noticed an inconsistency in the rules. the TN penalty for the Blind flaw is +6; the TN for total darkness / blindfire is +8. we'll assume that the difference stems from the fact that a blind person's had time to get used to their disability.

the blindfighting adept power reduces penalties from blindfiring or full darkness from +8 to +4. what's its effect on blindness? does it reduce the +6 to +4, or +2 (-4 from blindfire/full darkness), or +3 (1/2 blindfire/full darkness penalty)?

I'd be inclined to go with +3.

~J

A blind adept? As a concept character, I suppose I would be okay with it but I would be suspicious of the player who handed me that sheet...

As for blind fire, that would imply that someone gave a gun to the blind adept. Yeah, okay... Now I am not sure about the rest of you but I sure as frag am not going to stand too close to him.

why not? with spatial recognition, hi-freq hearing, and select sound filter, you can all but pinpoint the location of everyone around you. from there, you can open up a can of suppressive-fire whoopass with your 6 bonus die and your centering against that measley +2 TN mod.

Daredevil with a gun?
(excuse my cynicism, I am just like that sometimes)

*shrug* whatever works. my main interest, though, is the archtypical blind swordsman.

and, if you're apologizing? you're not cynical enough!

With the (dikoted) katana, mfb. With the katana.

heh, actually, the character i've got in mind is a blind satyr physmage college chick who uses kusarigama practice to relieve stress and, occasionally, bring in some extra cash.

it's been awhile since i played a different character. figured i'd go all-out.

Forget the satyr. Go with the elf Japanese chick with the impossibly long black hair and the inordinate fascination with her own culture almost to the point of getting off at the mere mention of it.

i will kill you and everyone you know. *shudder*

Glad to be of service in cheapening and mocking your Shadowrun experience.

NO! Make her a retired hitman, tall, blonde, white, human woman! That kind of makes sense if you've seen Kill Bill! Why am I talking like this!

For the adept, astral perception is a 2 point power. It'd work pretty well for what you need.

yeah, but that feels like cheating. she's actually the reason i came up with the spiritblind flaw, posted in another thread. with blindfighting, i reduce her penalties to +4 or +3, depending on who's gm'ing; from there, my reach 2 weapon gets me down to +2 or +1, and then i center.

i'm not sure i understand why it's harder for a blind man to fire a gun at something he hears that it is for a man in a lightless room. heck, the blind guy's had time to get used to his condition.

Applying the same penalty twice is also a little asinine. It'd be like applying the Partial Lightning and Minimal Lighting penalties on top of Total Darkness. The guy's already blind; visibility penalties have no affect on him.

I wouldn't have a problem with dropping the modifier (with blindfighting) to +2, for a character who has been blind all their life and has learned to function that way. For a PC who became blind in their adult years, I would go with the net +3: they would still be more adept in their perpetual darkness than someone who runs into it every now and again.

Then again, the namesake of this username was conceived of as a blind-from-birth physmage who later learned to alternate with astral vision (+2), so I might be biased.

If that were the case, yes. But Astral Perception doesn't override natural vision, it overlaps it. That's why astrally projecting magicians have different modifiers than dual-natured perceiving magicians (one has a +2 for viewing the physical, the other has a +2 for the distraction of seeing both).

Hee hee...hee...hee. Sorry for the derailing.

Hee hee.

so, the general consensus is that the Blindfighting adept power halves the modifiers for not being able to see your target?

You are missing something here. Blind fire is a conditional modifier. LOS interrupted etc. Sometimes it's applicable, sometimes it's not. Blind penalties are permanent and across the board. So, yes, sometimes both can apply. Personally the penalty for blindness is quite generous for combat ...the social penalties are vicious though. Just try finding the black haired, blue eyed man in a party crowd. Everyone will say that you just missed him.

The Blind Fighting combat maneuver lowers visibility penalties by -2. That one's easy.

The Blind Fighting adept power, however, simply reduces the penalty for total darkness and blind fire to +4. While that is half of the normal penalty, no exception is made for blind characters. By the rules, it's less effective for a blind character than someone who's never been blind... so it would be just +4. I'd do the one-half thing myself, though.

Used together, it drops it down to +2 (+1 if generous), which isn't bad at all. Throw in Ultrasound Vision (either the adept power or the implant) and it drops to +1 either way. Definitely not bad at all, especially since such a character is pretty much immune to all visibility modifiers as a result.

for once, i agree with kakkaraun. (as an aside, however, i'd still apply the blind-fire mod if the blind guy had no way of knowing where the target is--a high stealth roll, a silence spell, whatever).

Right, there's a different between Blind Fire and Total Darkness. Blind Fire only occurs when you're shooting randomly, and thus have no clue where the opponent is. It's not a visibility penalty, it's an ignorance penalty.

