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> Party vs enemy balance, Perfecting the balancing act
DamHawke
post Jun 20 2013, 07:18 AM
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I fairly recently took up GMing for my group for a short spell (aka I stole my GM's hat for awhile (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) in which the group decided to play all power heavy characters down to a T, which was fine at the time because who doesn't like an almost full-troll team steamrolling their way through town yah?

BUT now the squishy characters are back (plus 2 new players who are also fairly squishy) putting the group to the number of powerhouses at 3 and the squishies at 3 as well.

Here's the kicker. I cannot make overpowered mooks for them to fight because by divine accident I almost killed one of the squishies a few games back because he got in the way of one such mook and I feel bad for them because they feel really left out due to the amount of IPs flying everywhere. At the same time if I just throw hordes of squishier mooks at the minmaxers, battle takes forever and the squishies STILL don't get to do anything.

Example: Throw everyone into a 3 room building where each room has 4-5 enemies each. Powerhouses kill everything in practically 2IPs, one squishy only managed to open a door and the other squishy got to throw one neurostun.

Oh, and one of them got beat up by an office clerk. *snerk*

It's so bad that the new guy immediately requested a character remake after his 1st session.

Now how the hell do I counteract this while giving everyone time to shine? I don't want to turn this into a player vs GM type scenario =\
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RHat
post Jun 20 2013, 07:28 AM
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What sort of characters are the squishier ones?
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DamHawke
post Jun 20 2013, 07:31 AM
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Two drone riggers (one isn't a regular so he's not included in the count) a stealth-ninja styled after Agent 47 who is adamant that he only wants to play sneaky/subtle and the last one is a slightly augmented medic.

EDIT: The rigger is more into surveillance and exploding things with dragonfly drones than all out support fire.
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hermit
post Jun 20 2013, 08:15 AM
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Hrm. In my experience, players can live with only being supporting in some scenes if they get scenes of their own later or just next session. Not every character needs to shine in every scene, just, players should feel relevant over the course of an adventure.

Maybe have some sneaky scenes where being discovered wrecks the plan (like, listening in on a conversation/finding out someone's motives, that sort of thing), where your surveillance drones and ninjas can shine, followed by blowing open an otherwise impenetrable door with a drone (weak spot is in a hard to reach place, maybe some wiring needs to be cut in a vent that is too small for metahunmans to crawl in, that sort of thing), and then wrecking up a hideout or facility where the bricks can come down on appropriately challenging mooks like, uh, the bricks they are?
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DamHawke
post Jun 20 2013, 09:02 AM
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I've already done three stealth missions with them often it gets sabo'd by shenanigans.

A few sessions ago I had them break into an office building. Instead of letting the medic hack into the door as planned, the trolls decided to just bash the (metal) door in, and yay! security comes running.

Then last game I had them go rescue a hostage from the mob, a little girl. They were holed up in an 'electronics store' where it was a fairly simple gig to just sneak in (for the ninja guy anyway). The plan was to let the ninja and the medic quietly break in through the back entrance while maybe the sam and the other face guy distract the people in the front, swoop in, grab the girl then shoot the place up, everyone wins (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

However, the sam decided to get his hacker to cut the power (it was a good idea, just he forgot to get the rest of the party inside first!) hereby trapping everyone inside and the team outside, then getting the power back on again and the moment the back door got open our lovely sniper ran in and started blowing people's faces off at point blank. The medic threw his neurostun into the back room (where the hostage was, he didn't know yet) which resulted in a mobster running out with the girl and the gunnery guy almost shot both of them (I had to force him to take a perception) and she still got hurt because he shot his legs off and she broke her nose on the floor =\

I don't think the bricks even TRY to be subtle anymore even when it calls for it.
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Sendaz
post Jun 20 2013, 09:34 AM
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QUOTE (DamHawke @ Jun 20 2013, 04:02 AM) *
I've already done three stealth missions with them often it gets sabo'd by shenanigans.

A few sessions ago I had them break into an office building. Instead of letting the medic hack into the door as planned, the trolls decided to just bash the (metal) door in, and yay! security comes running.

