How do these spells interact?, Increase (body) and shapechange. Options

[FuelDrop]

Shapechange allows you to transform yourself or a willing target into a non-para critter with a body score equal to your body +/-2. What I want to know is how this interacts with augmentations, spells and adept powers that alter your body attribute.

For instance: A mage has body 2 and casts increase (body) to up the attribute to 5. if that mage then casts shapechange, can he change into a creature with a body between 0-4 or between 3-7?

[Raiden]

I am actually not sure, but since for all other purposes you are treated as having a 5 body, it would be the same for this, thought at that point I believe there would be two sustained spells.

[FuelDrop]

I am actually not sure, but since for all other purposes you are treated as having a 5 body, it would be the same for this, thought at that point I believe there would be two sustained spells.

Reasonable... so what happens if after you've cast shapechage you drop the increase body or have it dispelled? What if the extra pip of body comes from a superthyroid gland, which goes away while you're shapechanged?

[Raiden]

I would assume the shapechange spell would fail as well, I have never thought to do this so I dunno :/. I say that because I believe shapechange is a sustained spell, if you can't sustain it, either by not meeting requirements or something there of it fails. as for the sup. gland I dunno, tbh IDK why you'd put one on a mage. to much other nice things to grab :3.

[toturi]

Consistency. It depends on how you choose to interpret the line about Body. If you choose to see it as unmodified natural Body, then apply the principle consistently. If you read it some other way, then make sure to be consistent as well.

[Raiden]

Consistency. It depends on how you choose to interpret the line about Body. If you choose to see it as unmodified natural Body, then apply the principle consistently. If you read it some other way, then make sure to be consistent as well.

true enough, thought how would shapechange mess up the bioware? does it say it does anywhere? I would rule it the same as the others, so it would fail if it does.

[FuelDrop]

... as for the sup. gland I dunno, tbh IDK why you'd put one on a mage. to much other nice things to grab :3.

I was more inclined to turn our melee monster character into a bear or something. The stat boost from a shapechange spell can potentially be insane!
That said, if I use it on the melee adept (who specializes in unarmed and has something like 13p -3 as his base damage already) then he'll put bear who walks through walls to shame!

[Shemhazai]

So Increase Body spell, Decrease Body spell, and shapechange should let you be many different types of animals.

[Draco18s]

So Increase Body spell, Decrease Body spell, and shapechange should let you be many different types of animals.

Does Shapechange let you be many different types of animals?

(Shapechange lets you go up or down two points....with each casting?)

[Raiden]

from what I read, you can shapechange into any non paracritter that your body allows for.

[Shemhazai]

Does Shapechange let you be many different types of animals?

(Shapechange lets you go up or down two points....with each casting?)

The idea is that when you want to be a mouse, lower your body, and when you want to be a horse, raise it.

[FuelDrop]

here's another one: since Shapechange gives you the animal's base attributes, then increases the BASE attribute by +1 per net hit, could you then cast and sustain an improved attribute spell on top of that?

For instance: the group is attacking a submarine. The mage casts improved body on the physical adept, increasing his body from 6 to 9. the mage then turns him into a great white shark (Base strength 10), and gets 2 hits, making him strength 12. Finally the mage casts improved strength on him at force 12 and gets 6 hits, buffing him up to strength 18.

would this work? could the mage drop the improved body spell afterwards without disrupting the other spells? how much damage would our minmaxed physical adept do with a bite attack? would killing hands affect that?

[Makki]

@FuelDrop
I'd say yes, as long as every spell is sustained.
Bite damage is in Running Wild. Killing Hands should work fine, as it works for shapeshifter adepts.

[Raiden]

Lets just say, I do NOT want to meet said shark.

[Modular Man]

Well, there are three sustained spells on it, so some mage had to jumb a few hoops to even get there. That said, I don't want to meet it either. I have to remember the trick for the next time my group goes scuba diving, though.

The idea is that when you want to be a mouse, lower your body, and when you want to be a horse, raise it.

I think the idea was to shapechange and then shapechange again. Imagine a body 2 mage shapechanging to something with body 4, then gaining 3 successes. Now we're at body 7. Now what if the mage wants to cast shapechange again to become a critter with body 9? I'd put it as GM fiat.

[Neraph]

This reminds me of the Shapechange Wars. We had threads on Shapechange go for 14+ pages due to debates on the matter.

