Rules questions for 5th Options

[binarywraith]

Well, to have a DNI connection to your gun you do have to be connected to it somehow, which means it's going to be involved in your PAN. There doesn't seem to be a standard for "connected to offline PAN", which is probably the actual core of the issue for you. After all, it's not like you magically gain a DNI on your gun without any sort of connection.

Or, you know, connected to a smartgun link induction pad in your palm, which is in turn wired via DNI to your brainmeat.


But that's far to 'last 20 years of books' to actually be the case in 5th ed.

[RHat]

Or, you know, connected to a smartgun link induction pad in your palm, which is in turn wired via DNI to your brainmeat.


But that's far to 'last 20 years of books' to actually be the case in 5th ed.

Which would be a form of connection, and thus bring it into the PAN.

Fun fact: If your smartgun works over it, by the structure of the Matrix established in SR4, it's Matrix-viable connection.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It's a lot cheaper to raise a skill to 5 than an attribute to 9. In other words, I think you're forgetting cost curves.

I still think it should be something like 2:7 with an appropriate increase in the rate of Karma, but I don't think you're right about behaviors.

Sure but outside trolls you are usually looking at closer to a 1-6 range for attributes for karma advancement, and at that scale the skill has to be really low to make it a reasonable choice taking into account cost curves. I saw it way too often in 4e, sure people might pick up a skill or bump it to maybe 3 but past that and attributes just became way too attractive. Their are a couple attributes that are tied to a small enough skill list or skills most people don't care about that skills are still improved(mainly intuition/perception in that perception is about the only skill people regularly want out of that stat) and there the skill might get increased but those are more exceptions than the rule. It is not as big of an issue if you only want to improve a single skill, but once you get to the group level or multiple skills its way out of whack.

[Werewindlefr]

This was always the case with slaved devices - it was impossible to hack them directly save through a wired connection (at a -2 penalty), though it was possible to spoof them.

If you can use spoofing, then it's not really impossible. Among other things, you can ask a slaved device to un-slave itself. Or you can spoof a logon command for your own PAN.
Also, spoofing not being a thing anymore IS my problem. Nothing justifies it.

[vladski]

Thank you Michael Weston (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Honestly, they need to print up a book of all his sayings from the show, if they have not already.

It's not a book, but here you go:

Michael Westin Spy Tips



Vlad

[KarmaInferno]

Well, to have a DNI connection to your gun you do have to be connected to it somehow, which means it's going to be involved in your PAN. There doesn't seem to be a standard for "connected to offline PAN", which is probably the actual core of the issue for you. After all, it's not like you magically gain a DNI on your gun without any sort of connection.

You misunderstand.

The rule is, you get Wireless Bonuses for hooking your gear to the Internet. Not merely hooking the gear to your PAN, but actual Matrix connectivity.

By the SR5 rules, a guy with a DNI direct wire mind-machine connection to his gun still deploys his Tripod as a Complex Action. Whereas another dude, physically deploying his gun's tripod using his hands, gets to do it as a Free Action simply because his tripod is internet-connected.

This makes NO SENSE.

Unless you consider the idea that the person who wrote the tripod rules was erroneously thinking "'wireless' means 'DNI-connected', right?"



-k

[Werewindlefr]

Unless you consider the idea that the person who wrote the tripod rules was erroneously thinking "'wireless' means 'DNI-connected', right?"

I think this is where the problem is. There is a basic assumption, in SR5, that connected = wireless = matrix, without regards that each step of this equality is full of exceptions. As I said, for instance, the only way to control drones is via the matrix - SR4's direct wireless signals are gone, because now wireless = matrix 100% of the time*.
This also means that wired connections (such as DNI) are very poorly handled by the core rules.

*Another weird thing: you can spoof a slave via the matrix - which means that in a PAN, the slave doesn't directly talk to the master, the matrix handles the communication between the two! Otherwise, you shouldn't be able to even TALK to the slave until you've hacked the master - that normally requires direct wireless communication.

[NeoJudas]

Okay, I wish to step back in to the arena. Perhaps literally (hey, any of you Shadowrun Editor-in-Chief's, you listening... "K" is suddenly very interested again).

