blindness and blindfighting Options

[Kakkaraun]

[mfb]

for once, i agree with kakkaraun. (as an aside, however, i'd still apply the blind-fire mod if the blind guy had no way of knowing where the target is--a high stealth roll, a silence spell, whatever).

[A Clockwork Lime]

Right, there's a different between Blind Fire and Total Darkness. Blind Fire only occurs when you're shooting randomly, and thus have no clue where the opponent is. It's not a visibility penalty, it's an ignorance penalty.

Oddly enough, the Blind Fighting adept power helps out with that. I guess it's supposed to be more of a divination-oriented power than a sensory enhancement.

[kuroko]

[mfb]

well, blindness doesn't affect astral sight regardless. why did you halve the penalty?

[A Clockwork Lime]

[mfb]

er, right. i meant that a blind man is still able to see using astral percep, if he has it; kuroko's wording indicated s/he thought that blindness cuts off astral percep as well.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Gotcha.

[Kakkaraun]

[mfb]

not according to the rules, kakkaraun, which is why i created the spiritblind flaw.

[A Clockwork Lime]

[Kakkaraun]

Yes. Because there's that part in the rules that says that there's a "distraction modifier for seeing both planes at once." Rather than the thing that says that astral vision overrides physical vision, which isn't in the books.

Oh wait. Scratch that, reverse it.

Unless, of course, you can point me to an actual passage that says that the mod for viewing the astral is for "distraction." Which you can't, so the point's moot anyway.

[A Clockwork Lime]

As previously referenced multiple times.

SR3 p 173, Astral Interaction: "Using astral perception can be distracting. Whenever you have to perform a completely mundane, non-magical task while using astral perception, you suffer a +2 target number modifier."

Your ignorance personified in all its wondrous glory. Again. Do you need me to quote the Blind flaw for you again, too? Because, just like that one, it's so keenfully hidden in the rules -- you know, right where you expect them to be.

[Kakkaraun]

Really? That's odd, because all of pg 173 is on astral P-R-O-J-E-C-T-I-O-N. How can you see with both astral and physical eyes when they're as far as miles and miles from each other?

[A Clockwork Lime]

That's what we call a "typo." The page is 172. Not that you bothered to look as nothing on page 173 is labeled "Astral Interaction."

[Kakkaraun]

Yes, I know.

But, that "distraction" penalty is ambiguous at best, it says nothing about seeing two planes at one time. And, guess what, the penalty still applies when you're PROJECTING. Hmmmmmmm.

Maybe we should talk about how MitS says you can't see physical things, only their "shadow representations." And how the Astral Perception mods table--or, well, anything in any book, excepting your one vague reference--fails to mention anything about "distraction."

[A Clockwork Lime]

Of course it's "ambigious" because it proves that you're blantantly and completely wrong. Just like you are about the Blind flaw.

Deal with it.

And, again, the rules in MitS that you're referring to are for Astral Patrolling; ie, projecting/spirit duty.

But hey, if you want to just say the distraction penalty is exactly that and has no bearing on physical vision, groovy. A blind character suffers a cumulative +4 penalty in that case. Good job.

[Kakkaraun]

Let's throw more onto my pile: MitS, page 80: "The intangible "shadows" and auras of physical objects and beings are also visible but intangible." Shadows and auras, because you can't actually see them. Also, this section makes no distinction between the modifiers between PROJECTION and PERCEPTION. Now, I'm not entirely certain...but I'm pretty sure that your eyeballs don't float around with you when you project. Wait, actually, I am certain.

[Kakkaraun]

[A Clockwork Lime]

You're right, it has nothing to do with astral patrolling.

Instead, it has to do with astral projection in general. Considering its amongst sections like "astral terrain," "passing through Earth," and "getting lost."

My mistake.

[Kakkaraun]

Nope, it's under the heading "The Astral Plane."

[A Clockwork Lime]

No, it's in the Planes chapter, which is clearly talking about the astral plane itself. Trying reading the second paragraph on page 80. Note these words in particular:

"This chapter contains information on the landscape of astral space, including the astral form of the Earth itself and the impressions left by strong emotional or magical events, called Background Count."

I know how often my characters "get lost" or have the opportunity to "pass through Earth" while perceiving. Yessir. Your reading comprehension is without question.

Regardless, your interpretation of the rules state that a blind character is actually worse off using astral perception than a non-blind character. They suffer the +2 penalty dictated under the Blind flaw AND the +2 penalty for being distracted by both worlds (or as you're clutching onto, the "'shadow' representations of the physical). Blind dual-beings stilll only get rid of one of those penalties (the +2 from distraction).

So no matter how you slice it, you're still blatantly wrong.

[Kakkaraun]

Eh, this is so much fun, I'll keep going:

SR3, pg 171: "[A]stral perception does not rely on physical vision in any way, it is a psychic sense." Wow. Now THAT surely isn't ambiguous...

Same page: Aw, screw it. I was going to continue, but there just isn't any point.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Of course it doesn't rely on it. You can still use astral perception if your eyes are plucked from your skull. But that doesn't mean for most characters using astral perception, it completely overrides their physical sight.

As demonstrated, without any ambigiouity in any way whatsoever, by the Blind flaw.

I'll quote it for you one more time.

"Magically active characters with the Blind Flaw may still use astral perception as a form of sight. Such characters receive a +2 target modifier for visual tests based solely in the physical world."

Gasp!

[Kakkaraun]

Yes, duh, because you get a +2 modifier for all uses of astral sight when things are pertaining to the real world, because everything is a "shadow" reflection. Things are muddied. Dual beings don't get this modifier, though.

Oh, and one more time:

"in any way"

"in any way"

Ahhhhh....now this just feels good. It's even cuter to watch you try and run and hide when you're so obviously wrong.

AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! AHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!