Game Morality, the casual shuffling of mortal coils Options

[sidartha]

[Cray74]

Well...everyone's already made my answers for me.

LoneStar is down on cop killing: see Lone Star sourcebook. Killing police, or individuals who think of themselves as police despite being glorified rentacops, is bad IMG. You have to draw the line somewhere and impart the feeling that there will be consequences to actions, or you get kill-happy slaughterfest games.

Preventing characters from misbehaving in SR: also answered. There are people who generally respond to misbehavior from PCs, including police, relatives, the military, corporations, or other runners, depending on what the PCs did. (There are also times when PCs can literally get away with murder - not getting caught is a big step in that direction.)

Killing cops and consequences of actions just came up in my Saturday game, too. The runners (two of'em) decided to shoot some gangers pestering them - it was honest self-defense - but left the bodies in the parking lot (in broad daylight) while they went into a building for the run. When they came back out, surprise: LoneStar was there, drawing chalk outlines and reviewing local security camera records. They ended up successfully running after discussing the likely consequence of turning themselves in and pleading self defense (but one runner had a lengthy rap sheet from his gang days) or killing the dozen+ cops outside (Lone Star HTR team visits the decidedly underpowered runners where they're hiding, and the runners had left traceable DNA all over their motorcycle - impounded - and bullet casings).

Hmm. Leaving freshly dead bodies and your motorcycle in B-rated security areas in broad daylight. Alright, they're not exactly top-rated runners...

Since they decided to run when the numbers of police had thinned out and ran at different times, I figured I let them get away. LoneStar didn't chase hard because they were wanted for questioning, not arrest. (Security cameras showed it was pretty clearly self-defense).

[Smiley]

2 things:

"Good" and "evil" are subjective, just like "moral" and "immoral." It just depends on the player. To one person, killing security guards is wholly unthinkable and immediately punishable to an eternity of eternal damnation. To others (me being one of them), they knew the risk when they signed up. If they're in your way, they're in your way. From the guard's point of view, shadowrunners are merc scum who don't care who they hurt or what they steal. To us, we're just trying to pay the rent and maybe have a few giggles.

Also, the kind of GMs that are against killing of any kind irk me. This is a game where the players are specifically hired to do things that are against the law. That's the whole point of the game. If your PCs are specifically seeking out the elderly and schoolchildren for ritualistic scrifice, that's one thing. But what i see more often is this:

PC: A security guard? I take out my pistol...

GM: How DARE YOU? He is a living being with a family! He's just doing his job! If you shoot at him, I will ANNIHILATE YOU and your children's children's children!

PC: OK OK! Jeez... I'll go around.

GM: He shoots you. Resist 10 Serious.

[Aidley]

Re the D&D alignment thing. Most of the people I play with don't bother writinging down their alignment. They just come up with a character, give them morals, and away she goes. If you stay in character, huzzah. if you don't, you're a dick. if you rp really well and are incredibly inventive & creative in how you rp, you get bonus points.

alignment be damned. there's too much 'oh, chaotic neutral means you're as likely to jump off a bridge as walk over it.' etc rather than 'okay, most people of your class & race & background act like this.... use it as a guide.'

I'm tired. it's 5.30am. Sorry if i'm incoherent.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

[Smiley]

By no means am I saying that runners should execute anyone and anything that gets in their way. I'm saying that a black-and-white code of ethics isn't the best thing in a game where the whole purpose is to smash, grab, break, enter, loot, kidnap, neutralize, erase, sabotage, frame, etc. etc. etc.

Killing isn't always the desirable course of action, but you shouldn't be penalized for doing it when it IS necessary. Necessary from the specific player's point of view anyway. If a PC thinks a guard heard something and decides to take him out rather than risk it, groovy. If another player will only kill when his life is directly threatened, also groovy.

And now that i've diatribed all over everyone, i shall take my leave.

[blakkie]

[sidartha]

[Abstruse]

I know it was 15 posts back, but I just wanted to defend myself. Canon sources for what I said:

Lone Star sourcebook, 2nd Ed. Many times it's mentioned you kill a cop, you're a cop killer and therefore will be "shot while resisting arrest" if you ever cross another cop. This even sometimes crosses company lines (Get pulled over/questioned by a Knight Errant patrolman and he finds you have a warrent for killing a Lone Star officer, there's a good chance he'll cap you). Blow up a building, shoot random pedestrians, as far as LS/KE/etc. are concerned, you're doing your job and they're doing theirs. They just may enjoy their job a bit more when they get you ("Injured/killed while resisting arrest"). But, and this is a quote from the Lone Star book, "Kill a cop and you've by God made it PERSONAL."

Fields of Fire sourcebook, 2nd Ed. TONS of talk about professionalism among shadowrunners and why shadowrunners have a bad rep with corps while mercs have a much better one BECAUSE mercs are generally professional and runners are generally not. Also lots of talk from top-name shadow talent about how they treat unprofessionalism.

No nyeh :P I'm not just pulling stuff out of my ass and from The Sopranos ^_-

The Abstruse One

[shadd4d]

Awakenings (if we're naming books). There's a whole series of posts on how to cack the cops, and then there's the line to the effect: "don't do it." A poster, Santa Anna, IIRC, then responds with something like "If you cack a lawman, you've by God made it personal. Your life isn't worth a plugged nuyen."

