Ok, so imagine you're using BeCKS. Imagine your character has 30 karma left and was a former art school student, now merc. Problem is, you haven't bought that Assault Rifles 6 you should have, but you also haven't bought any of those art skills, either. But, this is Shadowrun, and when the fuck are you ever going to use Painting and Acting at 4? Assault Rifles 6 it is.
And that, right there, is the absolute biggest problem with SR character generation. Simplest solution I've come up with, really, is to allow character generation as normal and then allow an additional 75-100 karma (or maybe 20-30 skill points, if you use the canon systems, which are simply worse) to flesh out characters with skills that aren't core runner skills, all with the GM's approval. I am curious if there've been other attempts to fix this, though, and how well they've done. It's not a subject I've really seen mentioned much around here.
Full Version: Fringe Skills
The creation system already subdivides into active, knowledge, and language. You get seperate groups of points for each, and the only crossover allowed is you can spend extra knowledge points on language skills. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to subdivide active skills into Useful and Non-useful. Well maybe better naming of the catagories is in order. Thus you could allow a bit larger number of skill points for use, but the ultimate breakdown is at least X number of skills in the later catagory.
Given that dividing into Useful and Useless already would change dramatically depending on the kind of game being run, and, incidentally, the involvement of the GM. And if you're already going to do that, you're only a step away from assigning 100 karma for fringe skills.
As a GM I wouldn't really expect a player to have painting and acting and basket weaving as anything except a knowledge skill, there's a difference between what a character actively practices and devotes time to, and what a character is familiar with through experience. And, having just double checked my copy of BeCKS, players get extra points for knowledge skills. In addition, a creative player with an accommodating GM can come up with uses for just about anything in the form of complementary skill tests. For example, successes on a painting test could be used to reduce the amount of time it takes to draw a hermetic circle, thanks to your ability to reproduce details in a hurry. Acting is a useful complement to bluffing, negotiating and interrogating. Basket weaving I'm not so sure about, but I could be convinced to apply it to tests involving rope and tying people up.
Acting is a specialization of perform. While I agree it doesn't belong up there with Pistols, it's far more active than it is knowledge. And, yes, these aren't useless skills, per se, which is why the that name is very much a misnomer. But while they have fringe uses (acting for bluffing, etc), they will never ever belong in the same class as Conjuring or Sorcery; they simply don't reach as far. That's why I think they should really be added on top of normal character generation (active) skills.
Try thinking of two new categories:
Active (Primary)
Knowledge (Secondary)
There has been some pretty hefty discussions on this subject in the past and I find myself in the "knowledge skills have been mislabeled, implying they are somehow less active than Active skills which is false" camp.
Cooking -- how to cook and fix meals. It's a knowledge skill, but it's the primary skill used by chefs to make a living. Perform -- it's a "knowledge" skill, but it's how stars make a living.
Granted, it used to be an Active skill in 1st and 2nd editions which didn't have such distinctions.
-Siege
Active (Primary)
Knowledge (Secondary)
There has been some pretty hefty discussions on this subject in the past and I find myself in the "knowledge skills have been mislabeled, implying they are somehow less active than Active skills which is false" camp.
Cooking -- how to cook and fix meals. It's a knowledge skill, but it's the primary skill used by chefs to make a living. Perform -- it's a "knowledge" skill, but it's how stars make a living.
Granted, it used to be an Active skill in 1st and 2nd editions which didn't have such distinctions.
-Siege
Three things.
First, despite what NSRCG says, "Performance" isn't an Active Skill. Believe it or not, that program is chock-full of house rules and crap pulled off the net, not to mention stuff pulled from older editions (which, obviously, leads to a lot of balance/confusion problems).
Second, Knowledge Skills already fit this role in the game. "Knowledge" shouldn't have been used in reference to it, but it was and thus you should take it with a grain of salt. Looking at some of the archetypes, they include numerous "active" skills as Knowledge Skills, such as Sculpting, Scrounging, and Weightlifting. Magic in the Shadows and the Centering metamagic technique clutch onto this even more, adding skills like Musical Instruments, Singing, and Dancing to the list. In a nutshell, Knowledge Skills were aimed directly at fleshing a character out, including things like artistic and performance skills. If it were solely aimed at "Knowledge" skills then Computers and several other "Active" skills would be on that list instead.
