairly obvious that they're referring to actual worn armor, not things like, say, bone lacing, the mystic armor adept power, orthoskin, or armor spells. none of those are worn, none of those layer--they stack directly at their full ratings.

and, zazen, i don't see anywhere in the text where it says "adds its rating to each piece of armor worn."
A Clockwork Lime
Right, so the retardation continues. Now, you Gel Pack your underwear and you can become immune to gunfire just by getting a pair of cyberlegs with full armor (Ballistic 10/Impact 10 and Ablative 10 in both legs, for Ballistic +8/Impact +8), Orthoskin (Ballistic +1/Impact +1), and whatever else you wanna cram in to get it even higher. Hooray. And all because you decided to wear your gel-packed diapers (Hardened Ballistic 1/Impact 1) today.

It's obvious that that isn't the intent, and it's obvious that the rules don't even lean that way based upon everything else in the game relating to the use of standard armor with hardened armor.

But no, the rules never come out and say it.
mfb
if it were that obvious, there wouldn't be an argument about it. gravity is obvious. layering armor is in no way obvious.

the problem you mention lies in the armor rules in general, not the gel pack rules specifically.
Diesel
You can't wear gelpacked armor with any others, can you?
Arethusa
Hard to say. The rules only specifically state that they can't be layered with other armor.
Diesel
Oops. Nevermind.
A Clockwork Lime
Has anyone considered that there's a difference between the rules for layering armor and the term "layering armor?" According to SR3 p. 285, "layering armor" simply refers to having more than one type of armor at any given point. No distinction is made between armored clothing, hardened armor, or magical armor.

It then goes on to describe the most common effects of layering armor. Other rules can override these rules (like, say, cyberware, an Armor spell or Form-Fitting Body Armor), but it's still "layered" in that you're getting armor from more than one source.

So I'll withdraw my earlier comment. The rules do, indeed, cover this situation just fine. Gel Packed armor cannot be used with any other type of armor. CC p. 52: "A gel-packed armor item cannot be layered with other armor." Note the total lack of distinguishing what type of armor it can't be layered with. It simply can't be layered with any other armor. That includes spells.
Diesel
Once more, depending on if you interpret the armor spell as layering armor. If so, then yes, you are very much correct.

If you use another interpretation, than no, 11/9 hardened is very possible.
Arethusa
QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)
Has anyone considered that there's a difference between the rules for layering armor and the term "layering armor?" According to SR3 p. 285, "layering armor" simply refers to having more than one type of armor at any given point. No distinction is made between armored clothing, hardened armor, or magical armor.

It then goes on to describe the most common effects of layering armor. Other rules can override these rules (like, say, cyberware, an Armor spell or Form-Fitting Body Armor), but it's still "layered" in that you're getting armor from more than one source.

So I'll withdraw my earlier comment. The rules do, indeed, cover this situation just fine. Gel Packed armor cannot be used with any other type of armor. CC p. 52: "A gel-packed armor item cannot be layered with other armor." Note the total lack of distinguishing what type of armor it can't be layered with. It simply can't be layered with any other armor. That includes spells.

That's one interpretation. Personally, I'm inclined to agree not because I think it's the only right way to look at it but because it's the only sanely balanced way to look at it.
A Clockwork Lime
Gel-packed armor does not layer with any other armor. The Armor spell layers magical armor overtop whatever you're wearing, boosting it directly. It states that it's compatible with all worn armor, but as Gel Packs are found in CC, its rules override those in SR3. It's also incompatible with cyberware, form-fitting body armor, and anything else that provides armor.

Again, the term "layered with other armor" is completely different from the effects of layered armor. Just because the Armor spell doesn't use the rules for layered armor, that doesn't mean it's not still a layering of armor.

The spell is quite specific in that it's layering a magical field over the target.
BitBasher
All sounds good, except that the spell does not and a layer of armor. It simply inreases your existing armor magically.
A Clockwork Lime
Only mechanically (at which point it's little different from a Dermal Sheath or Bone Lacing). Descriptively it's another layer of armor. First setnence: "This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy around the target that protects against impact and ballistic damage."

That's another layer of armor, and that's not compatible with gel packs.
Zazen
Well, reading it like that makes gel packs unusable on all trolls since they have natural dermal armor. That's quite a reach to get canon to say what you want, rather than just saying "yeah it says that, but that's stupid."



Anyway, I haven't done this in a while, so here goes. Another way to read the Armor spell:

"This spell creates a magical field of energy around the target that protects against impact and ballistic damage. One success is enough to create the magical field around the character of an Armor Rating equal to the Force of the spell. The Armor spell is compatible with all armor types and adds it rating to the rating of the physical armor being worn." (emphasis mine)

Thus someone wearing an armor jacket and full form fit can have:
Magical field: 6
Armor jacket: 11/9
Full FFBA: 10/7

etc. etc. Dumb.
A Clockwork Lime
Like I said, mechanically, it doesn't layer. Just like cybernetic armor doesn't layer. But it's still another layer of armor, and the CC rules (where Gel Packs is located) override those in SR3 (where Armor is located); gel-packed armors do not work with any other layers of armor.