Then last game I had them go rescue a hostage from the mob, a little girl. They were holed up in an 'electronics store' where it was a fairly simple gig to just sneak in (for the ninja guy anyway). The plan was to let the ninja and the medic quietly break in through the back entrance while maybe the sam and the other face guy distract the people in the front, swoop in, grab the girl then shoot the place up, everyone wins (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

However, the sam decided to get his hacker to cut the power (it was a good idea, just he forgot to get the rest of the party inside first!) hereby trapping everyone inside and the team outside, then getting the power back on again and the moment the back door got open our lovely sniper ran in and started blowing people's faces off at point blank. The medic threw his neurostun into the back room (where the hostage was, he didn't know yet) which resulted in a mobster running out with the girl and the gunnery guy almost shot both of them (I had to force him to take a perception) and she still got hurt because he shot his legs off and she broke her nose on the floor =\

I don't think the bricks even TRY to be subtle anymore even when it calls for it.


Part of the problem is you have basically a Heavy Action campaign where the heavies KNOW they can take most anything you throw at them so there is no penalty for their actions.

Then in this situation you will have to provide 'encouragement' for the heavies to play a lighter touch.

While they are big fish in their own pond, there are forces and tools bigger than even them.


The troll kicks down the door into a secure area? Have blast doors drop down in front and behind closing off the hallway and gas them. Let them wake up stripped of gear, cyber disabled and in a Lone Star Facility. While there should be some way to free themselves, the threat of a little hard time may do some good and maybe some of them will think going in quiet next time might not be a bad idea.

Sniper running amok? Where is the opposition sniper? A sniper half a klick off dropping the street Sammy with a called shot and special ammo blowing out his kneecap is not a lot of fun, but if you are facing a force you can not go toe to toe with, any sane opposition will fall back on tactics that will work.

Runners still trash everything in sight? Did they clean up afterwards? Any articles or blood/hair etc left behind can be used for a nasty ritual and the Azzies/Blood mages/toxics are never slow to pull out the nasty drek.

Anything your players are able to do, you should be prepared to apply in kind if necessary. You say you do not want a player vs GM scenario, but some adaptations will be necessary, either from yourself & the campaign or the players themselves and you have already admitted the heavies are not interested in other methods.

As to the hostage, you forced a perception roll, but what sort of downside did you imply if the hostage got hurt? Getting on the wrong side of the Johnson should have consequences, especially if the girl was family. The Johnson hired THEM because he could have paid the local gangers 50 each to just rush the place and trash it to get at the girl, but instead went with what he thought was a more professional option with better chances of safe delivery. The Johnson probably would not retaliate with force for an injured daughter, but word gets out that the mooks are loose cannons and the better jobs dry up as their rep drops and they get relegated to smash jobs as cannon fodder.


Part of the term shadowrun means to stick to the shadows because if you came out into the light, you get stepped on. Making too much of a fuss? Suddenly you deal with government forces with mil spec gear and stuff you can't even buy from the best fixer/supplier (epsilon grade). Think about it, if they (corps/government/crime organizations) were total push overs they wouldn't still be in power now would they. Somewhere along the way they applied the smackdown on the competition and can do so again. Especially to highly visible threats.

Be warned though, applying the stick to the heavy action player may cause complaints, especially if you bruise/maim their favourite characters to show them the risks. They have become accustomed to one style of play and knowing something out there can kick their hoops may not sit well with them.

And it does not have to be all stick, carrots work too.. maybe the better jobs pay a bonus for a 'clean' extraction or other perks for a light touch used.

If you want the Heavies to steamroll everything everytime that is fine, it's your table, but keep in mind not all character concepts will be able to run with this without some serious redesigning. The rigger will need gundrones and mr stealth will maybe need to look at sniper/distance gear, unless you want to introduce Predator level camoflague to let him slip in and out of combat like a ghost. But that just leads further down the path of escalating gear/skills/situation and becomes harder and harder to integrate new blood without jacking them up to similar levels right off the bat.
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GiraffeShaman
post Jun 20 2013, 12:00 PM
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You can increase the amount of time for Stealth and Social characters to shine using some of the most common and least costly security choices. You just have to approach security as an approach of 3 steps. A) Detect the runners B) Call for help C) Delay the runners until help arrives. All a facility needs to do this is regular rent-a-cops, some smoke grenades, maglocks, and maybe some barrier foam if the security budget is rich. Clever architecture also can help. If a facility actually has a good budget, then you can include crazy stuff like cybercritter patrols and deadly Mitsuhama nerve gases.