First off, I would like to start with saying that I have only had the ability to read the previews for SR5 and not a finished product such as that released at Origins this last weekend.

Secondly, the comments I am about to make are being put forward in hopes of being constructive. That being said ...

@ Patrick Goodman - Find whomever is doing the type-proofing of the documents, walk up to them, and pummel them until they are not recognizable. I have found, within the scope of the Preview material alone over 40 typos and/or typo-related flaws that editing final drafts should have caught (and perhaps it has). I know those things bother you and Can Ray *AT LEAST* as much as they do me because a typo can create any number of game mechanic/process flaws that sometimes take years to overcome if not fixed immediately. And no, I wasn't looking for them until it had occurred to me I had noticed over 10 without actively counting.

@ Character Creation - I have to reread this, I'm sure of it. I admit that I do like the suggestions for Street Level vs. Higher Powered, but I think there may be more clarifications that should probably be suggested for this section of the book. I hope the finished stuff does.

@ Movement Rates - Okay, not bad. Question. Is there a reason the Walking and Running charts for the base 5 metatypes is the same thing and just retyped, only so that the Sprinting column can be highlighted or did someone mess something else up?

@ "the Combat System (the short form in the preview materials). Let me get this straight... and I'm going to be analogizing, so please help me correctly understand if I'm off track as bad as I could be here. The new Initiative/Combat/Action system is, what I can I only call, a terribly orphaned forgotten stepchild of 1st edition and 4th edition parentage? Double usage of the terminology "Initiative Score" (one to indicate whom goes first, the second to indicate how many action sets within a Combat Turn one can get) is problematic right out of the gate. I guess I can relate to the idea of wanting to make sure that someone does not *ALWAYS* get more than one action sequence within any given combat turn, but I really think this section could be streamlined significantly. I *DO* like the clarifications to the effects of in-action results taking immediate effect upon ones initiative score, but I can also see this being a regularly intensive series of "more math when unneeded" as well.

@ Magic - is there a reason that Adepts were removed from the Enchanting Category of skills as compared to previous editions? Granted, I do like the hint of "alchemical formulations" being a learned/formulation based system similar to spell formula ... but until I see the full material, this detail seems entirely uncalled for and overly restrictive. After all, the consideration for an Adept to be able to make a Weapon Foci just seems entirely within the scope of capability. It would be far simpler to declare the types of formulations/processes a given individual could/could not perform than to make blanket rulings like the one indicated in the preview material.

That's the beginning... and only after a pass-and-a-half read through of the 5 previews. I definitely am waiting for the PDF release now with heightened interest.

But I'm very serious suddenly about being involved again.

[RHat]

Sure but outside trolls you are usually looking at closer to a 1-6 range for attributes for karma advancement, and at that scale the skill has to be really low to make it a reasonable choice taking into account cost curves. I saw it way too often in 4e, sure people might pick up a skill or bump it to maybe 3 but past that and attributes just became way too attractive. Their are a couple attributes that are tied to a small enough skill list or skills most people don't care about that skills are still improved(mainly intuition/perception in that perception is about the only skill people regularly want out of that stat) and there the skill might get increased but those are more exceptions than the rule. It is not as big of an issue if you only want to improve a single skill, but once you get to the group level or multiple skills its way out of whack.

1-6 if you don't augment, sure, but that would be characters who are utter Karma sinks anyways. If your Agility is 4((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) on the other hand..,

You misunderstand.

The rule is, you get Wireless Bonuses for hooking your gear to the Internet. Not merely hooking the gear to your PAN, but actual Matrix connectivity.

That's my point - that the rules don't distinguish between "bonus for connecting to PAN" and "bonus for connecting to Matrix" and that this may in fact be the crux of your issue, if I'm understanding you properly. If the rules had some gear have a bonus for connection to your PAN, and other gear get a bonus for connection to the Matrix, you wouldn't have this issue anymore?

[KarmaInferno]

That's my point - that the rules don't distinguish between "bonus for connecting to PAN" and "bonus for connecting to Matrix" and that this may in fact be the crux of your issue, if I'm understanding you properly. If the rules had some gear have a bonus for connection to your PAN, and other gear get a bonus for connection to the Matrix, you wouldn't have this issue anymore?

