Catalyst's garbage, Are there any SR books worth reading since "War!"? Options

[Fatum]

Thanks for the answer, hermit!

MET 2000 isn't Blackwater. They're Belltower. Only a lot more competent (really, Belltower goons are awfully stupid).

But what are their relationships with the Eastern European governments and power players? Or is that not revealed in the book?

[hermit]

Not in that book; I'll check other german-only books. Pegasus is very careful with writing for anyplace other than Germany, Switzerland and Austria, because they're afraid their stuff will just get trampled. Sorry.

[Jaid]

Not in that book; I'll check other german-only books. Pegasus is very careful with writing for anyplace other than Germany, Switzerland and Austria, because they're afraid their stuff will just get trampled. Sorry.

oh, well, lucky for them they didn't just have all of those troops worldwide get handwaved into non-existence then ?(apparently to the point where they have less impact worldwide than a unit of 3,000 marines...)

wait...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

dangit.

never mind.

[hermit]

They'll not directly translate stormfront, btw; they'll lob a "summary" of "important developments" into a pdf book with info from other things they never translated, like the hook books, according to the recent Shadowrun workshop at German NordCon.

[Wakshaani]

Not in that book; I'll check other german-only books. Pegasus is very careful with writing for anyplace other than Germany, Switzerland and Austria, because they're afraid their stuff will just get trampled. Sorry.

In a reflection of that, I'm really reluctant to do anything for Germany (And Switzerland and Austria) because I know Pegasus is actively doing stuf fthere and I don't want to trample on it.

Mind you, there was a long, *long* discussion on the pros and cons of certain dragons dying in the Civil War. *cough*

As for the FMC's ship, the 884 meter bit is an error and should be feet/272 meters. Feel free to pencil that into your copy of the book. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Beyond that, well, I can't say. Not my plot. (There was some back n forth about it between myself and the writer, mind, in regards to Sirrurg going Godzilla and all that.) I'd personally suggest that lots of what was stated was a communication issue by an unreliable narrator and that the truth is somewhat less impressive. Everything out of that region was crazy garbled by magci, a certain blue gas, and the usual vagarities of war. Several Shadowrunners didn't make it out of there with the same umber of parts that they went in, and some didn't make it out at all.

Probably more detail later on, when the region's touched on again.

(I'm reminded of a spot in Storm Front, where I eyeballed a line about nationalism, since it was written with only the new Japanese Imperial State as a focus and how it might be read to condemn just them in a sort of racist brush. I blew it out larger, ducking the easy Godwin, looked at it, and went, "Great, everyone will get it!" ... then started getting blowback about how all of these empires were bad but, since I didn't call out the US, that it was fine and dandy for US imperialism but not anyone else. Gotta say, didn't see *that* read in my tealeaves and I had to step in here and let everyone know that, now, it was a blanket condemnation, but "But it's OK if you're an American." Of course, in teh same book, I took the guy talking about my home state and made him a huge jerk to make sure I didn't get Mary Sue juice anywhere on me... and then got assaulted for treating that mindset 'contemptuously'. Some days, you can't win.)

[binarywraith]

Well, there's a new explanation for Bogota!'s writing issues.

The entire thing is written by an unreliable narrator. Hence why much of it doesn't make sense, and ingame and out of game data blends in spots.

[CanRay]

The entire thing is written by an unreliable narrator.

Every book in shadowrun that's a ShadowLand/JackPoint post is unreliable narrator. It's printed in-universe.

I mean, seriously, if someone put out a book written by Plan 9 would anyone even believe a word of it, despite the fact that we know, Metagaming, that every point he makes is actually right?

[binarywraith]

Of course not, although usually they don't let the Jackpointers write the rules sections. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Nath]

Of course, in teh same book, I took the guy talking about my home state and made him a huge jerk to make sure I didn't get Mary Sue juice anywhere on me... and then got assaulted for treating that mindset 'contemptuously'.

I would be inclined to say "Mary Sue" often has more to do with content rather than form.

Sourcebooks ought to be about interesting things. Problems arise when authors systematically misinterpret "interesting" to mean "significant" and "significant" to mean "important". Sourcebooks then end up always being about the best something, which often require to first remove the previous best something in that particular field to make room for the new development.

Another issue is both authors and their audience have trouble understanding a situation that involve more than a dozen of interacting protagonists. There is thus a temptation to definitively remove players from the picture instead of simply acknowledging they're just not going to be involved in that particular plot.

In this regard, any author who get a character to replace another one previously introduced by another author is quite likely to receive the Mary Sue label. To introduce a new character only means the author consider it to be interesting. To swap two characters by introducing one and removing another one at the same time suggest the author consider the former to be more interesting than the latter. The problem is, the author often only establishes the new character as more important and more significant than his predecessor, not realizing it may not be enough for the audience to consider it also as more interesting.

Every book in shadowrun that's a ShadowLand/JackPoint post is unreliable narrator. It's printed in-universe.

I mean, seriously, if someone put out a book written by Plan 9 would anyone even believe a word of it, despite the fact that we know, Metagaming, that every point he makes is actually right?