The problem with boot and shoot tactics is that it's the same as calling the police at the start of your run. You are giving security step A in the security rundown for free. I was part of a shadowrun that failed the other day precisely because some of our members insisted on doing this. The GM even told us later that it was a milk run and he was frustrated that we managed to blow this. It's much better if you can get at least inside, or even better already have whatever you came to steal before alarms start going off. Combat is quick, but things like moving down floors and opening maglocks can eat up whole minutes.

Know when both the police and any other responding security contracters will arrive. If you WANT the murderer's row of trolls to run wild and be invincible gods, then set the runs in the Barrens and have the police never arrive. Or somewhere with a slower response like Kent or Auburn, and with no extra security contract.

If the party was just the trolls this team would probaly actually just get low paying gigs. They'd get sent precisely those types of runs. "Go take down this warehouse in Kent, the cops probaly won't respond for 15 minutes, so just have fun killing everyone." The team with stealth, social, and hacking capabilities can sneak into richer areas and avoid the the quicker and more powerful police response.

When the police or responding security forces do arrive in force you can be nice and give the players a big warning and time to escape. The mission failed, they don't get paid, and their rep might take a hit. If they stay to fight this huge obvious threat, it may be a sign that it is time for a TPK or a mass jailing. You usually want to avoid such, but at this point your players are either completely clueless or they are testing you to see what they can get away with. Probaly they think it's just yet another big battle that their trolls will win. You can take them down with stun spells, gel rounds, and the like, jail them, then have a contact or the Fixer get them and their equipment out at great expense.

As an alternative, you can ask the stealthy players to make new characters with pink mohawks. You could even switch the game each weak, Troll Night one week, Stealth night the next.
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thorya
post Jun 20 2013, 01:08 PM
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I think some other people have touched on this, but I think your first step is to talk to everyone involved and sort out what people want from this game. It may be that those things aren't compatible and you may have a maturity issue as well from your players, so that they are unwilling to compromise to allow other people to enjoy the game differently. i.e. intentionally screwing over your team just because you're board and want to start shooting things is super disrespectful of everyone else and sort of a temper tantrum. But maybe the players don't realize how problematic they're being and you can find a solution that will make everyone happy. That won't happen if you just try to fix it without talking to them. Especially if that fix is to just put in some realism to curb stomp a few of your players, since it will probably leave a bad taste in people's mouths. (and you could easily curb stomp the trolls without hitting the squishies if you wanted to)

If I had to guess:
You've gotten the pink-mohawk over the top violence out of your system and want a more serious game.
A few of your players want escapist shenanigans like you would have in GTA.
A few players want a serious cloak and dagger game.

But if people are willing to work together, there is a way to build runs that everyone can have some fun on and play to their strength. Try giving multiple objectives. A few more violent and a few more stealth/social. Trolls make good distractions. It will take a little work from you to run the two side by side, but it's doable.

Some Ideas-
1. They need to steal some protype, but it's in a heavily guarded facility. The stealth guy can join the security squad guarding it with guidance from the surveillance rigger. Meanwhile, the trolls are on the other side of the facility, when the time comes to make the grab, they let all hell break loose, giving perfect cover for the ninja. Maybe, have the medic externally trigger slab injections so it looks like the trolls have gone down and then swoop in as a corp "ambulance" to take the bodies away and revive the trolls.
2. They are hired to take out a mob boss or financially ruin them or otherwise do something involving a gang that runs an underground fighting ring. The trolls obviously play the heavies, taking turns in the ring and throwing/winning matches to manipulate the tournament (while making it look close). The medic is doping/drugging appropriately to help throw matches. The stealth guy is in the crowd using the matches as a chance to get close to the mark or run the con or otherwise complete the mission with the rigger as assistance.
3. The group is hired to take out an entire gang that has targeted corp targets for smash and grabs. The corp wants a message sent. They need to take out the gang in a big way, but it's very spread out and they'll go to ground once they've been hit. The stealth guy locates the gang and does the leg work with the medic to set up a meet to make a big drug deal. Then they point the trolls and watch. The rigger has drones ready rigged with explosives/chemicals. If/when the gang members flee, he tracks them until they meet up with more gang members. Then he hits them with the drones and tells the trolls where to go to finish the guys off.
4. Bounty hunting. The trolls can't smash heads until they find the guy they're after. They need the rest of the team for that.
5. Recover a piece of high tech, newly developed cyber that was being field tested when it was stolen. By the guy who had it installed. They have to take out a very dangerous cybered up soldier, without destroying the cyber and then the doctor has to extract it from the guy and return it to the client.
6. They have to go into a facility brimming with a new type of regenerating infected. They need to pull out a group of scientists. They reach the center the facility with limited problems, but the scientist are dead/dying and the facility goes into lock down mode and everything goes dark. They're swarmed by these infected. The medic has to reconstruct the scientist work to find a method of halting the regeneration process so they can actually take the infected down for good (and keep from being infected with this strain). The rigger needs to get the automated defenses cooperating and eventually get the facility to let them out. The ninja needs to slip through the infected to get to the self destruct system while avoiding some detection/automated system to prevent them from being nuked. And the trolls need to buy them all time to do this by gunning down all of the infected, which just keep growing back more powerful. Everyone has a role and they're all complementing each other while playing to their strength.
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Sendaz
post Jun 20 2013, 03:06 PM
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Thorya has very good adventure ideas and for other ideas you can look at shows like Leverage or any of the Sentai style animes with a team of individuals with a wide range of skills between them, but each having a specialty.

