Fringe Skills, How will I ever afford Basket Weaving 6? Options

[Arethusa]

Ok, so imagine you're using BeCKS. Imagine your character has 30 karma left and was a former art school student, now merc. Problem is, you haven't bought that Assault Rifles 6 you should have, but you also haven't bought any of those art skills, either. But, this is Shadowrun, and when the fuck are you ever going to use Painting and Acting at 4? Assault Rifles 6 it is.

And that, right there, is the absolute biggest problem with SR character generation. Simplest solution I've come up with, really, is to allow character generation as normal and then allow an additional 75-100 karma (or maybe 20-30 skill points, if you use the canon systems, which are simply worse) to flesh out characters with skills that aren't core runner skills, all with the GM's approval. I am curious if there've been other attempts to fix this, though, and how well they've done. It's not a subject I've really seen mentioned much around here.

[blakkie]

The creation system already subdivides into active, knowledge, and language. You get seperate groups of points for each, and the only crossover allowed is you can spend extra knowledge points on language skills. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to subdivide active skills into Useful and Non-useful. Well maybe better naming of the catagories is in order. Thus you could allow a bit larger number of skill points for use, but the ultimate breakdown is at least X number of skills in the later catagory.

[Arethusa]

Given that dividing into Useful and Useless already would change dramatically depending on the kind of game being run, and, incidentally, the involvement of the GM. And if you're already going to do that, you're only a step away from assigning 100 karma for fringe skills.

[Nerbert]

As a GM I wouldn't really expect a player to have painting and acting and basket weaving as anything except a knowledge skill, there's a difference between what a character actively practices and devotes time to, and what a character is familiar with through experience. And, having just double checked my copy of BeCKS, players get extra points for knowledge skills. In addition, a creative player with an accommodating GM can come up with uses for just about anything in the form of complementary skill tests. For example, successes on a painting test could be used to reduce the amount of time it takes to draw a hermetic circle, thanks to your ability to reproduce details in a hurry. Acting is a useful complement to bluffing, negotiating and interrogating. Basket weaving I'm not so sure about, but I could be convinced to apply it to tests involving rope and tying people up.

[Arethusa]

Acting is a specialization of perform. While I agree it doesn't belong up there with Pistols, it's far more active than it is knowledge. And, yes, these aren't useless skills, per se, which is why the that name is very much a misnomer. But while they have fringe uses (acting for bluffing, etc), they will never ever belong in the same class as Conjuring or Sorcery; they simply don't reach as far. That's why I think they should really be added on top of normal character generation (active) skills.

[Siege]

Try thinking of two new categories:

Active (Primary)
Knowledge (Secondary)

There has been some pretty hefty discussions on this subject in the past and I find myself in the "knowledge skills have been mislabeled, implying they are somehow less active than Active skills which is false" camp.

Cooking -- how to cook and fix meals. It's a knowledge skill, but it's the primary skill used by chefs to make a living. Perform -- it's a "knowledge" skill, but it's how stars make a living.

Granted, it used to be an Active skill in 1st and 2nd editions which didn't have such distinctions.

-Siege

[A Clockwork Lime]

Three things.

First, despite what NSRCG says, "Performance" isn't an Active Skill. Believe it or not, that program is chock-full of house rules and crap pulled off the net, not to mention stuff pulled from older editions (which, obviously, leads to a lot of balance/confusion problems).

Second, Knowledge Skills already fit this role in the game. "Knowledge" shouldn't have been used in reference to it, but it was and thus you should take it with a grain of salt. Looking at some of the archetypes, they include numerous "active" skills as Knowledge Skills, such as Sculpting, Scrounging, and Weightlifting. Magic in the Shadows and the Centering metamagic technique clutch onto this even more, adding skills like Musical Instruments, Singing, and Dancing to the list. In a nutshell, Knowledge Skills were aimed directly at fleshing a character out, including things like artistic and performance skills. If it were solely aimed at "Knowledge" skills then Computers and several other "Active" skills would be on that list instead.

Third, BeCKS does nothing to stop min/maxing. If anything, it's actually worse since it allows players to hone their point-hoarding to a whole new level. You're as free to get as many 6's as you can or want, and there's nothing stopping you with BeCKS. The core systems are no "worse" at catering to min/maxing as it is. At least the Priority System makes you suck at something.

This post has been edited by A Clockwork Lime: Apr 26 2004, 02:19 AM

[Siege]

[Arethusa]

I know you hate BeCKS, but I think you've overlooked the fact that you're only free to minmax in it as you are to once the game has actually begun. Any flaws in it are only really the result of flaws in the SR system. And it's not like those are rare, or something.

The problem with the canon systems is that they carry these faults in addition to a linear approach to character building while the game itself doesn't do this. Thus, if you're smart, you'll take 5 level 6 skills at creation, all of which would cost you 30 karma each, instead of 30 level 1 skills, which would cost 30 karma. That's the difference.

As for NSRCG, you seem to have a point. I really hadn't noticed that before, though my experience with the program's fairly limited. Good to know, if somewhat disappointing.

I'm not really sure if the skills just need to be delineated per GM per game, or what, but it's seeming like that's about the only approach that's really going to hold up. Canon SR seems to have enough problems remaining internally consistent here that it's eminantly useless.

Maybe looking at Active and Knowledge as the delineation between Primary and Character Building really is a much more sensible way of looking at it.

[A Clockwork Lime]

BeCKS only follows character advancement in reference to Attributes and Skills. Everything else is just as contrieved, if not moreso, than the core systems. Even some of the things in the game that do have solid Karma costs are ignored in BeCKS outside Attributes and Skills. Example: The costs for Edges & Flaws.

I've always advocated having staggered costs for Skills and Attributes in any of the core systems, but BeCKS is just a headache all around.

Of course, saying that the core systems don't follow the core rules is kinda silly. Sure, they may only apply during character creation, but they're still core rules nonetheless. All characters, NPCs and PCs alike, follow the same "problem." But at least character creation is relatively simple, as opposed to minute number-crunching required with BeCKS.

[Herald of Verjig...]

In reference to the sub-title of the thread:
Convince the GM that basketweaving is a language skill. Get a mnemonic enhancer level 3 and 3 actual basketweaving skill levels. Net result: 6 dice for basketweaving without any combat pool involved (although you only get 3 combat pool max for combat basketweaving).

[KillaJ]

I dont know what your games are like but I wouldn't leave the house if I had to count on a maximum of 9 dice for my combat basketweaving.

[Arethusa]

[Kagetenshi]

[Nerbert]

[A Clockwork Lime]

[Kagetenshi]

[Nerbert]

[Kagetenshi]

Then you should probably ban Riggers, Deckers with any talent, and Resources A and the 25-point Resources catagory.

Edit: I'm probably coming off nastier than I intend. I'm perhaps overly sarcastic and ascerbic, but trust me when I say that if I mean any offense, it'll be clear and that isn't the case right now :)

~J

[Herald of Verjig...]

It's also a career for the exceptionally optimistic, the mildly psychotic, the thrill seekes and a few other groups.

[Nerbert]

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Nerbert]

Agreed. Thats why I have a little game called fun with NPCs. How rediculous/comical can I make a random NPC, and still maintain a suspension of disbelief. I still hear about how much people loved Thug the troll, his brother Brute, and his mom Ms. Creant.

[Diesel]

Wow, that's clever.

[A Clockwork Lime]