Full Version: Fringe Skills
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Sorry, it may be the vodka talking. |
I think it is.. but I understand what youre getting at. I just dont know if theres a way to implement it that I would like.
| QUOTE (OurTeam @ Apr 26 2004, 09:23 PM) |
| When we converted to 3rd edition, these moved over to the "Knowledge" category, whether they were Knowledge or not. Since then we've continued to allow players to buy useless skills with their Knowledge skill points. This technique worked fine for us. |
Yeah, that's what I do, but I'm careful to just call them Useless Skills. Knowledge skills are all based on Int, but my "useless" ones can be based on something more logical and still cost the same as knowledge skills.
If a player in our group wants a "Useless Skill" and his character background accurately reflects that fact, and if it doesn't give him any crazy advantanges or whatever we usually just let people take whatever at that point. Mostly we try to fit things into the Knowledge Skill area as appropriate.
Of course, when the GM decides to make use of your Basketweaving 6 skill as the only way to save the party from certain death...heheh...just be careful. You may have to win a Basketweaving face-off with the main NPC antagonist for the credsticks!!!!
Of course, when the GM decides to make use of your Basketweaving 6 skill as the only way to save the party from certain death...heheh...just be careful. You may have to win a Basketweaving face-off with the main NPC antagonist for the credsticks!!!!
What my current group does is give each player half the number points of points (we use point-based chargen) he invested into "real" skills as "non-runner skill points". The non-runner skills must be approved by the GM, should not be "munchy", and the non-runner points cannot raise them above 3. This way, you can buy a few "flavor" skills at low ratings, and if you want Basket Weaving 6, you buy the rating 3 skill with your "non-runner skill points", and have to spend additional "regular" points to raise it to 6 - because at higher ratings the skill is no longer something you just picked up, it is something you had to work on. As other examples of non-runner skills, my current character (hermetic combat mage / critter hunter) has e.g. Kite-flying, Kite-building, and Old Monster Movies.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| As I pointed out later in the thread, Shotguns 3 can be nearly useless to your character but still not qualify for being a knowledge skill. |
As an active skill shotgun 3 is pretty damm usefull. As a BG skill its the ability to look at a gun and know that the guard is pointing a AS-7 at your head, and it can fire rather messy bursts too. That being said, the non-shadowrunning skills, like basket weaving, are what I feel makes a charcter. The guy with 5 combat skills at 6 and nothing else is just.... it dosent feel like a person with goals and aspirations, a living, breathing, bleeding (meta)human. I dont know about you'all, but thats a pretty damm important thing to have in a PC. After you see one chromed to the gills walking death machine, youve seen them all. Seriously though, if someone was to (hypotheticly) bring me a PC with a smattering of the normal SR skills (pistols 3, athletics 4, stealth 5, SMG 5, unarmed 6) and has a nice brace of more... normal life active skills (model aircraft 2, cooking 1, set construction 2) I would consider giving them MORE points to push the number of 'typical' skills up. Not that Id bother to tell my players this before hand or anything...
What I'm saying, really, is that if I create a soldier who's going to rely on Assault Rifles 6, but would theoretically have SMGs, Shotguns, Heavy Weapons, etc at 3 to represent dedicated cross training (even if it's highly unlikely he'll ever be manning a Humvee or a .50 cal in the game), then that Shotguns 3 basically takes a backseat and becomes about as useful as having some points in Perform. He also could be a poet and a painter on his spare time, which should also be in there, but they all end up being potentially slightly useful skills that do far more to develop him that make him powerful.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| What I'm saying, really, is that if I create a soldier who's going to rely on Assault Rifles 6, but would theoretically have SMGs, Shotguns, Heavy Weapons, etc at 3 to represent dedicated cross training (even if it's highly unlikely he'll ever be manning a Humvee or a .50 cal in the game), then that Shotguns 3 basically takes a backseat and becomes about as useful as having some points in Perform. He also could be a poet and a painter on his spare time, which should also be in there, but they all end up being potentially slightly useful skills that do far more to develop him that make him powerful. |
Its doing more then that. Taking more gun skills is adding diversity and flexibility to his combat abilitys only. God forbid that he runs out of ammo, or his gun jams. Taking a preform skill is something that can be used some other way, and even from a mechanics standpoint, they are linked to 2 different stats, and very different ones at that. But regardless, this guy is a soldier, shotgun 3 is going to be usefull, where as in his profession, acting will most likely not be.