The first few runs may well go south if the trolls try to barrel through all the scenes, but if they can survive it they may see the use for alternate methods.
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DamHawke
post Jun 20 2013, 03:32 PM
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Sorry, I forgot to mention the trolls were removed from play (they were experimental characters says their players) to be replaced with their equally as brickly main characters who do roughly the same thing.

QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jun 20 2013, 05:34 PM) *
Part of the problem is you have basically a Heavy Action campaign where the heavies KNOW they can take most anything you throw at them so there is no penalty for their actions.

If you want the Heavies to steamroll everything everytime that is fine, it's your table, but keep in mind not all character concepts will be able to run with this without some serious redesigning.

Wasn't the original intention but the bricky players wanted to play that way, to the point not one but three troll characters created that were minmaxed to death. The idea was that since the main campaign (run by the other GM) was quite railroady so I think I made the mistake of letting the players do whatever they wanted, with future consequences of course.

QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jun 20 2013, 05:34 PM) *
Runners still trash everything in sight? Did they clean up afterwards? Any articles or blood/hair etc left behind can be used for a nasty ritual and the Azzies/Blood mages/toxics are never slow to pull out the nasty drek.

Nope. They've never cleaned up after. They've failed a run one because they left behind far too much evidence. No blood magic in my game though.

QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jun 20 2013, 05:34 PM) *
*snip hostage girl situation*

The team was doing a favour for their fixer. I forced the gunner to take that perception to see the girl because the guy was playing that character as a throw-away which he said would be for 1 game only. If the girl had died, the entire team would take the rap for it while the player himself gets off scott free. It was bad enough the PC was acting dickish just because he knew there was no way for it to bite him in the ass due to '1-shot-character'.

QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jun 20 2013, 05:34 PM) *
And it does not have to be all stick, carrots work too.. maybe the better jobs pay a bonus for a 'clean' extraction or other perks for a light touch used.

I have been rewarding the team for extra clean or well thought out end results. Apparently not enough incentive? The medic always tries his best to convince the group to try and minimize casualties or at least ACT professional though this always backfires when the sammy wants to do something 'creative' if you get my drift.

I've noted down the rest of your advice, thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

QUOTE (GiraffeShaman @ Jun 20 2013, 08:00 PM) *
If a facility actually has a good budget, then you can include crazy stuff like cybercritter patrols and deadly Mitsuhama nerve gases.

I threw a troupe of angry mutant cybered baboons at them as well as psychotropic fear gas. All the cyberboons' died at the hands of one brick and everyone else save one PC have gas masks of some sort on at any given time.

QUOTE (GiraffeShaman @ Jun 20 2013, 08:00 PM) *
When the police or responding security forces do arrive in force you can be nice and give the players a big warning and time to escape.

At least they run the hell away when I throw Lonestar at them. I've used Lonestar to chase them off the scene more than once already.