Third, BeCKS does nothing to stop min/maxing. If anything, it's actually worse since it allows players to hone their point-hoarding to a whole new level. You're as free to get as many 6's as you can or want, and there's nothing stopping you with BeCKS. The core systems are no "worse" at catering to min/maxing as it is. At least the Priority System makes you suck at something.
First, despite what NSRCG says, "Performance" isn't an Active Skill. Believe it or not, that program is chock-full of house rules and crap pulled off the net, not to mention stuff pulled from older editions (which, obviously, leads to a lot of balance/confusion problems).
Second, Knowledge Skills already fit this role in the game. "Knowledge" shouldn't have been used in reference to it, but it was and thus you should take it with a grain of salt. Looking at some of the archetypes, they include numerous "active" skills as Knowledge Skills, such as Sculpting, Scrounging, and Weightlifting. Magic in the Shadows and the Centering metamagic technique clutch onto this even more, adding skills like Musical Instruments, Singing, and Dancing to the list. In a nutshell, Knowledge Skills were aimed directly at fleshing a character out, including things like artistic and performance skills. If it were solely aimed at "Knowledge" skills then Computers and several other "Active" skills would be on that list instead.
Third, BeCKS does nothing to stop min/maxing. If anything, it's actually worse since it allows players to hone their point-hoarding to a whole new level. You're as free to get as many 6's as you can or want, and there's nothing stopping you with BeCKS. The core systems are no "worse" at catering to min/maxing as it is. At least the Priority System makes you suck at something.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| Second, Knowledge Skills already fit this role in the game. "Knowledge" shouldn't have been used in reference to it, but it was and thus you should take it with a grain of salt. Looking at some of the archetypes, they include numerous "active" skills as Knowledge Skills, such as Sculpture, Scrounging, and Weightlifting. Magic in the Shadows and the Centering metamagic technique clutch onto this even more. In a nutshell, Knowledge Skills were aimed directly at fleshing a character out, including things like artistic and performance skills. |
Kewl, I'll include you in my school of thought.
-Siege
I know you hate BeCKS, but I think you've overlooked the fact that you're only free to minmax in it as you are to once the game has actually begun. Any flaws in it are only really the result of flaws in the SR system. And it's not like those are rare, or something.
The problem with the canon systems is that they carry these faults in addition to a linear approach to character building while the game itself doesn't do this. Thus, if you're smart, you'll take 5 level 6 skills at creation, all of which would cost you 30 karma each, instead of 30 level 1 skills, which would cost 30 karma. That's the difference.
As for NSRCG, you seem to have a point. I really hadn't noticed that before, though my experience with the program's fairly limited. Good to know, if somewhat disappointing.
I'm not really sure if the skills just need to be delineated per GM per game, or what, but it's seeming like that's about the only approach that's really going to hold up. Canon SR seems to have enough problems remaining internally consistent here that it's eminantly useless.
Maybe looking at Active and Knowledge as the delineation between Primary and Character Building really is a much more sensible way of looking at it.
The problem with the canon systems is that they carry these faults in addition to a linear approach to character building while the game itself doesn't do this. Thus, if you're smart, you'll take 5 level 6 skills at creation, all of which would cost you 30 karma each, instead of 30 level 1 skills, which would cost 30 karma. That's the difference.
As for NSRCG, you seem to have a point. I really hadn't noticed that before, though my experience with the program's fairly limited. Good to know, if somewhat disappointing.
I'm not really sure if the skills just need to be delineated per GM per game, or what, but it's seeming like that's about the only approach that's really going to hold up. Canon SR seems to have enough problems remaining internally consistent here that it's eminantly useless.
Maybe looking at Active and Knowledge as the delineation between Primary and Character Building really is a much more sensible way of looking at it.
BeCKS only follows character advancement in reference to Attributes and Skills. Everything else is just as contrieved, if not moreso, than the core systems. Even some of the things in the game that do have solid Karma costs are ignored in BeCKS outside Attributes and Skills. Example: The costs for Edges & Flaws.
