Time to break out the Sunscreen 350 Options

[Sendaz]

So Storm Front hinted that the Infected are undergoing a change. From increasing appetites to more feral impulses and increased sensitivity to sunlight.

For story purposes, I suspect it will fall on the rising mana levels and the Infected are becoming closer to their final form, further distancing them from their metahuman origins.

Game mechanic-wise I can sort of see it as it adds flavour to the type as well as balances the character against some of the more unusual abilities they can get. I suspect their increased appetites could be treated as a kind of addiction for making the characters play out the constant gnawing in the belly.

(Who left the lady fingers in a bag under the seat? Seriously, this one still has a ring on it!)

So the question is how is everyone handling Infected in their campaigns. Tragic heroes fighting against their darker selves or Feral beasts revelling in a good old fashioned blood bath (do not forget to rinse behind the ears).

[Patrick Goodman]

*grabs some nice, buttery popcorn and sits back to watch*

[Bigity]

Or both?

Personally, I see them as strictly NPCs, or the occasional one-off for an appropriate setting (like containment zone Chicago).

And good antagonists.


The 'evolving' thing has possibilities though, turning into more horror constructs and less 'tragic, sad' people and more 'hungry monsters'.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Strictly Antagonists in our games... And I like it that way. No PC Infected allowed.

[Temperance]

I have mixed feelings on PC Infected. (Aside from the communicability of the infection[s] in question.)

On the one hand, Infected make more sense as NPCs. Whether monster-of-the-week murder-target or 'how is this thing an exec and didn't become a science experiment', they make nice inhuman targets for your paid psychotic murderhobos to kill without sweating the morality of the act. (Assuming they care about the moral implications of wetwork at all.) Who cares if he had(has) a family? He's a bloodsucking fiend, not a glittery romantic stalker boyfriend.

On the other hand, if a group enjoys a nice(?) emotionally moral grey area combined with morality plays, Infected PCs have the capacity for an amazing amount of pathos. It is, after all, why people still enjoy the World of Darkness. Playing a character who is slowly corrupted by a disease, sees the end coming, knowing what it means in the long term, but still wanting to survive? Seeing what effects the progression of the disease has on your friends? Being tempted to turn your friend into a snack? Being pleased that your friend would make a tasty snack/meal? Being horrified that the thought brings you so much visceral pleasure? For some, the answer to all those questions is a resounding "Yes, please!" That can be an enjoyable roleplaying experience.

(edit) For the funny, "Dude! Why did you just rip the guard's eyeballs out and start munching?! That's nasty!" (/edit)

It also occurs to me that some Johnsons would be ecstatic to have Infected PCs as deniable assets. If they need to screw over the PCs, they are morally justified! (Well, even more than usual.) After all, they get to achieve their company's (or personal) goals and manage to rid the world of yet another monster. Or if the PCs aren't being screwed, the Renraku Johnson taking the name Mr. Brackhaven, then hiring the Infected PC runners to assault an Aztechnology compound gets to keep his own company's name out of mud, makes Saeder-Krupp looks like it's shadow-friendly with Infected, and possibly gets some Aztechnology employees Infected. Sounds like a win for the Johnson all the way around. And that's not even taking into consideration the goal of such an effort; like maybe sabotaging the development of the only viable replacement pseudo-meat for ghouls.

But then again, ew monster. Like I said, I have mixed feelings.

-Temperance

edit: Additional scenario idea.

[Stahlseele]

TECHNICALLY, they are allowed in my group . .
As long as you are okay with being double tapped in the back of the head as soon as you turn around.
If something sees me as food, i will not let that live to try.
Same goes for shifters. As soon as something like that becomes known, expect silverware everywhere.

[DamHawke]

While it would be hilarious (and potentially dangerous) to have the group medic as an infected (mmph, those extra scraps from cleaning your knife wounds were delish!), I wouldn't actually allow it to fly with my group. Not with the kind of problems they'd have, and the game-breaking shenanigans that would follow with them trying to deal with said problems (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

As antagonists maybe, but that's as far as I'd push it.