I may have to start fighting with chemicals, poisons, DMSO and nanites soon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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hermit
post Jun 20 2013, 03:46 PM
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Also, you can hack their cybernetics to make them appreciate the Matrix characters. Either by using forced wireless-enabling nanites (from The Twilight Horizon), or just normally in case they haven't minmaxed their Matrix security. Just to stop the bricks a bit and give the hacky/matrix characters places to shine.
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DamHawke
post Jun 20 2013, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE (thorya @ Jun 20 2013, 09:08 PM) *
You've gotten the pink-mohawk over the top violence out of your system and want a more serious game.
A few of your players want escapist shenanigans like you would have in GTA.
A few players want a serious cloak and dagger game.

...and you may have a maturity issue as well from your players, so that they are unwilling to compromise to allow other people to enjoy the game differently. i.e. intentionally screwing over your team just because you're board and want to start shooting things is super disrespectful of everyone else and sort of a temper tantrum.

Yes, yes and yes.
One only wants to kill and loot everything (but abandons the team the moment it looks like he'll get hurt in any way), another just wants to do weird things (like boiling three dozen rats to poison a vat of foodstuff), one more simply wants his team mates to behave like normal human beings (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

The ideas are awsm btw (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I particularly like number 5. It'll force them to exercise lots of restraint. I like.

EDIT: ninja'd by hermit.

QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 20 2013, 11:46 PM) *
Also, you can hack their cybernetics to make them appreciate the Matrix characters. Either by using forced wireless-enabling nanites (from The Twilight Horizon), or just normally in case they haven't minmaxed their Matrix security. Just to stop the bricks a bit and give the hacky/matrix characters places to shine.

Ah yes, that's a great idea too. AFAIK nobody realizes yet that most cyber is totally hackable, and the PCs who have the related skills can 'help' them. If they want to *grin*

I wonder exactly how painful it would be to disable someone's wired reflexes system inhibitors.
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Warlordtheft
post Jun 20 2013, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (DamHawke @ Jun 20 2013, 03:18 AM) *
I fairly recently took up GMing for my group for a short spell (aka I stole my GM's hat for awhile (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) in which the group decided to play all power heavy characters down to a T, which was fine at the time because who doesn't like an almost full-troll team steamrolling their way through town yah?

BUT now the squishy characters are back (plus 2 new players who are also fairly squishy) putting the group to the number of powerhouses at 3 and the squishies at 3 as well.

Here's the kicker. I cannot make overpowered mooks for them to fight because by divine accident I almost killed one of the squishies a few games back because he got in the way of one such mook and I feel bad for them because they feel really left out due to the amount of IPs flying everywhere. At the same time if I just throw hordes of squishier mooks at the minmaxers, battle takes forever and the squishies STILL don't get to do anything.

Example: Throw everyone into a 3 room building where each room has 4-5 enemies each. Powerhouses kill everything in practically 2IPs, one squishy only managed to open a door and the other squishy got to throw one neurostun.

Oh, and one of them got beat up by an office clerk. *snerk*

It's so bad that the new guy immediately requested a character remake after his 1st session.

Now how the hell do I counteract this while giving everyone time to shine? I don't want to turn this into a player vs GM type scenario =\


As a GM I try to to make a point that there should be a role where each PC has their niche. Otherwise why be a team? Roles can double up, but should be avoided if possible. Second, gun-bunnies should outshine squishes in combat. Outside of combat (which in my games is the majority of the game) the other PC's will have more to do. So don't worry if cleaning out a house is dominated by the street sams. The others probably have already contributed via getting the information on the house, who the occupants are, what their reasons and figuring out if the Johnson is going to screw you over in the end.
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Sendaz
post Jun 20 2013, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (DamHawke @ Jun 20 2013, 11:55 AM) *
One only wants to kill and loot everything (but abandons the team the moment it looks like he'll get hurt in any way)
This one may be a problem child. Homicidal I don't mind. But gun bunnies that turn tail at a little blood of their own are dangerous and will sell ya out.

QUOTE
another just wants to do weird things (like boiling three dozen rats to poison a vat of foodstuff)
If it seems stupid but it works, its not stupid.

QUOTE
one more simply wants his team mates to behave like normal human beings (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Insane, completely freaking loopy. Put him down now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Just kidding on the last one.

What? The first guy already shot and looted him?

Ooops.
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AndrosDeragon
post Jun 20 2013, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jun 21 2013, 12:15 AM) *
Insane, completely freaking loopy. Put him down now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Just kidding on the last one.