I've always advocated having staggered costs for Skills and Attributes in any of the core systems, but BeCKS is just a headache all around.
Of course, saying that the core systems don't follow the core rules is kinda silly. Sure, they may only apply during character creation, but they're still core rules nonetheless. All characters, NPCs and PCs alike, follow the same "problem." But at least character creation is relatively simple, as opposed to minute number-crunching required with BeCKS.
I've always advocated having staggered costs for Skills and Attributes in any of the core systems, but BeCKS is just a headache all around.
Of course, saying that the core systems don't follow the core rules is kinda silly. Sure, they may only apply during character creation, but they're still core rules nonetheless. All characters, NPCs and PCs alike, follow the same "problem." But at least character creation is relatively simple, as opposed to minute number-crunching required with BeCKS.
In reference to the sub-title of the thread:
Convince the GM that basketweaving is a language skill. Get a mnemonic enhancer level 3 and 3 actual basketweaving skill levels. Net result: 6 dice for basketweaving without any combat pool involved (although you only get 3 combat pool max for combat basketweaving).
Convince the GM that basketweaving is a language skill. Get a mnemonic enhancer level 3 and 3 actual basketweaving skill levels. Net result: 6 dice for basketweaving without any combat pool involved (although you only get 3 combat pool max for combat basketweaving).
I dont know what your games are like but I wouldn't leave the house if I had to count on a maximum of 9 dice for my combat basketweaving.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| BeCKS only follows character advancement in reference to Attributes and Skills. Everything else is just as contrieved, if not moreso, than the core systems. Even some of the things in the game that do have solid Karma costs are ignored in BeCKS outside Attributes and Skills. Example: The costs for Edges & Flaws. I've always advocated having staggered costs for Skills and Attributes in any of the core systems, but BeCKS is just a headache all around. Of course, saying that the core systems don't follow the core rules is kinda silly. Sure, they may only apply during character creation, but they're still core rules nonetheless. All characters, NPCs and PCs alike, follow the same "problem." But at least character creation is relatively simple, as opposed to minute number-crunching required with BeCKS. |
That's a good point. I should've clarified that I specifically like BeCKS because of the way it handles attributes and skills. The rest is certainly up for a fair amount of debate. And, really, it's not hard to say that a core system doesn't follow its own rules. After all, the core rules are pretty much riddled with more internally inconsistent material than stuff that holds together. More semantics than anything else, and not worth nitpicking.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| First, despite what NSRCG says, "Performance" isn't an Active Skill. |
Much as I agree with your estimation of NSRCG, I don't believe anything has superseded Shadowbeat, which makes Performance solidly an Active skill.
~J
| QUOTE |
| I dont know what your games are like but I wouldn't leave the house if I had to count on a maximum of 9 dice for my combat basketweaving. |
Never leave home without it.
My own particular method for curbing minmaxing is to take a look at a potential character sheet, scan it for things like 6s in 6 different combat skills, and ask the player where their character learned all of it.
I don't care if your character is ex military or a born again ninja, if you were that specialized you'd still be doing it professionally instead of risking your hoop for a scrap of nuyen and the hope for a bright tomorrow.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 25 2004, 10:24 PM) |
| Much as I agree with your estimation of NSRCG, I don't believe anything has superseded Shadowbeat, which makes Performance solidly an Active skill. |
Well, save that it's a "Special Skill," of which Shadowrun 3rd Edition doesn't have any. And then there's the bit where "Knowledge Skills" weren't created until 3rd Edition. You might as well say that Firearms is still a valid 3rd Edition Active Skill. Sure, 3rd Edition has Pistols, SMGs, etc. But it doesn't have a Firearms Skill, whereas 1st and 2nd Edition solidly lists it as one.
On the other hand, going through Shadowbeat, you'd have to change "Nose for News" (paraphrasing the name of it) from a Knowledge Skill to an Active Skill. Same goes for most of the "Special Skills" the handful of archetypes in there have.