[Shemhazai]

I think the idea was to shapechange and then shapechange again. Imagine a body 2 mage shapechanging to something with body 4, then gaining 3 successes. Now we're at body 7. Now what if the mage wants to cast shapechange again to become a critter with body 9? I'd put it as GM fiat.

I was talking about my idea of changing your body to whatever you want before you change.

[Draco18s]

I was talking about my idea of changing your body to whatever you want before you change.

I know what your idea was I was asking if you're applying consistency:
That is, are the hits generated by Shapechange that effect body treated the same way as hits generated by Increase (Body)?

[Raiden]

I know what your idea was I was asking if you're applying consistency:
That is, are the hits generated by Shapechange that effect body treated the same way as hits generated by Increase (Body)?

I suppose so, but I would rule it as if you recast the spell, the original one fails. or do I have the idea a little off?

[Shemhazai]

I know what your idea was I was asking if you're applying consistency:
That is, are the hits generated by Shapechange that effect body treated the same way as hits generated by Increase (Body)?

Oh, okay. I don't know. I just think it would be cool to have a troll with a body variable from 3 to 15 (16?) who has the opportunity to change into many different kinds of animals.

[FuelDrop]

it's worse, because shapechange specifically states that it modifies the BASE body stat, not the augmented body stat. That means that even if we decide that augmentations to body do not count towards your shapechange limit then multiple shapechanges are under a completely different set of rules.
it also means that augmented maximums for a powerful shapechange spell are ridiculous. Like, great dragon ridiculous.

[Sendaz]

Lets just say, I do NOT want to meet said shark.

Gonna need a bigger boat.

[FuelDrop]

well, if the shapechange spell gets more than 5 hits then the shark/adept's base stats are all better than a megoladon's.
let's say 6 hits, not outside the realms of possibility for most mages.
at this point our adept is rocking with:
body 16.
agility 11
reaction 11
strength 16
plus his bite attack is at 1/2 strength +2 and an AP of 1 base.

on a troll adept with body 8 none of this 'multiple spells' ambiguity comes into play. Assume 6 magic and way of the warrior:
critical strike 5
improved ability (unarmed combat) 2
killing hands
penetrating strike 3
improved reflexes 3

also, let's go with 6 ranks in unarmed.
In effect, our adept shark is rocking out with:
14 dice dodge pool (ballistic).
22 dice parry pool (close combat).
16 dice soak pool.
19 dice attack pool.
base damage: 15p vs impact -4.
4 initiative passes.

This guy fears nothing in the water. He sinks warships and combat submarines in a single round. Even most aquatic paracritters should start swimming in the other direction, and fast, because this guy is moving 20/50 and has four initiative passes worth of crazy-dice swim checks to pursue them.

All of this is chargen legal for 400 bp without restricted gear.

Scrap the bigger boat, just stay out of the water.

Edit: oh, and his physical damage track? 16. just in case you wanted to try and take this guy down. If his mage buddy throws on a spell like armor or combat sense, it gets even more insane.

[FuelDrop]

Other cool combo's for our fictional duo:
Alligator (komodo dragon) [base stats are lower, but you get better AP on your bite and venom as compensation. also, you can move out of the water]
Cheetah: for a lightweight adept, a cheetah has a powerful natural attack and most importantly a run speed of 80m, allowing you to cross the distance to gun-wielding foes far faster.
Grizzly Bear: I probably don't need to tell you how badass these are. suffice to say they're getting close to a land-bound version of the great white shark.
Rhinoceros: if you can get the body 10 needed to make this transformation (the critter is body 12 base), you can turn your adept into a wrecking ball of doom and destruction. With the same adept as above (except at body 10), and the 6 hits on the shapechange spell:

Body 18.
Agility 9.
Reaction 10 (13).
Strength 22.

13 dodge.
21 parry.
20 ballistic soak.
22 impact soak.
17 attack.
base damage: 18p, impact -5.

that is what you call a battering ram. oh, and with 15/50 speed you'll be able to run down your enemy when they turn to flee.

[FuelDrop]

Aaand another question occurs to me: if you have a martial art that grants +1 unarmed damage, do you still get that while shapechanged? because at that point having an adept-mage pair built around the adept dumping all physical stats except body and throwing a bunch of points into stuff that boosts unarmed damage on the expectation that his mage buddy will turn him into a rampaging beast with shapechange and use magic to give him armor ect would be a teamwork heavy combo, but a totally badass one.