What? The first guy already shot and looted him?

Ooops.


....Hey I'm that guy you just got killed thanks a lot (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif)
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Bearclaw
post Jun 20 2013, 04:41 PM
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You should invoke shadowrunner only rules.
Everyone should be able to reliably climb a fence, sneak past a dozing security guard, take that security guard in a fight, and get pulled over without the cops finding the body in the trunk.
It's not just the combat monsters here who are the problem. You are not a shadowrunner if an office clerk beats you in a fight, even if you're a technomancer.

To deal with the combat monsters, there have many good suggestions, and most of them might be successful. I prefer the plot train myself.

Set up a meet in the back room of a bar in the barrens. Have some guys in the main room who work for the Johnson try to drag the party into a fight. Try hard. And when they bite, have the Johnson not hire them, because he needs shadowrunners, not killing machines. Then tell the players "sorry, I don't have anything else ready to go. I guess we're done for the night." For most players this will teach the lesson faster than anything else. Young men and dogs only learn by being smacked on the nose.

If you, the GM, is not having a good time, what's the point. Spread the pain around a little, and see how it works.
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Whipstitch
post Jun 20 2013, 04:48 PM
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That's probably the douchiest post I've seen since that one guy suggested rape as a solution for elf social adepts.
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Sendaz
post Jun 20 2013, 04:51 PM
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QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jun 20 2013, 11:41 AM) *
You should invoke shadowrunner only rules.
Everyone should be able to reliably climb a fence, sneak past a dozing security guard, take that security guard in a fight, and get pulled over without the cops finding the body in the trunk.
It's not just the combat monsters here who are the problem. You are not a shadowrunner if an office clerk beats you in a fight, even if you're a technomancer.


I did sort of wonder at the one about the office clerk, but it could have been a matter of circumstance. A rigger attempting to hack in and override the building security might not have noticed the clerk just walking up behind him and hitting him with a chair in time. But that situation would be more about lack of team work and coordinating some oversight on one another.

Or maybe the clerk had taken Exotic Melee weapon (Stapler). But yeah.....
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Sendaz
post Jun 20 2013, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE (DamHawke @ Jun 20 2013, 10:32 AM) *
Nope. They've never cleaned up after. They've failed a run one because they left behind far too much evidence. No blood magic in my game though.

Sorry, should have clarified the point. Any residue left behind could be used for Ritual Spellcasting to find and hit the targets at a distance.

I just used the examples of Azzies and toxics to show the nastier folk who could find you and do bad things through the sample, but even regular corporations could pay for a mage to reach out and touch someone with this if they really wanted to. Thankfully samples don't last long unless special measures are taken, but you get the idea.
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Bearclaw
post Jun 20 2013, 05:06 PM
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QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Jun 20 2013, 09:48 AM) *
That's probably the douchiest post I've seen since that one guy suggested rape as a solution for elf social adepts.


Maybe you should shove your personal insults where they belong.

It's a pretty common theme in shadowrun. Out of control killers don't get jobs. Plenty of canned adventures have scenes exactly like that, but GMs will often bail out their players crappy play. I'm saying, "don't". You can have a big, pain in the butt conflict at the table OOC, or you can demonstrate the lesson IC.
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Whipstitch
post Jun 20 2013, 05:16 PM
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There's a good chance you'll have a big, pain in the butt conflict at the table anyway unless your group is the patient types who are willing to put up with some Gygax in their soup. You're seriously advocating for dangling a fight in front of the players and then calling the session in order to teach people a lesson. How is that not passive aggressive?
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Bearclaw
post Jun 20 2013, 05:22 PM
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I've found that most people on this board have a real problem having adult conversations with players at their tables. Not all of course, but a large number of the people who actually complain about their games on the board. Often the problem doesn't come from the GM's communications skills, but immature players. So, I'm assuming either the OP has a problem asserting his desires, or he just has a player who won't listen. So, his choices are, "continue to not have any fun", "fire a friend from the group, which has plenty of real world conflict issues", or "quit GMing". Or, find a different angle to attack the problem from. This is a different angle. And again, it is supported in multiple canned adventures and ALL of the fluff. If you are a psycho, no one will work with you.
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Whipstitch
post Jun 20 2013, 05:29 PM
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It's also a system whose iconic introductory session is basically a convenience store brawl with the Baseball Furies. Look, it's a ttrpg game and everyone is basically acting on the honor system and hoping that the GM is willing to act in good faith to keep things fun. I get that us nerds don't like communicating outside of movie quotations but once you've reached the point where you're baiting people into shortened sessions because you're not having fun anymore then I'm afraid a drastic measure like talking to eachother is called for.
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GiraffeShaman
post Jun 20 2013, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE
At least they run the hell away when I throw Lonestar at them. I've used Lonestar to chase them off the scene more than once already.