On the main topic-- I allow players to use Knowledge skill points as "hobby" skills-- skills that aren't useful under most circumstances. I also allow them to purchase and advance them as Knowledge skills. Even if they occasionally see use in a combat situation, so long as it isn't abused, I don't have a problem with this.
For example, I had a character with "skateboarding" as a hobby skill. At one point, he decided to pull a "Back to the Future"-- grabbed a skateboard from a kid in order to catch someone. I let it work, simply because it was the first time, and it wasn't likely to happen again.
For example, I had a character with "skateboarding" as a hobby skill. At one point, he decided to pull a "Back to the Future"-- grabbed a skateboard from a kid in order to catch someone. I let it work, simply because it was the first time, and it wasn't likely to happen again.
Shouldn't skateboarding fall under reaction test, with athletics as a complimentary?
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| Shouldn't skateboarding fall under reaction test, with athletics as a complimentary? |
Yeah, but if you spend enough time doing something, eventually you could call it a skill.
-Siege
Though, I'll say this to any of my players, there will be no rigging of the skateboard. (drone skateboards in cpatain's chair maybe, but no direct rigging)
Well, what if it's a cyber-board? With computer-aided suspension, power-boost wheels for short bursts of speed...
I would have to imagine that synching with such a powerful contraption would be the only way to go.
-Siege
I would have to imagine that synching with such a powerful contraption would be the only way to go.
-Siege
You could put a datajack port on one and use it to help with the stabilization... but full rigging would be rather silly... you'd fall off.
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| You could put a datajack port on one and use it to help with the stabilization... but full rigging would be rather silly... you'd fall off. |
Well, if you can rig a bike and manage not to get smeared across the highway...
-Siege
Rigged bikes autostabilize a seated driver. It'd take a lot more effort to autostabilize a standing driver 
Maybe if you were content to have a scooter type post coming up out of it...
Maybe if you were content to have a scooter type post coming up out of it...
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| Shouldn't skateboarding fall under reaction test, with athletics as a complimentary? |
Nah, I'd say skateboarding is an Athletics test. I'd use similiar rules to the ones presented in M&M for rollerblades.
I'd probably lower the movement multipliers slightly (down to 2x walk, x5 run), but there's a lot more flexibility in not having to put on/take off rollerskates.
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Well, if you can rig a bike and manage not to get smeared across the highway... |
I don't think the forum every really came up with a good reason why bikers can fully rig a non-enclosed bike. I remember the threads.
When I GM, I rule as follows:
1) Combat bikers don't actually rig; they just use the virtual dashboard. They're a little too busy in the meat world to use a full RAS override. Can you imagine a combat biker trying to do anything with a +8 modifier?
2) You can rig an enclosed bike, or one with a reclined seat that you can be strapped securely into.
(Like that police bike in the CP2020 Chromebooks, no problem. I want one.
I always assumed that for biking riggers, some of their vehicle commands would go through their VCR and be sent back to their body, instead of to the bike's servos. Basically, that leaning their body is considered a part of the vehicle. The RAS override is still mostly in effect; they can't wiggle their toes, but they can lean.
But no, they've never really explained how this works.
But no, they've never really explained how this works.
Hah! We finally found a use for the Segway scooter thingy...
-Siege
-Siege
In my games I handle it a little differently from cannon anyway. Riggers are fully conscious and in command of their own bodies while rigging. The VCR just creates an extension, allowing them to control every aspect of the vehicle they're driving and enhances their ability to react with it as if it were part of their body. Basically the Virtual Dashboard on crack. Trying to perform any purely physical activity beyond piloting still incurs the +8 TN penalty, though, due to the distraction.
I just hate the look of a comatose guy strapped in a seat, like the cover of Rigger 3. It's boring in both imagery and when it comes time to describe things.
I just hate the look of a comatose guy strapped in a seat, like the cover of Rigger 3. It's boring in both imagery and when it comes time to describe things.