It was previously supposed to be an unreliable-but-knowledgeable narrator.

When Frosty says the likely explanation for Telestrian Industries campaign contributions to two Tir Tairngire princes is an Illuminates of the New Dawn infiltration (Dirty Tricks, page 153), and no one on Jackpoint call her out, "unreliable narrator" starts being a tad short as an excuse for silliness.

[lokii]

In a reflection of that, I'm really reluctant to do anything for Germany (And Switzerland and Austria) because I know Pegasus is actively doing stuf fthere and I don't want to trample on it.

If I'm not mistaken they don't really do a lot with either Switzerland or Austria. There is also the desperate rest of Europe begging for attention ... unless of course it's the wrong kind, the GeMiTo-kind then we are very, very displeased. So, no pressure, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'd personally suggest that lots of what was stated was a communication issue by an unreliable narrator and that the truth is somewhat less impressive. Everything out of that region was crazy garbled by magci, a certain blue gas, and the usual vagarities of war. Several Shadowrunners didn't make it out of there with the same umber of parts that they went in, and some didn't make it out at all.

That might solve it for you personally. But I believe the issue is with the intent of stated "facts". Because usually what is written down is factual, unless it is vague or explicitly cast into doubt. So it might be later revised by showing the old information to be unreliable, but I would argue that happens rather seldom or at least only to a tiny fraction of all stated facts.

I mean, seriously, if someone put out a book written by Plan 9 would anyone even believe a word of it, despite the fact that we know, Metagaming, that every point he makes is actually right?

I believe there are counter examples.

[Fatum]

To represent an unreliable narrator, the authors should have worked with shadowtalkers. They're supposedly world-class professionals, if it's something widely off-target that's written in the file, why isn't any of them pointing it out?
Hell, shadowtalkers are a great way to underscore unreliability of the text even without directly contradicting it. For instance, main text goes "hurr that particular corp/merc unit/item is so good!", shadowtalkers blast it with "lol fanboi", and it is immediately clear that it might not really be all that great as presented.
Instead, we get Kane shouting "Semper Fi" in the comments.

[DWC]

To represent an unreliable narrator, the authors should have worked with shadowtalkers. They're supposedly world-class professionals, if it's something widely off-target that's written in the file, why isn't any of them pointing it out?
Hell, shadowtalkers are a great way to underscore unreliability of the text even without directly contradicting it. For instance, main text goes "hurr that particular corp/merc unit/item is so good!", shadowtalkers blast it with "lol fanboi", and it is immediately clear that it might not really be all that great as presented.
Instead, we get Kane shouting "Semper Fi" in the comments.

To be fair, Kane's endorsement is a double canister broadside to anyone's credibility.

[hermit]

To be fair, Kane's endorsement is a double canister broadside to anyone's credibility.

You sure? Because for a couple books now, he's been written up as THE standard of coolness.

[Sendaz]

You sure? Because for a couple books now, he's been written up as THE standard of coolness.

Kane probably paid off the writers for that or promised them tickets to the show. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[bannockburn]

Kane's cool?
He's goofy and over the top. Sure, some of the stuff he does is cool. Even outrageous.

But mostly, he's kind of a dick. Almost like Eldrad (nsfw).

[Fatum]

Eldrad is a different kind of dick. Eldrad is LN (N at worst), Kane is CN (N at best), basically.

[CanRay]

Kane is just the poster child for Pink Mohawk. If we need something insane or outrageous or unthinkable done, we pull out Kane.

Just like /derp/grrl was used (too much) for the, "Duh, I never heard of that in my Corporate-Safe Education" comments requiring exposition.

[Udoshi]

Just like /derp/grrl was used (too much)

is this what spurred the 'well, lets grow her up a bit and make her more serious?' bit? Who's idea was that, anyway?

[CanRay]

is this what spurred the 'well, lets grow her up a bit and make her more serious?' bit? Who's idea was that, anyway?

Partly.

[Wakshaani]

is this what spurred the 'well, lets grow her up a bit and make her more serious?' bit? Who's idea was that, anyway?

It was time, to say the least, for her to grow up and take part. Bull did a bang-up job on that, and we've been happy to follow along this brave new trail.

Of coruse, now we lack someone to ask the easy questions...

[bannockburn]

Pitch: MooDragon gains sentience with an eGhost and is now asking all kinds of fun stuff!

[binarywraith]

It was time, to say the least, for her to grow up and take part. Bull did a bang-up job on that, and we've been happy to follow along this brave new trail.

Of coruse, now we lack someone to ask the easy questions...

I've felt this is a problem ever since the switch from Shadowland to Jackpoint. Not being an open system means that anyone posting there has to be at least relatively cool, or FJ would have brainburned them. Makes for a lot less chances to put in unreliable narration in the comments.

[hermit]

Especially if the writing desperatly needs unreliable narrators so rough edges can be smoothed out, do put it diplomatically.

[Bigity]

Yup not a fan of JackPoint myself either

[Not of this Worl...]

It has long made the garbage a lot harder to handwave away. The myriad opposing views in Shadowland always gave the GM a good reason to dismiss things he didn't like from his game.