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| I don't care if your character is ex military or a born again ninja, if you were that specialized you'd still be doing it professionally instead of risking your hoop for a scrap of nuyen and the hope for a bright tomorrow. |
What the hell do you think Shadowrunning is, a hobby?
~J
| QUOTE |
| What the hell do you think Shadowrunning is, a hobby? |
I consider shadowrunning to be the last resort for the desperate. Obviously, anyone who could survive long enough to be a starting character has the potential to go the distance, but for whatever reason, they didn't make it in a more stable career. For example, right now in my campaign we have a failed porn star, a quebecua revolutionary who went into decline when the country won its freedom, a jewish adept assassin on his way up, a college drop out with the raw talent to make his way up the ladder of the shadows, and a down on his luck business man with an aptitude for spell slinging.
None of these people would be running dangerous jobs for low pay and high risk if they had some kind of better option. Better options in particular being high prestige, high pay, specialized military positions.
Obviously there are times to do those kinds of campaigns, and for that situation I'd be expecting a lot of specialized combat skills.
Shadowrunning is the career for the SINless, the hopeless, or the desperate.
thats how I run my games anyway, for now
Then you should probably ban Riggers, Deckers with any talent, and Resources A and the 25-point Resources catagory.
Edit: I'm probably coming off nastier than I intend. I'm perhaps overly sarcastic and ascerbic, but trust me when I say that if I mean any offense, it'll be clear and that isn't the case right now
~J
Edit: I'm probably coming off nastier than I intend. I'm perhaps overly sarcastic and ascerbic, but trust me when I say that if I mean any offense, it'll be clear and that isn't the case right now
~J
It's also a career for the exceptionally optimistic, the mildly psychotic, the thrill seekes and a few other groups.
| QUOTE |
| It's also a career for the exceptionally optimistic, the mildly psychotic, the thrill seekes and a few other groups. |
Yeah, those too.
Basically all I was trying to get at is that I like it when my players can justify what they spend their points on.
For example, trying to convince my that you learned to pilot hovercrafts from your ex boyfriend is probably not going to fly. But telling me you paid for the 1k worth of equipment by embezzling from your employer, spending some nights on the wrong side of the bed in a pleasure house, and generally making monthly payments for the past 4 years will do the trick.
If it turns out to be the case that your employer meets up with some pimps and manages to put two and two together, well sometimes the cost of being well equipped doesn't stop with your wallet.
Also, I tend to run a more gritty campaign setting, I like angst.
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| I like angst. |
Ah, a Masquerade player. I like variety, pure angst for months on end is as repulsive as the 14th meal in a row of the unflavored soy loaf that comes with the low lifestyle.
Agreed. Thats why I have a little game called fun with NPCs. How rediculous/comical can I make a random NPC, and still maintain a suspension of disbelief. I still hear about how much people loved Thug the troll, his brother Brute, and his mom Ms. Creant.
Wow, that's clever.
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| ...and his mom Ms. Creant. |
I'm so stealing that. She'd fit in beautifully with one of my favorite plastic surgeon turned street doc contacts; Ms. Stitch.
| QUOTE (Nerbert @ Apr 26 2004, 12:49 AM) | ||
Never leave home without it. My own particular method for curbing minmaxing is to take a look at a potential character sheet, scan it for things like 6s in 6 different combat skills, and ask the player where their character learned all of it. I don't care if your character is ex military or a born again ninja, if you were that specialized you'd still be doing it professionally instead of risking your hoop for a scrap of nuyen and the hope for a bright tomorrow. |
I should point out that runners can be running for reasons other than incapacity or lack of skill or ability. A bad temper, an inability to cope with combat situations, a psychological disorder, a major mental breakdown— these things could all lead to an excellently trained and eminantly capable person ending up in the shadows, at which point, buildpoints, BeCKS, whatever won't cut it. Take a look at a slightly above average infantryman who's gone through airborne training as an example:
| CODE |
| Body: 5 Quickness: 4 Strength: 5 Charisma: 3 Intelligence: 3 Willpower: 3 Spending 1,000,000¥ on equipment and chrome, that leaves us with 29 points for skills: Assault Rifles: 5 Clubs(Rifle/Bayonet): 2(4) Edged Weapons(Knife): 1(3) Gunnery: 3 Heavy Weapons: 4 Launch Weapons: 3 Pistols: 2 Rifles: 2 Shotguns: 2 SMGs: 2 |
None of this leaves room for three points for Throwing Weapons(Grenades) 2(4), Wildcat 4 plus another 2 or 4 points of maneuvers, any points in Athletics, any points in Stealth, any points in Parachuting, any points in any social skills, any points in an surivival skills, any points in an vehicle skills, and points in any technical skills (like, say, Biotech(First Aid), and any points in any Build/Repair skills, all of which he should have. And this is only one aspect of his background.