So basically, if your body count includes large numbers of cops, you are probably seeing trid shows, a la America's most wanted or Lone Star's most wanted, or that show in Cowboy Bebop, in which your face looks back at you. Then you know you're screwed.

Don

[toturi]

Kill them and not let them see/catch/detect you.

[Austere Emancipa...]

The point is, you suddenly have to be a lot more careful about not letting any single piece of evidence whatsoever slip into their hands. Because you know they'll be pulling on all strings, and pulling hard, to get their hands on you.

[toturi]

[Austere Emancipa...]

Industrial espionage? Breaking & entering? Heck no. They'll do what they're supposed to in those cases. When a mate gets killed, they do overtime to fry your ass. They'll be out there on the streets, pressing on all their snitches for anything.

And I know your attitude to shadowrunning. I'm aware that your group in your games could never be caught because they're the badassest of the badasses. That doesn't work in other games.

[toturi]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[toturi]

[Austere Emancipa...]

When you put it nicely like that, we are in complete agreement. Our disagreement comes from scales, and I have no interest in debating them. Suffice it to say, IMG even the so-called Prime Runners would have to be really fucking careful if they ever started killing policemen. I'm sure they have to be that even now, but that's always one more group of thousands of people who all want you dead. And in my world, people don't want that when not killing policemen is so much easier.

[Abstruse]

Consequences for your actions. That's the check to morallity in Shadowrun. Sure, you can start plugging people at random, but there are consequences. And no matter how careful you are, you'll eventually slip up and get busted or piss off the wrong person who's more powerful than you are.

That's why you'll notice most of the runners who post in the books regularly talk about professionalism (check Shadowrun Companion, Fields of Fire, and Target: Matrix (the personallity profiles) for more info), and the ones who talk about high body counts, big explosions, etc. generally don't show up in the next book. Either they die because no one wants to deal with them so they starve/become exposed/whatever, they die because they're sent on a suicide mission, or they rot in jail.

I get all my players to read the section of the Shadowrun Companion where they show the document from the Fuchi exec that talks about hiring Shadowrunners. It's a pretty good overview of how Shadowrunners generally should act. Sure, there's exceptions, but in 99 cases out of 100, you should remain professional, act with discression, cover your tracks, and stay in the shadows.

The Abstruse One

[shadd4d]

Amen. The document in Corp. Download is also none to shabby, although the one in the SR Companion does take the cake.

Don

[Erebus]

Gel Rounds!!!! Never kill unless you absolutley have too... Then by all means break out the big guns...

On the same token... Most of the regular corp security in my games pack Gel rounds also, but when they run out of their two clips, or if one of their own has been seriously injured they'll also break out the heavy hitters.

On the otherside of the coin though, if your expecting to break into some super-secret AAA computer lab thats on the cutting edge of producing military grade Black ICE, than you better believe those aren't gel rounds being fired at you.

Corp Security is also more likely to let you live when they catch you if you aren't indescriminately gunning down their security folks. Forced Employment/Corp Imprisonment not withstanding...

I like to keep games civilized. I also tend to stress the whole cyberpunk morality play too. Corps are bad, so Shadowrunners are the little guys making nuyen off of inter-corp buzz wars, and if they can do something good for people in the long run they ussually end up doing it, even if it pays less. I like my players to be more on the scoundrel line than crossed over into the villainy zone. Additionally, even though corps are bad, most folks including most wage slaves and low level security folks are still lumped into the category of the oppressed. (Though Corp Jobs do have their perks, propoganda does tend to have a negative effect on free-will.)

[Talia Invierno]

The "never kill unless you have to" covers most of the spectrum on this thread. The major question might be exactly what constitutes "have-to" kills.

Most of us, I think, would agree on non-involved bystanders not being targeted, as "unnecessary" killing.

Beyond that? Maybe it might depend on the individual tone of the game being run. How much does life mean, on the streets or in the boardroom? How common is casual murder, on the streets or behind closed doors? How dystopian, how gritty, how hopeful do you choose to make your individual campaign? (Oddly enough, the less value placed on life generally, the less specific consequence there is likely to be of cop-killing. It is only where life is reasonably valued that that degree of fraternity can exist.)

To a large extent, what is felt to be "necessary" against security and such might well depend on what kind of hammer you choose to be carrying. In many (not all) cases, it is just as easy to render a target unconscious as it is to kill them. There is a different chance for identification, obviously - and that might be relevant enough to individual characters (or campaigns) to shift the choice to the lethal one.

That aside, however, unconsciousness tends to produce much the same effective in-run results as death, and you won't have the rep which might make your next security opposition fight out of the sheer desperation which comes from knowing that to fight is not only their single best option or theirr job, but also their only chance to survive.

Consequences. Got to love them :rotate:

[mfb]

heh, i like gel rounds, especially against hardened military armor. "but mfb," you say, "you're crazy, gel rounds can't punch through hardened armor!" yes, but they smear real nice, and when you combine them with my penchant for shooting people in the face...

[Kagetenshi]

*Applause*

~J

[Arethusa]

I'd really like to point out that gel rounds should be staged to physical on headshots.