[White Buffalo]

My group has 2 infected characters in it. The campaign theme is a sort or high magic troubleshooting team operating on the fringes of magical threats, think Hellboy meets X-Files. The first infected character is a Ghoul who was a southern gentlemen hunter of evil and got infected. Now he sees himself as Blade, all the other infected are ok but not him. Basically he's ghoul Quartermain.

While it would be hilarious (and potentially dangerous) to have the group medic as an infected (mmph, those extra scraps from cleaning your knife wounds were delish!), I wouldn't actually allow it to fly with my group. Not with the kind of problems they'd have, and the game-breaking shenanigans that would follow with them trying to deal with said problems

The other character is exactly that. An ex-Dockwagon medic who was going through med school and got bit by a vampire. Now he operates a shadow clinic in the crime mall and takes payment in nuyen and, after some sedatives, essence and blood. When the ghoul and the vamp team up it makes fore some darkly amusing interrogations.

[Umidori]

I honestly don't get the whole "they're monsters, kill them before they kill us!" thing, at least among the playerbase.

I mean, sure. A decent proportion of them are monsters. But so are a decent proportion of everybody in this world. You're okay cutting deals with the Yakuza leader who is ultimately responsible for countless homicides, sex crimes, torture sessions, and many other forms of cruelty and life ruining, but you're going to automatically geek the ghoul guy just because he has to eat three dead people a year* to survive? You'll work for Mr. Joe Corporate, who regularly signs off on security orders to crack down on and cover up food riots, but you'd never be caught dead working for Vlad Vampire, who uses Renfields to meet his needs discreetly, just because he's a blood- and soul-sucker?

No, the problem isn't that Infected are intrinsically evil or amoral, any more than, say, mages are. Sure, there are those who follow the Twisted paths - and plenty more who don't, but are equally happy to lob balls of fire, lightning, mana, and the like into people's tender bits for fun and profit. But that doesn't earn any Awakened character an automatic "double tap", does it? If people are willing and able to distinguish "good" mages from the clearly bad ones, why do Infected not get the same treatment? People are just as afraid of rogue mages as they are of rogue Infected.

Now, I could see someone bringing up some points on the systemic "racism" and fear of the Infected that exists within the populous of the Sixth World. But that sort of thing should be handled in much the same way that Ork and Troll racism is - as a factor of the in-game world itself. How many GMs state flat out that their players who run Orks or Trolls are going to instantly be negatively targetted by everyone? That the moment their race is known, people will be scrambling to screw them over just on principle? I get that the Infected are scary and dangerous and evoke the whole "man-eater" creep out instinct. I get that they're going to be feared and reviled and even attacked occasionally. But that should be coming from the denizens of the Sixth World, not from your GM and fellow players.

I guess I just feel like it's lazy and unimaginative to deny Infected as a potential source of story and character depth, and instead merely relegate them to "monster-of-the-week murder-targets". Okay, so you just flat out want to have an unambiguous bad guy? Well first off, that's kind of shallow NPC design - ideally a good villain isn't just a 1 dimensional walking target to shoot at. But secondly, if you're really set on making someone a cut and dry "bad guy", do it via behavior, not identity. A villain isn't a villain because he's a Nazi, he's a villain because he's a Nazi who was one of the few who actually knew about the camps, and had no qualms or reservations about them whatsoever. Joe Corporate isn't a monster merely because he's corporate, he's a monster because he sleeps well at night even though he's responsible for ruining countless lives. Yakuza-san isn't despicable because he's a yakuza, it's because he sees 12 year old girls in terms of bunraku profits, with their being an outlet for his personal fetishes just being a perk.

So yeah, the Infected have a lot of potential as villains. They have a great deal of motivation to do terrible, horrible things to people. A feral ghoul is never not frightening, even to high level runners, because it is a mindless beast that wants to eat you, and which can infect you even if it doesn't manage to gobble you up before you put a hole through it's brainpan. The thought of a Wendigo corrupting your mind and forcing you to take part in a cannibalistic ritual is truly horryifying. Ditto to the fact that almost any random human with a pale complexion might secretly be a vampire waiting for you to lower your guard so they can slit your throat and swallow your soul. Infected are scary, I totally agree.