But, 1,000,000¥ is a lot for an average soldier, right? Well, drop it to 200,000¥, if you like. That frees up 15 points. Not much, considering the number of skills he should be packing, and 200,000¥ won't take him very far, either.
The problem with looking at knowledge skills as character building elements and active skills as useful for running in the shadows is the fact that many active skills, all the way up to combat skills, could be used for character building and little else. I can take that soldier and use an Assault Rifle all the way through a campaign without ever so much as touching a vehicle mounted weapon. If I did, hell, I'd probably be statistically better off defaulting to Assault Rifles than using my Gunnery skill. But without any value in Gunnery, I end up with a numerical representation of a soldier who's never had any training in using a vehicle mounted gun, even if my ingame performance will show that I can make do. And this doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense.
I agree that you can not buy the skills at 2 to reflect a small amount of training. This is also an issue with knowledge skills. I tried to make a character based upon myself. The normal skills were easy, just a bunch of 3's and maybe a 5 in etiquette. When it came down to the knowledge skills I realized that with 20 pts, I could not even remotely cover the amount of knowledge I as a person have (I am not saying I am smart, but have 50 skills at 3 is unreachable). I do not think the skills are accurately done, however, for game balance they work. You do not need to create a character with every skill shown in the background or that he 'should have.' Just make the character have the general skills and use the background primarily for roleplaying, which is what the game is.
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| In addition, a creative player with an accommodating GM can come up with uses for just about anything in the form of complementary skill tests. For example, successes on a painting test could be used to reduce the amount of time it takes to draw a hermetic circle, thanks to your ability to reproduce details in a hurry. Acting is a useful complement to bluffing, negotiating and interrogating. |
How true. Can a shaman use painting as a complementary skill for spell design?
425 point BeCKS v2 character, built with the same guidelines as Arethusa's above, no Edges/Flaws, 1,000,000 
| CODE |
| Body: 5 Quickness: 6 Strength: 5 Charisma: 3 Intelligence: 4 Willpower: 4 ARs(Ares Alpha): 4/6 Pistols: 3 Shotguns: 2 SMGs(HK227): 1/3 Rifles(RA SM-3): 1/3 Heavy Weapons: 3 Launch Weapons(GLs): 2/4 Gunnery(S-A M107): 1/3 Edged(Survival Knife): 2/4 Clubs(Rifle): 1/3 Brawling: 3 Throwing(Grenades): 1/3 Athletics: 5 Parachuting(MAMO): 1/3 Stealth: 4 Etiquette: 3 Negotiation: 3 Biotech(1st Aid): 1/3 Demolitions: 3 Small Unit Tactics: 4 Car: 2 Assault Rifles B/R: 2 |
To make a decent runner out of this, you should probably drop some of the fluff-skills to get higher Int and boost Pistols, flip Athletics and Stealth around, that sort of thing. However, unlike the BP character Arethusa made above, this guy is an actual human being, with realistic skills covering things other than blowing shit up. Put 1,000,000 worth of ware on it, and it's a semi-decent gunbunny that can also do a lot of other stuff if need be.