Actually, they do. The bonuses are specifically for connecting to the Matrix. Not just your PAN. The intent is that you expose yourself to external hacking threats in return for increased functionality. The 'Wireless Bonuses' chapter at the beginning of the Gear section is very clear on that.

What I am speculating is that the individual authors of different gear entries may have been incorrectly thinking that "wireless bonus" meant the gear was merely wirelessly connected to the user's DNI and recieving the bonus because of the faster man-machine speed-of-thought connection.

Because there is zero justification for gear activating faster due to simply being connected to the Matrix.



-k

[binarywraith]

Because there is zero justification for gear activating faster due to simply being connected to the Matrix.

In point of fact, by any sane logic, it should be slower to use the Matrix as a middleman than to do a direct connection, because it requires more hops and more devices to process and transfer the signal.

[Patrick Goodman]

In point of fact, by any sane logic, it should be slower to use the Matrix as a middleman than to do a direct connection, because it requires more hops and more devices to process and transfer the signal.

Preach it, brother.

[Shinobi Killfist]

1-6 if you don't augment, sure, but that would be characters who are utter Karma sinks anyways. If your Agility is 4((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) on the other hand..,

Unless they changes things you improve the base attribute not the modded one. Well except for adept power imrpoved attribute exception. So 4(8 ) will become 5(9) for 25 karma, unless you have only 1 skill you care about in that attribute and that attribute does nothing on its own people wont be improving skills past 3 after char gen until that stat hits 6. End result for some reason shadowrunners are perfect beings fairly early into their carreer.

[binarywraith]

Preach it, brother.

Amen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)


That said, in the name of not making my players feel screwed, I'll probably end up having to houserule that DNI and PAN connections count as 'wireless active' for purposes of getting the bonus.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Amen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)


That said, in the name of not making my players feel screwed, I'll probably end up having to houserule that DNI and PAN connections count as 'wireless active' for purposes of getting the bonus.

For a lot of things I don't care and am willing to roll with the rule. But things like wireless and reaction enhancers not working together and other things that make my roll my eyes I am just cutting it.(especially with a mage spell getting you +8 init and +4d6, I don't feel the need to punish street Sams)

Per table it will come down to a bunch of things.
1. Do you think deckers needed these combat actions? (my table no, I think majority of tables no, but some tables yes)
2. Do you buy this cloud computing is faster argument? (my tale, for really complex things sure, most things in SR not so much)
3. Do you find the idea of going wireless too stupid to be used basically meaning all the bonuses are just gone from your game world if not house ruled?
4. Are you willing to give any rule a shot no matter how bad you find it to be?
5. Can you fathom a world where this works in the game or do you have to play the world dumb in order to let players survive while attempting wireless?
6. Do you see any carrot or just a big stick?
etc. etc.

Nothing anyone says will change most of these things, if you think the idea of sending tasks to the matric to be handled by distributed computing being faster than DNI is lame, nothing is going to change that.

[binarywraith]

Oh, I agree with you fully there. I go a bit farther, as I personally feel it is idiotically bad design as presented. It's just going to take some sitting down and tinkering to craft a houserule for it that doesn't feel like I'm arbitrarily screwing my players over because I don't like the design choice that's being forced on us, though.

[Werewindlefr]

Nothing anyone says will change most of these things, if you think the idea of sending tasks to the matric to be handled by distributed computing being faster than DNI is lame, nothing is going to change that.

In real life, distributed computing is never used for tasks that can be accomplished in seconds or less, because of all the latency induced by having to communicate with remote servers (In Shadowrun, the speed of light is still a limit!), tasks distribution and management, etc. It's really useful when what you want to calculate things that would take hours or days on a personal computer.

And Shadowrun commlinks have been able to run Semiautonomous Knowbots/Agents for 20 years, and small AIs for 5 to 10 years. I don't see anything in the wireless bonus that look like it would require more complexity than an autosoft, and certainly not something as demanding as an AI.
Let's face it: this rule is a 100% pure gamey product which cannot be properly justified in SR's world.

[Shinobi Killfist]

While I agree its 100% gamey, what distributed comouting looks like in 2070 may be different. I think the idea is the matrix is so everywhere there really is no latency, the time it takes to go to the matrix is the same time it takes an eelctrical impulse to travel trough your body.