Whether or not you agree, it really is a moot point. Other than a handful of people, it's pretty obvious it's stupid if you don't say 'no' to it. So it just comes down to semantics. I'm just trying to have a postive outlook on the rules for a change, that's all.
noname_hero
QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)
Like I said, mechanically, it doesn't layer. Just like cybernetic armor doesn't layer. But it's still another layer of armor, and the CC rules (where Gel Packs is located) override those in SR3 (where Armor is located); gel-packed armors do not work with any other layers of armor.

The Armor spell is NOT another armor - I don't see such words anywhere in the spell's description. Yeah, it is called Armor, but it is NOT armor. Would you argue if it was named "Protection"? You can bet that many mages do not call it Armor, the spell's name in rules is not standard in the game's world. Read the description again, if you're so punctual about wording. It is "a magical field of energy around the target that protects against impact and ballistic damage. One success is enough to create the magical field around the character of an Armor Rating equal to the Force of the spell. The Armor spell is compatible with all armor types and adds it rating to the rating of the physical armor being worn."

See? "The Armor spell is compatible with", NOT "The armor is compatible with"...
See? "magical field around the character of an Armor Rating", NOT "another armor around the character of an Armor Rating"...
Therefore, Armor spell CAN be combined with gel packs.

However, Armor spell adds its *non-hardened* rating to (hard or soft) physical armor, and while common sense might suggests that the end result should be a hardened armor of higher rating, it is a *soft* armor that acts as hardened only at the rating of the physical armor. E.g. a 8/7 hardened armor plus force 5 Armor spell stops all force 8 ballistic and force 7 impact threats, and acts as 13/12 soft armor against more powerful threats.
Blame the rules...
mfb
indeed. layering is a fairly specific term, with specific rules. you can layer armor normally, by halving the lower-rated armor and adding it to the higher. you can layer as a helmet, adding its full rating to existing armor. you can not layer, as with certain outfit sets that add their ratings together, or as with armor provided by things like bone lacing, mystic armor, the armor spell, etc.

Lantzer
I suppose my way of dealing with this issue would be to say:

"The Gel Packs work with your Armor spell as long as you can figure out how to attach them to the spell." They are, after all, an armor modification, not a source of armor themselves.

By this logic, you could harden an armor spell with a:

Gel Pack Suit Armor Sustaining Focus. Basically, you end up with a suit of gel packs, that is enchanted with the armor spell. Instant magical hardened armor.

Could be a mite expensive. And kind of bulky. And a pain to enchant. But it would work, in my games. Of course, like the rules say, you couldn't layer it with anything.
A Clockwork Lime
Layered armor, again as described in SR3, refers to the combination of more than one type of armor. It then goes on to describe the most common effect of layering armor. But certain types of armor -- once again, like the Armor spell, or cyberware, or form-fitting body armor -- has their own rules when it comes to how they layer with other armors.

The Armor spell works almost exactly like a Dermal Sheath. It adds its rating to whatever the character is wearing. In no way does that mean it's not another layer of armor. It jsut has its own rules for how you apply it.

Gel-packed armor, on the other hand, is quite specific. It cannot be layered with any other armor.

Yes, the Armor spell says its compatible with everything. But the Armor spell is in the SR3 sourcebook. Gel-packed armor is in the CC sourcebook, whose rules -- where it cannot be layered with anything else -- auotmatically override anything printed earlier. You know, like the Armor spell's rule that it works with anything.

You might also note from one of my first posts in the thread that my prefered way to handle it is pretty much exactly what noname said. The armor does effectively stack, but the benefits of the hardened armor is limited to the single piece of armor so augmented. Anything that gets past the hardened armor then has to deal with whatever other armor you're wearing whether or not that armor is in the form of a spell, clothing, or implant.
Lantzer
Makes sense, Lime.

Advantages:

1) It is consistent for bone lacing, dermal sheathing, orthoskin, and armor spells.
2) GMs swear less due to their magical PCs
3) PCs swear less due to their GM's magical NPCs

Disadvantages:

1) I might get *hurt*! eek.gif dead.gif
2) It doesn't take into account what is layered over/under what. Of course, neither does _anything else_ in this game.

So what the heck.
BitBasher
So then lime you say that someone with titanium bone lacing cannot put on a gel packed vest?
A Clockwork Lime
No, I'm saying that they don't get any hardened armor from it. Just because you put some gel in your shorts, that doesn't spontaneously transform your bone lacing into milspec armor.
Lantzer
I suppose you could surgically implant gel packs as part of the bone lacing, too.

I've got no idea how much essense that would cost. And rupture/replacement would be a pain.