This guy has 60 Karma worth of Knowledge skills, which can be further used to make the guy look like he's actually been in the military, if that Active skill set doesn't convince you. Note the lack of munchiness or überpower that some seem to think BeCKS forces you to have.
worth of ware on it, and it's a semi-decent gunbunny that can also do a lot of other stuff if need be.This guy has 60 Karma worth of Knowledge skills, which can be further used to make the guy look like he's actually been in the military, if that Active skill set doesn't convince you. Note the lack of munchiness or überpower that some seem to think BeCKS forces you to have.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime @ Apr 25 2004, 09:58 PM) | ||
Well, save that it's a "Special Skill," of which Shadowrun 3rd Edition doesn't have any. And then there's the bit where "Knowledge Skills" weren't created until 3rd Edition. You might as well say that Firearms is still a valid 3rd Edition Active Skill. Sure, 3rd Edition has Pistols, SMGs, etc. But it doesn't have a Firearms Skill, whereas 1st and 2nd Edition solidly lists it as one. On the other hand, going through Shadowbeat, you'd have to change "Nose for News" (paraphrasing the name of it) from a Knowledge Skill to an Active Skill. Same goes for most of the "Special Skills" the handful of archetypes in there have. |
Valid point. My intent with NSRCG was to stick to SR3 orthodoxy, that is "canon." Unfortunately, because of the differences in SR3, SR2, and various books, issues like this can occur.
You'll note that usage of the module system (books) allows one to remove (mostly) material one wouldn't want in your game. Most of the house rules incorporated are "OPTIONS" allowing anyone to turn off / remove. The exception is the inclusion of BeCKS. That was due to its popularity (including its controversial free language, please bring that up with the author as I'm not him).
Please, if you find an error, let me know (include book and page number) and I will fix. Many of the changes people want are non-canon i.e. elves shouldn't cost more than dwarves etc...
The NSRCG is the results of many people working on the DAT files and suggestions for improvements (canon only, please). Rather than just gripe, help me to fix it.
I understand that the guys/gals who have been playing for a long time "don't need no stinkin character generator." That's fine. However, the newer players who don't understand all of the complexities could benefit from a bit of hand holding. The CharGen found a number of arithmatic errors with the base Archetypes already and that was with people who created the system.
In conclusion, it is simply a tool. And like any tool, it can be misused /abused and yes, even encourage min-maxing. That is where a strong GM comes in... Any GM who falls for "NSRCG allows it!" should have his/her examined. Knowledge of the rules including Character Creation is a requirement.
Thank you for your time.
This has probably been covered before by you guys but what do you thing about the dividing of the firearms skill? aren´t there a bit to many of them nowadays? Granted that very character on the planet had Firearms 6 in the previous editions. But is it really worth it to put A on skills and know how to fire a lot of different weapons, when you could use that priority to be a mage or have 1000000 ?
?
It's gone from a massive grouping to a massive splitting.
I suspect a number of GMs simply houserule this group based on their own experience, belief or preference.
That being said, it doesn't bother me quite that much -- most samurai tend to stick to the holy trinity of firearms: Assault rifles, SMGs and handguns. Shotgun, rifle and something else get relegated to the background.
-Siege
I suspect a number of GMs simply houserule this group based on their own experience, belief or preference.
That being said, it doesn't bother me quite that much -- most samurai tend to stick to the holy trinity of firearms: Assault rifles, SMGs and handguns. Shotgun, rifle and something else get relegated to the background.
-Siege
A Search for Firearms Skills produces several threads where the division of the Firearms skill is discussed thoroughly.
Some prefer even further division of the skill, as well as division in all other skills (if you've got separate skills for SMGs, Carbines and ARs, you sure as hell need separate skills for First Aid and Brain Surgery). Some prefer just Firearms. Some, like me, prefer slightly fewer skills than there are now, but still some division.
My favorite is Handguns/Rifles/Launch Weapons/Gunnery, where anything up to one-handed, stockless SMGs is a Handgun, anything up to LMGs/MMGs fired unsupported or from a bipod is a Rifle, Launch Weapons is about the same as it is now and Gunnery swallows tripod-mounted and similar weapons.
Some prefer even further division of the skill, as well as division in all other skills (if you've got separate skills for SMGs, Carbines and ARs, you sure as hell need separate skills for First Aid and Brain Surgery). Some prefer just Firearms. Some, like me, prefer slightly fewer skills than there are now, but still some division.