Oddly enough, the Blind Fighting adept power helps out with that. I guess it's supposed to be more of a divination-oriented power than a sensory enhancement.

well, blindness doesn't affect astral sight regardless. why did you halve the penalty?

er, right. i meant that a blind man is still able to see using astral percep, if he has it; kuroko's wording indicated s/he thought that blindness cuts off astral percep as well.

Gotcha.

not according to the rules, kakkaraun, which is why i created the spiritblind flaw.

Yes. Because there's that part in the rules that says that there's a "distraction modifier for seeing both planes at once." Rather than the thing that says that astral vision overrides physical vision, which isn't in the books.

Oh wait. Scratch that, reverse it.

Unless, of course, you can point me to an actual passage that says that the mod for viewing the astral is for "distraction." Which you can't, so the point's moot anyway.

As previously referenced multiple times.

SR3 p 173, Astral Interaction: "Using astral perception can be distracting. Whenever you have to perform a completely mundane, non-magical task while using astral perception, you suffer a +2 target number modifier."

Your ignorance personified in all its wondrous glory. Again. Do you need me to quote the Blind flaw for you again, too? Because, just like that one, it's so keenfully hidden in the rules -- you know, right where you expect them to be.

Really? That's odd, because all of pg 173 is on astral P-R-O-J-E-C-T-I-O-N. How can you see with both astral and physical eyes when they're as far as miles and miles from each other?

That's what we call a "typo." The page is 172. Not that you bothered to look as nothing on page 173 is labeled "Astral Interaction."

Yes, I know.

But, that "distraction" penalty is ambiguous at best, it says nothing about seeing two planes at one time. And, guess what, the penalty still applies when you're PROJECTING. Hmmmmmmm.

Maybe we should talk about how MitS says you can't see physical things, only their "shadow representations." And how the Astral Perception mods table--or, well, anything in any book, excepting your one vague reference--fails to mention anything about "distraction."

Of course it's "ambigious" because it proves that you're blantantly and completely wrong. Just like you are about the Blind flaw.

Deal with it.

And, again, the rules in MitS that you're referring to are for Astral Patrolling; ie, projecting/spirit duty.

But hey, if you want to just say the distraction penalty is exactly that and has no bearing on physical vision, groovy. A blind character suffers a cumulative +4 penalty in that case. Good job.

Let's throw more onto my pile: MitS, page 80: "The intangible "shadows" and auras of physical objects and beings are also visible but intangible." Shadows and auras, because you can't actually see them. Also, this section makes no distinction between the modifiers between PROJECTION and PERCEPTION. Now, I'm not entirely certain...but I'm pretty sure that your eyeballs don't float around with you when you project. Wait, actually, I am certain.

You're right, it has nothing to do with astral patrolling.

Instead, it has to do with astral projection in general. Considering its amongst sections like "astral terrain," "passing through Earth," and "getting lost."

My mistake.

Nope, it's under the heading "The Astral Plane."

No, it's in the Planes chapter, which is clearly talking about the astral plane itself. Trying reading the second paragraph on page 80. Note these words in particular:

"This chapter contains information on the landscape of astral space, including the astral form of the Earth itself and the impressions left by strong emotional or magical events, called Background Count."

I know how often my characters "get lost" or have the opportunity to "pass through Earth" while perceiving. Yessir. Your reading comprehension is without question.

Regardless, your interpretation of the rules state that a blind character is actually worse off using astral perception than a non-blind character. They suffer the +2 penalty dictated under the Blind flaw AND the +2 penalty for being distracted by both worlds (or as you're clutching onto, the "'shadow' representations of the physical). Blind dual-beings stilll only get rid of one of those penalties (the +2 from distraction).

So no matter how you slice it, you're still blatantly wrong.

Eh, this is so much fun, I'll keep going:

SR3, pg 171: "[A]stral perception does not rely on physical vision in any way, it is a psychic sense." Wow. Now THAT surely isn't ambiguous...

Same page: Aw, screw it. I was going to continue, but there just isn't any point.

Of course it doesn't rely on it. You can still use astral perception if your eyes are plucked from your skull. But that doesn't mean for most characters using astral perception, it completely overrides their physical sight.

As demonstrated, without any ambigiouity in any way whatsoever, by the Blind flaw.

I'll quote it for you one more time.

"Magically active characters with the Blind Flaw may still use astral perception as a form of sight. Such characters receive a +2 target modifier for visual tests based solely in the physical world."

Gasp!

Yes, duh, because you get a +2 modifier for all uses of astral sight when things are pertaining to the real world, because everything is a "shadow" reflection. Things are muddied. Dual beings don't get this modifier, though.

Oh, and one more time:

"in any way"

"in any way"

Ahhhhh....now this just feels good. It's even cuter to watch you try and run and hide when you're so obviously wrong.

AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! AHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!