But it needs to be an individual's willingness to use their powers and natures in evil ways without remorse that makes them a villain - not just the fact that they have those powers and natures.

-------

*I actually ran the numbers a while back in this thread. Peruse at your leisure. Pretty sure the math is correct at this point, but please do point out any errors!

~Umi

[Patrick Goodman]

That's a dead link, Umi. Which is a pity, since I kinda wanted to read it.

[Umidori]

Link repaired, go ahead.

~Umi

[Patrick Goodman]

I'll have to take a closer look at that later, then. Thanks.

[Umidori]

The numbers seem to paint a somewhat grim picture, vis-à-vis the possibility of the Homovorous Infected coexisting with metahumaity peacefully via feeding only on the already dead. That said, it's not entirely impossible.

It ultimately depends on the exact population ratios. I can't find any reference to actual total numbers, but the sources I've found lump together all the Infected with all the non-metahuman sapients* and give that total number a value of 2% of the global population. The key piece of information I lack is just how much of that 2% total is comprised of those Infected which require human flesh. For the low end of the spectrum, around 0.25% of the global population of sapients being Homovorous Infected, symbiosis could technically work, if logistical and cultural hurdles could be overcome. Much more than that, though, and the flesh-needing HMHVV types simply cannot, even under ideal circumstances, get all their required flesh from "natural" deaths, and are therefor forced to "hunt".

Still, as difficult a situation as it is to theoretically work out, I actually find that makes me even more sympathetic to the Infected. They didn't ask to become what they are, and they don't want to have to live like they do. Meanwhile most of the scumsuckers Runners happily call Johnson are cruel and greedy people who are simply out to make personal profit by harming other people. So if you ask me who I'd rather take pity on, it'll be the poor schmuck who caught a terrible disease which drives him to kill in desperation rather than the ambitious stringpuller trying to line his pockets via mass human suffering.

*Dracoforms is probably the smallest subset here, with Shapeshifters, AIs, and Non-Metahuman Sapients like Pixies, et cetera, being somewhat larger groups, but similarly small. Non-Homovorous Infected that subsist merely on blood or Essence are certainly a significant proportion of the total, but Ghouls are stated to be the most numerous variety of Infected, so a lot depends on the exact ratio of the one type to the other. However, one potentially massive portion of the 2% non-metahuman population might be spirits, depending on how that's being measured. There are an awful lot of spirits floating around the Sixth World, and depending how much of that 2% they eat up, it could drop Homovorous Infected percentages into reasonable levels.

~Umi

[Bigity]

Undead are monsters to me because they were monsters in lore/culture/whatever growing up.

Now days, vampires sparkle in the sunlight instead of bursting into flames or tear out throats. Zombies come back to life because of love instead of mindless shambling about munching on whatever living flesh they can stumble into.

I don't see vampires or whatever as tragic figures like an episode arc of Buffy.

*shrug*

Not that your points aren't valid, and not that they aren't interesting, just my default mindset is like -ZOMG Undead (infected!)! Put them down before they put me down.

[DWC]

Ghouls aren't a problem because they eat the dead. They're not a problem because people think they're gross, or creepy, or evil.

They're a problem because everyone they breathe on, cough on, or touch either dies an agonizing death in a handful of days, or turns into a ghoul. Until the Kreiger strain of HMMVV ceases to be a Contact-Vector death sentence, ghouls remain a "kill on sight from a distance" threat to all of humanity.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ghouls aren't a problem because they eat the dead. They're not a problem because people think they're gross, or creepy, or evil.

They're a problem because everyone they breathe on, cough on, or touch either dies an agonizing death in a handful of days, or turns into a ghoul. Until the Kreiger strain of HMMVV ceases to be a Contact-Vector death sentence, ghouls remain a "kill on sight from a distance" threat to all of humanity.