My favorite is Handguns/Rifles/Launch Weapons/Gunnery, where anything up to one-handed, stockless SMGs is a Handgun, anything up to LMGs/MMGs fired unsupported or from a bipod is a Rifle, Launch Weapons is about the same as it is now and Gunnery swallows tripod-mounted and similar weapons.
Sure Aust -- kill a derail before it gets underway.
-Siege
-Siege
I didn't completely kill it, though. You could flame me about my division.
My only beef with spliting the firearms skills is that I feel like I'm cheating the system when I make an exmilitary type. As in if I want his main weapon skills tobe pistols and SMGs when it should AR's. But then again I feel cheated by the fact that I'd have to blow at least 6 points on parachuting. Even then, I'd still be unlikely to survive a jump under even the most desireable conditions.
To solve this I simply suspend my disbelief. I just don't bother taking ARs at 2 or 3. Sometimes I don't even bother with B/R. It all depends on what skill set I have in mind.
I will agree that I find BeCKS to be more flexible. I tend to shy away from munchiness but I love to have a broad general list of low level skills to represent my character's life trianing (or whatever). Also, one of the best things in BeCKS is the ability to "max-out" on knowledge skills and languages. I find that I spend more time crunching those numbers trying to find a happy medium between "usefull" knowledge skills (Corporate Security Procedures, etc.) and "character development" knowledge skills (Urban Brawl, etc.) and Languages.
I know here in the States its uncommon for people to speak more than one language but in SR it seems like its almost necessary to be fluent in at least three. Especially if you're a traveled person. Even with Intelligence 6 you're only looking at 9 Language points. The most you could speak is 3 languages and at a rating three, I consider that to be basic conversation level.
To solve this I simply suspend my disbelief. I just don't bother taking ARs at 2 or 3. Sometimes I don't even bother with B/R. It all depends on what skill set I have in mind.
I will agree that I find BeCKS to be more flexible. I tend to shy away from munchiness but I love to have a broad general list of low level skills to represent my character's life trianing (or whatever). Also, one of the best things in BeCKS is the ability to "max-out" on knowledge skills and languages. I find that I spend more time crunching those numbers trying to find a happy medium between "usefull" knowledge skills (Corporate Security Procedures, etc.) and "character development" knowledge skills (Urban Brawl, etc.) and Languages.
I know here in the States its uncommon for people to speak more than one language but in SR it seems like its almost necessary to be fluent in at least three. Especially if you're a traveled person. Even with Intelligence 6 you're only looking at 9 Language points. The most you could speak is 3 languages and at a rating three, I consider that to be basic conversation level.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| I didn't completely kill it, though. You could flame me about my division. |
Bah, I'm not even going to bring up how flame throwers are categorized.
-Siege
Well, in SR, the world is a great deal more multi-cultural which tends to be a trademark of the Cyberpunk genre.
As for your complaint about ex-mils and other characters not having enough skill points, I tend to agree. Which is why I limit my character's military experience to key areas -- infantry, for example. That's an easy one to represent, particularly since I don't tend to pick up SMGs as a skill group.
If you want to buy SMG as a career choice, look at Embassy Security officers who tend to focus on SMGs rather than all out assault rifles.
Which kinda limits the ex-mil background, but oh well.
-Siege
As for your complaint about ex-mils and other characters not having enough skill points, I tend to agree. Which is why I limit my character's military experience to key areas -- infantry, for example. That's an easy one to represent, particularly since I don't tend to pick up SMGs as a skill group.
If you want to buy SMG as a career choice, look at Embassy Security officers who tend to focus on SMGs rather than all out assault rifles.
Which kinda limits the ex-mil background, but oh well.
-Siege
Embassy Security....hmmmm
"It says here you were removed from active duty for....?"
"The diplomat's daughter assured me she was of legal age for the country we were in."
"...."
(sigh) "Yes. I know that embacies are considered foriegn soil...It seemed like a good idea at the time!!"
"It says here you were removed from active duty for....?"
"The diplomat's daughter assured me she was of legal age for the country we were in."
"...."