I may have to start fighting with chemicals, poisons, DMSO and nanites soon




Okay, well good, they aren't complete idiots and you have the power to drive them off. Play upon that. Offer them some rich jobs and have the Johnson explicitely tell them they need to sneak in the place or con their way in. Have him tell them if they fail to do this, the police and security forces will arrive quite quickly and the mission will be a bust. (I recently ran a mission like this with the target being a rich hotel in Bellevue, which is a high class area) You can also throw in some things to challenge the bricks, like company men guards, spirits, and magicians with stun spells, but first the party must get inside by tricky means.

If they do it, reward them richly, in nuyen and karma. If they fail, tell them why they failed, and explain what they would have gotten with success. And yes, give them nothing, except perhaps a karma point for survival.

If successful, well they get offered more high paying jobs. If failure, well their next assignment is low paying and total pink mohawk in Auburn or the Barrens. Eventually offer them another rich job that requires some stealth or conning or both. I'm thinking these players will catch on, since they have at least learned to run like proper thieves. They'll want the higher payouts and they'll probaly get annoyed if the bricks constantly sabotage this. Even Mr. Loot Monkey will want the higher karma and loot.

On the subject of gases, try the old classic Seven-7.

http://www.eastereggproductions.com/srw/in...ns_and_Diseases

I don't think having the Mr. Johnsons of the world completely shut the runs down for the team is a good idea, because well the game must go on. Unless you can easily and want to find a new group. It's not uncommon for a Black Trenchcoat GM to be stuck with some Pink Mohawk players. I'm in a similar situation and these people are my actual friends. Also it can be hard to find a new group, as I found when I moved away for a while. Just pay less for ham handed runner parties. There's always someone hiring for stupid thugs and distraction dummies.

Oh, and make a big deal of the high paying gigs. Have the Johnson invite them somewhere fancier than they've ever been before, like the Eye of the Needle. Let them know this is their shot at the big time and not to blow it.
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cndblank
post Jun 20 2013, 05:49 PM
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I'll suggest three things.

First, I'll also point out to the non squishy that part of Muscle's reputation is on how well they keep the squishy talent a live and bullet free.
The Mage keeps the magic off, the Decker hacks the system, and the Muscle keeps them alive from mundane attacks.
Mages are pretty damn rare and do no good for the run if in the ground or in a med bed.
Street Samurai that let their deckers get shot find it harder to get good matrix support (except remotely).
Get a rep for losing talent and you won't get any but the most crazy to work with you.

Second if you are going to run with the big boys you need to learn to not be squishy or you need to be a ghost and leave no trace.
Point out to the squishy that being a rigger in the shadows is going to require a lot more survival skills and streetwise then being a Corporate Security Rigger.
Part of the fun of Shadowrun is watching some one forced in to the Shadows learn the ropes of surviving out side their nice safe corporate cocoon.
So your squishy PCs had better start thinking about how to be more survivable or not getting in to these types of situations.
Hopefully the non squishy can provide support on this and also actively try to keep them out of center of firefights.

Finally have a frank discussion with the group on what style of game that everyone wants to run/play in and get some agreement on how to get there.
So many times a player will have one idea of what they want for the PC and the GM will have a totally different one.
Add in a few more players and it is like herding cats.

One thing I loved about the Champions game system is that the Advantage/Disadvantage system (Qualities in Shadowrun) practically wrote out a road map in black and white between the player and the GM of what types of bad things were going to happen to the PC Superhero during the game. Don't want your Aunt May taken hostage regularly then don't take her as a 30 point Dependent NPC.
Made it very easy for the GM and player to get on the same page.

It was still like herding Cats but at least the GM knew what each player was expecting from the game.
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