This. Right. Here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DamHawke]

So by that reckoning, if you can contain a ghoul in a tupperware , they're technically socially kosher? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[DWC]

So by that reckoning, if you can contain a ghoul in a tupperware , they're technically socially kosher? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Yep. Seal it into an airtight container until they suffocate, die, and have the virus in their tissue die off 100%, and they're just fine. Aside from being a corpse in a giant plastic container. Then again, if you could smell it, it would be able to breathe and if it can breathe, it's still a potential hazard.

[Sendaz]

Yep. Seal it into an airtight container until they suffocate, die, and have the virus in their tissue die off 100%, and they're just fine. Aside from being a corpse in a giant plastic container. Then again, if you could smell it, it would be able to breathe and if it can breathe, it's still a potential hazard.

And make sure not to use it afterwards for the Potato Salad.

What?

We make ALOT of potato salad sometimes.

[Patrick Goodman]

They're a problem because everyone they breathe on, cough on, or touch either dies an agonizing death in a handful of days, or turns into a ghoul. Until the Kreiger strain of HMMVV ceases to be a Contact-Vector death sentence, ghouls remain a "kill on sight from a distance" threat to all of humanity.

I know it says "Unofficial" on the errata link in my sig, but the only reason it says that is because it's never been posted on Catalyst's site (for reasons I don't know, so don't ask). That errata, though, is being incorporated into what I work on for the Infected for SR5, and has been basically in effect since I first put it together ... hell, a couple years ago.

Krieger strain isn't contact vector anymore, and some of the numbers have been toned down. They might tone down further still; we'll have to see how things shake out.

Just sayin'....

[Umidori]

HMHVV III acting as a blood-borne disease, rather than an airborne one, will definitely make a huge difference. It puts it more on the scale of HIV - you need to be careful, but at the same time you aren't a walking plague bomb. Assuming the infected Ghoul doesn't go feral or otherwise lose their mind, their lifestyle shouldn't be too much more complicated than that of someone with AIDS.

It also makes more sense, at least to me. HMHVV has always propagated in the bloodstream, and most of the original legends about the various "mythical creatures" that can arise from the virus involve blood.

The Arabic "ghūl" was a carrion eatter and a blood drinker. Goblins, although nowadays heavily influenced by the writing of Tolkien, originally were small, malevolent spirits akin to brownies or imps, and in some stories were bone eatters. Loup-garou have always transmitted their lycnathropy via bite or scratch, even before germ theory came about and we learned about certain pathogens needing to actually contact the blood rather than simply be inhaled. There are also stories in which werewolves drink the blood of fallen soldiers. Wendigo were a walking personification of cannibalism, as was the dreaded Dzoo-Noo-Qua. Vampires and Nosferatu are self explanatory. Fomóraig legends tell of their demanding tribute from humans in the form of grain, cattle, and children, all of which served as their food. The only real odd one out is the Banshee, as the best references I can find to both banshees and blood is that sometimes banshees would appear in blood-soaked garments, or conversely they'd be seen washing the blood-soaked armor of doomed warriors. I have found no evidence of their actually drinking blood, though.

In every case, flesh and blood are the important factors, not merely breath or touch.

~Umi

[Patrick Goodman]

Until Runner's Companion, the banshee wasn't a hemovore; they actually gained all their sustenance from the fear and Essence they drained. It was something I railed against for a while, but as I started working on things more, it made sense to me that they had to get actual sustenance from something, and all the other expressions had (or had gained) a Dietary Requirement weakness. Consistency demanded something like that, and after examination I find I'm okay with it.

[CanRay]

*Steals Patrick's Popcorn and munches while watching*

Wonder if Hannibelle is getting peckish... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Umidori]

To be fair, sometimes banshees are associated with the Morrígan, who has a few ties to blood magic of a sort.

~Umi

[Patrick Goodman]

Wonder if Hannibelle is getting peckish... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The New Year has been pretty good for her so far on that front. So far.