And I'm not sure what good rating 1 hardened ballistc would be....
TinkerGnome
If it's a simple thing to get 9 points of hardened ballistic armor, then mages are just a little too powerful. You could walk through machine gun fire, assault rifle fire, heavy pistol fire... all without blinking. And wearing nothing but an armored vest with gel packs and sustaining one spell.

The flip side is, if you allow this, then you really do have to abide by the FAQ ruling about using a called shot to avoid all armor. You'll actually have more dead mages that way than without the hardened armor, I'd think.
Lilt
I'd say the armor spell does work in conjunction with gel packs. That's Largely because I consider the armor spell to be a single-target version of the physical barrier spell.

Why does that make a difference? Attacks passing through a barrier have their rating reduced by the barrier's force. As the armor created by the armor spell is effectively a field around the character, the bullet hits it first and has its power reduced thus the attack against the gel-packed armor (or whatever armor) is weaker.
TinkerGnome
Umm... because physical barrier gets reduced with each attack which hits it with enough force and collapses if breeched? They're rather different.

A full auto burst from an assault rifle loading Ex-Ex ammo will knock down just about any barrier spell. The mage with 9 points of hardened armor just laughs at it.
Zazen
QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)
No, I'm saying that they don't get any hardened armor from it. Just because you put some gel in your shorts, that doesn't spontaneously transform your bone lacing into milspec armor.

But that would be layering a gel-packed armor with other armor, no different than layering a gel-packed jacket over FFBA and keeping its soft-armor rating.

If you read layering armor to include armor that isn't subject to the layering rules, then people with titanium lacing really can't put on that jacket (or won't derive benefit from it, or whatever effect "cannot layer" has according to the GM).
A Clockwork Lime
What part of "these aren't my fucking rules" do you not just get, man? It's no fault of mine that the authors are occassionally lazy and word things retardedly without really thinking about what they're saying.

What they obviously meant to say is that gel-packed armor isn't compatible with other layers of armor. But unlike d20, they assume players and GMs have half a wit and can figure out simple things like that rather than sit around on a bulletin board and nitpick pathetically minor things so that they can munch their equally pathetic little hearts out.

So if you want to be a jackass and do that kind of invulnerability crap in your games, fine. Knock yourself out. Have a ball.
Zazen
QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)
What part of "these aren't my fucking rules" do you not just get, man? It's no fault of mine that the authors are occassionally lazy and word things retardedly without really thinking about what they're saying.

What they obviously meant to say is that gel-packed armor isn't compatible with other layers of armor. But unlike d20, they assume players and GMs have half a wit and can figure out simple things like that rather than sit around on a bulletin board and nitpick pathetically minor things so that they can munch their equally pathetic little hearts out.

So if you want to be a jackass and do that kind of invulnerability crap in your games, fine. Knock yourself out. Have a ball.

It seems like you're the one nitpicking, what with this stance that "layering" isn't the same armor layering as everywhere else in the books, but rather literally using any other armor at all. Thus the silly armor spell thing is avoided without straying from canon, but now gel-packs don't work on trolls.
A Clockwork Lime
Yes, that's exactly what it means. You got me. Despite everything I've said in every other post, that was my entire point. Gel-packed armor is intended to work JUST like that. You're brilliance and insight are both unquestionable.
Austere Emancipator
Seriously, you two guys have got to stop posting in the same threads. Good things rarely come of it. frown.gif
A Clockwork Lime
He's the one that likes to troll, not me.
Austere Emancipator
That doesn't help, you know. (And if you really degenerate into a "He started it", I'm going to have a stroke.)
Zazen
Yeah, it's my favorite thing. Well, when I'm not busy torturing kittens and selling dope disguised as a nun.
mfb
i'm not sure that selling nuns is a less suspicious activity than selling dope.
Zazen
Y'know, that's a good point.

It's actually a line out of Heavy Metal. I scored it on VHS the other day for 3 bucks so it lept to mind.
Nikoli
Heh, thought so.
noname_hero
QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)
The Armor spell works almost exactly like a Dermal Sheath. It adds its rating to whatever the character is wearing. In no way does that mean it's not another layer of armor. It jsut has its own rules for how you apply it.

Gel-packed armor, on the other hand, is quite specific. It cannot be layered with any other armor.

Yes, the Armor spell says its compatible with everything. But the Armor spell is in the SR3 sourcebook. Gel-packed armor is in the CC sourcebook, whose rules -- where it cannot be layered with anything else -- auotmatically override anything printed earlier. You know, like the Armor spell's rule that it works with anything.

I know I'm repeating myself, but can you tell me *where* *any* *rulebook* says the Armor spell is armor? As far as I know, NO sourcebook claims this, and the spell's description *never* says it is a form of armor.

So I say my previous post is the correct interpretation of rules. A 5/3 gelpacked vest plus force 4 Armor spell gives the character 9/7 *soft* armor rating, and acts as 5/3 hardened armor (i.e. defeats power 5 ballistic and power 3 impact threats). Can you quote me the rules that say I'm wrong?
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