[Werewindlefr]

While I agree its 100% gamey, what distributed comouting looks like in 2070 may be different. I think the idea is the matrix is so everywhere there really is no latency, the time it takes to go to the matrix is the same time it takes an eelctrical impulse to travel trough your body.

It's going to the matrix (and several nodes there) + computing + going back, vs. traveling 1 or 2 yards physically at lightspeed (or a significant fraction thereof for wired signals) via wireless or DNI.
Yeah, I won't buy the FTL matrix.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It's going to the matrix (and several nodes there) + computing + going back, vs. traveling 1 or 2 yards physically at lightspeed (or a significant fraction thereof for wired signals) via wireless or DNI.
Yeah, I won't buy the FTL matrix.

No, my point is it is going so fast there is no noticeable latency. Its the supercomputer to run pac man argument turned on its head. Computing is necesarry, its done faster in the matrix, there is no noticeable latency. Instead of sure less latency with DNI, but slower computing which gives away more time than the fraction of a second lost in matrix latency.

[binarywraith]

No, my point is it is going so fast there is no noticeable latency. Its the supercomputer to run pac man argument turned on its head. Computing is necesarry, its done faster in the matrix, there is no noticeable latency. Instead of sure less latency with DNI, but slower computing which gives away more time than the fraction of a second lost in matrix latency.

Sorry, man, but no matter how fast the computing, the speed of light in the medium of fiber optic nerve replacements is still massively faster than the speed of radio communications with transmission lag added for each device that has to receive, process, and re-send data along the way.

There's no way in hell that every piece of gear is doing enough processing to make up for the difference in that lag, especially the stuff that is literally just sending a 1/0 state change.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Its the speed of radio for like 5 feet then its speed of light as well. The Matrix is going to be made up of data transmitted through fber optic cables etc I suspect with wireless hookups. So yeah I think the theory they are pushing this with is that there really is no noticeable lag.

Like I said earlier, this is an on off state either you buy what they are selling or you think they are full of crap. I also fall into the full of crap side of the argument for most things, but I can see enough people either buying it or accepting it enough to enjoy mechanics they like. Why anyone thinks Street Samns needed a stick when they were already the crapped on archetype I have no idea, but hey I guess revenge of the nerds is awesome and stuf so you have to beat up on the jock archetype in the games you make/play as well.

[NeoJudas]

Preach it, brother.

*Lights a Candle ... opens it up for others to share in*

[NeoJudas]

Its the speed of radio for like 5 feet then its speed of light as well. The Matrix is going to be made up of data transmitted through fber optic cables etc I suspect with wireless hookups. So yeah I think the theory they are pushing this with is that there really is no noticeable lag.

Like I said earlier, this is an on off state either you buy what they are selling or you think they are full of crap. I also fall into the full of crap side of the argument for most things, but I can see enough people either buying it or accepting it enough to enjoy mechanics they like. Why anyone thinks Street Samns needed a stick when they were already the crapped on archetype I have no idea, but hey I guess revenge of the nerds is awesome and stuf so you have to beat up on the jock archetype in the games you make/play as well.

You know, I *NEVER* thought of it quite this way. I was always a person in the middle. Large enough and lethal enough to hold my ground, but "brainy" enough to be always counted among the science club geeks. This really makes me want to bring in something, or rather, bring out something from the hiding areas of the old HHH stuff and see what people think of it. Something to dwell on I suppose.

*BUT* to stay on topic, distributed processing I can see maybe giving anything a speed boost, quantum computing or not. But *UNLESS* everything is moving at the quantum speeds (FTL, Hyperlight Communications, etc), then there is simply no way to accomodate what has been put forward at this point in the previews.

I will also go on record as saying that until I see and get to test out here locally the whole "limits on actions" things as presented in 5th Edition so far, I am definitely going to veer wide from it. As weill many, many, other groups as well I feel.

[Aaron]

In point of fact, by any sane logic, it should be slower to use the Matrix as a middleman than to do a direct connection, because it requires more hops and more devices to process and transfer the signal.

That would be true if the capability of Device A was based on its connection speed with Device B (even if either device is a metahuman brain). It's not.