(sigh) "Yes. I know that embacies are considered foriegn soil...It seemed like a good idea at the time!!"
I guess the soil wasn't that foreign, eh?
-Siege
-Siege
I suppose all the "freshly plowed"metaphors that come to mind would be inappropriate for this forum, so I'll skip it. 
Would artisan be considered a knowledge skill? Specifically Tattooing.
Would artisan be considered a knowledge skill? Specifically Tattooing.
I'd say yes -- although I don't know if the Magical Skill places special requirements or not.
-Siege
-Siege
Actually, they focus on assault rifles and battle rifles, training with carbines for the indoor work, mostly.
Artisan is technically considered an active skill, though I guess you could swap it over.
Artisan is technically considered an active skill, though I guess you could swap it over.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| To make a decent runner out of this, you should probably drop some of the fluff-skills to get higher Int and boost Pistols, flip Athletics and Stealth around, that sort of thing. However, unlike the BP character Arethusa made above, this guy is an actual human being, with realistic skills covering things other than blowing shit up. Put 1,000,000 worth of ware on it, and it's a semi-decent gunbunny that can also do a lot of other stuff if need be. |
True, BeCKS does get you a lot closer to something playable. That still makes him dramatically underpowered, though, compared to someone who judiciously spent his karma on far more useful things. Given that, and the very uneven distribution that skills see, the only two solutions, really, are to condense a very large number of skills (almost to the degree of bringing back Firearms) or to subdivide everything out to the level that the weapons skills currently see. Personally, I've set on the latter. With an addendum to double or triple available karma or skill points at character creation and a vigilant GM to stop the creative players from powergaming the hell out of it. Personally, I'm giving a shot at rewriting the skills lists to fit just that, and I think it really could work. Either direction's viable, though.
One quick slight aside, though I'd like to not derail my own thread: what's wrong with the parachuting rules? Not saying their fine; just looking for specific issues, though, looking at them, I think I have a pretty good idea of why they could be way too harsh.
| QUOTE (kevyn668) |
| "It says here you were removed from active duty for....?" "The diplomat's daughter assured me she was of legal age for the country we were in." "...." (sigh) "Yes. I know that embassies are considered foriegn soil...It seemed like a good idea at the time!!" |
Excellent dialogue
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| Basket weaving I'm not so sure about, but I could be convinced to apply it to tests involving rope and tying people up. |
guard 3 "are you guys ok? those runners really did a number on you"
guard 1 "yes, but look at these knots! They're exquisite!"
guard 2 "yes, yes. simply astonishing. they really take pride in what they do!"
guard 1 "I agree whole-heartedly!"
guard 3 "i'm just going to leave you two here..."
| QUOTE (Arethusa @ Apr 25 2004, 05:32 PM) |
| the absolute biggest problem with SR character generation [is the lack of a technique] to flesh out characters with skills that aren't core runner skills. I am curious if there've been other attempts to fix this, though, and how well they've done. |
My first GM (1st edition) gave each of us 10 points of "useless" skills for free. Cooking, drawing, comic ideas, rock & roll, 19th century history, S&M styles, etc. You could take singing or dancing, but it had to be for fun instead of to earn money (Shadowbeat) or for centering.
When we converted to 3rd edition, these moved over to the "Knowledge" category, whether they were Knowledge or not. Since then we've continued to allow players to buy useless skills with their Knowledge skill points.
This technique worked fine for us.
As I pointed out later in the thread, Shotguns 3 can be nearly useless to your character but still not qualify for being a knowledge skill.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| As I pointed out later in the thread, Shotguns 3 can be nearly useless to your character but still not qualify for being a knowledge skill. |
At which point we start to debate the merits of real levels versus the skills themselves.
Instead of two parallel categories ||
How about layered =
Levels 1-3 are bought with background skill points
Buying skills 4+ require active skill points
Sorry, it may be the vodka talking.
-Siege
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| As I pointed out later in the thread, Shotguns 3 can be nearly useless to your character but still not qualify for being a knowledge skill. |
Good thing we have GMs to keep an eye on things. Otherwise players might get out of hand.
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