I have to agree. Allowing minor tasks (eg shifting in your seat) and movement is aesthetically far more interesting. Doesn't help with motorcycles, though; the physical movements there are far from insignificant enough to continue unimpinged. I think treating the body as an extension of the vehicle is possibly the only way to go with this, really.
Err, I'm saying that while rigging, you're still using manual controls for the most part (just like a decker is assumed to be using manual input). So while on a bike, he actually is leaning his body as appropriate. He's just "bonded" to the vehicle on a level most riders could never imagine, thus allowing him to do all the insanely amazing stuff riggers can do.
Hmm... right now rigging reaction includes quickness... I don't think it'd be too far fetched to make reaction while rigging equal to straight intelligence as a DNI equivalent version (like with decking). The fact that quickness is part of it does indicate some physical involvement.
That's not necessarily true, though. SR canon looks at quickness as both physical and mental. Hard to call, really. And, I don't know; so some degree, I like the idea of the Rigger having direct neural interface with his vehicle rather than controlling it purely physically.
I don't know about the quickness being mental thing. After all, deckers who run purely with their brain do it straight off intelligence.
Your Inteeligence is mental "quickness" and Qucikness is you pyhsical qucikness hence why physical reaction is worked from both.
DNI Rigging Iniative seems to fit. but what would be a solid riggings typical iniative then?
DNI Rigging Iniative seems to fit. but what would be a solid riggings typical iniative then?
Depends on the rigger. On balance, the average would probably stay about the same, but some people might go up or down by 2 points or so.
If it's any help, while we assume "cold rigging" uses Quickness and allows you to move your body, we do have a VCR mod (same costs as a Reflex Trigger) that allows you to rig "hot." While doing so you gain the equivalence of an Aptitude with your vehicle (-1 TN on top of any other bonuses) and only use Intelligence for your Rigging Reaction and Initiative. The downfall is that you can't do it while on a bike or on any other vehicle that relies at least somewhat on physical movement (skateboarding, wind-surfing, sailing, etc.).
But then again Vehicle Empathy works just fine while cold rigging, too. So it comes down to little more than a flavor decision for the character.
But then again Vehicle Empathy works just fine while cold rigging, too. So it comes down to little more than a flavor decision for the character.
I assume "we" is referring to a houserule.
That's a pretty cool rule, actually. I think it needs more of a disadvantage though, one that applies in more situations. Specifically, Rigger Damage (SRIII pg 145)
(this is simsense overload damage that a rigger takes when his vehicle is badly damaged, for those who don't have books handy)
Maybe add 6L damage when the vehicle takes Moderate damage, and/or +2 to the power of rigger damage.
That's a pretty cool rule, actually. I think it needs more of a disadvantage though, one that applies in more situations. Specifically, Rigger Damage (SRIII pg 145)
(this is simsense overload damage that a rigger takes when his vehicle is badly damaged, for those who don't have books handy)
Maybe add 6L damage when the vehicle takes Moderate damage, and/or +2 to the power of rigger damage.
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| Depends on the rigger. On balance, the average would probably stay about the same, but some people might go up or down by 2 points or so. |
Ok but assuming this rule were to exist, How many riggers would drop there quickness??
It'd probably be a mod to the vehicle instead of the VCR, really. My riggers tend to have a quickness in the region of 4, anyway, which is the lowest I'd take it... so not me.
The problem with having a DNI-equivalent is that the cost of the skills is based off of Reaction, so if you change what Reaction is you've got the problem of which value to base costs off of.
~J
~J
That's a good point, Kagetenshi.
Maybe this should be filed under: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Maybe we need to expand our definition of quickness to include some mental factors as well. Not the ability to quickly recognize a situation and plan an appropriate reaction that we get from intelligence, but maybe include general spatial sense and physics-related prediction ability in our definition of quickness? Then again, maybe rigging is just fine and I should go find something else to do.
Maybe this should be filed under: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Maybe we need to expand our definition of quickness to include some mental factors as well. Not the ability to quickly recognize a situation and plan an appropriate reaction that we get from intelligence, but maybe include general spatial sense and physics-related prediction ability in our definition of quickness? Then again, maybe rigging is just fine and I should go find something else to do.
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