Hacking Cyberware, Wargarbbbbbbl RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE Options

[hermit]

Fun stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTOODPf-iuc

Nice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shadow Knight]

I believe that the answer is they they do not suddenly need the Matrix. The canon theme is that (we have always been at war with EastAsia) the non-matrix bonus operation is how things have always operated.

As far as an in-universe explanation.

Here's the short of it: System Architecture is not a simple topic.

There are numerous, numerous, numerous areas where complexity can creep into the design and draw out seemingly "simple" processes. While it is true that the "speed" of a transmission of signals across a physical medium is very likely to exceed the "speed" of that signal through the wireless system of Matrix 3.0, that's really only one of many considerations that must be made.

Most importantly is the mechanisms that allow the Information in question to be torn down to something that may be communicated by physical properties of our universe, and then built back up into something intelligible, reliable, and trustworthy on the distant end. The mechanisms that will, among other things, differentiate between thinking "Open!" from thinking "Fish!" and creating the expected result. Or, for that matter, the algorithms necessary to distinguish background noise, from foreground signal.

(And algorithms that prevent things like the following: "Don't think "Open"... Don't think "Open"... Don't think... Doh!")

Elements that can complicate this process include, but are not limited to, things like error checking, authentication, blah, blah, etc, etc. Additionally, it is not impossible (or sometimes even unlikely) that some implementations will favor the raw processing power of distributed systems over the limited processing power of local systems.

The fundamental mistake is assuming that transmission speed of data is the total, end-all-be-all solution to this discussion.

It is not.

tldr; Retcon + Theorically Possible w/ today's existing knowledge of computing + Underlying Implementations that favor distributed Computing.

Fin.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Explain to me why cyberware would ever need access to the matrix to function? It didn't need it prewireless. I cannot come up with any reason why a cyber arm or cyber eyes or wired reflexes need net access. I can't think of any reason anyone would design them to need it. We have cyber limbs today that don't need the net to work. They even contain small computers to do their functions. Seeing as how computers are getting smaller and more powerful i don't see processing power as being the issue.

Wired_SR_AEGIS give me one plausible reason why cyber eyes need an always on matrix access. Give me one good reason why anyone in teir right mind would design it that way given that matrix access is not ubiquitous even in 2073

[Aaron]

Explain to me why cyberware would ever need access to the matrix to function? It didn't need it prewireless. I cannot come up with any reason why a cyber arm or cyber eyes or wired reflexes need net access. I can't think of any reason anyone would design them to need it. We have cyber limbs today that don't need the net to work. They even contain small computers to do their functions. Seeing as how computers are getting smaller and more powerful i don't see processing power as being the issue.

Wired_SR_AEGIS give me one plausible reason why cyber eyes need an always on matrix access. Give me one good reason why anyone in teir right mind would design it that way given that matrix access is not ubiquitous even in 2073

Your cyberware doesn't need access to the Matrix to function. Some cyberware systems function better when they are, though.

And yes, the underlying game system was changed so that some cyberware systems have a different effect by default. That happens sometimes when you change editions. Kind of like when BattleTech went to it's fourth edition: Hills that offered partial cover didn't suddenly shrink to a third their size, the rule merely went from +3/punch location to +1/ignore leg hits. Or damage in Torg 2.0. Or power dice in Descent.

[Epicedion]

Wired_SR_AEGIS give me one plausible reason why cyber eyes need an always on matrix access. Give me one good reason why anyone in teir right mind would design it that way given that matrix access is not ubiquitous even in 2073

Here's the deal.

The best example of the "wireless bonus" making sense is Wired Reflexes + Reaction Enhancers. These are typically systems that don't play well together, and in their safe mode just don't. Combined with the limit of +4 Attribute from Cyberware, even considering combining them is kind of a fool's venture. But then the wireless bonus kicks in and not only makes them play together, but makes them ignore the +4 Attribute limit -- meaning Wired Reflexes 3 and Reaction Enhancers 3 gets you a net +6 Reaction and +3d6 Initiative.

To explain this, you could say that the systems don't work together unless they can maintain a wireless track of your entire body, or perhaps they need the extra processing power generated by forming their own little cloud network so each disparate part can contribute to the larger whole, and that network makes it vulnerable to threats through the Matrix (very locally) so you connect it through your commlink for the added safety.

The biggest offender is the Smartlink (and subsequently the Laser Sight), which I think got a little bit of a bum treatment. +2 Accuracy offline, +2 Accuracy +2 dice online, which is contrary to the "smartlink makes it easier for the less trained person to shoot" concept of classic Shadowrun. If I were designing it, I'd either flip them, or more likely (and potentially house ruled) such that the offline version gives +2 Accuracy +2 dice, and the online version gives +2 Accuracy +4 dice.

Then there are the lesser offenders: devices that you can either manually actuate (ie, deploy a tripod, extend a baton, close the chemical seals, etc) by either manipulating the device or flipping a switch somewhere, or actuate by sending a Matrix command via your DNI du jour. I'm thinking of this by the following: these devices aren't wired to you in any way, so the choice really is to do it with your hands or do it with a wireless signal via datajack/trodes->commlink->device. Let's face it, you're not physically wiring your extendable baton to your commlink, that's just daft. Meanwhile hacking someone's baton or tripod is equally daft, as that's a lot of work to go through to cause a fairly minor annoyance.

Then there's the Matrix sniffing devices: cybereyes, cyberears. Open these up to the Matrix and suddenly there's a lot of usable data to process -- maybe you can see the outline of someone's PAN or get an interpretive reading of changes in Matrix interference, or hear the disturbance of something physically moving through the local wireless signals and causing tiny aberrations in the signal. Very high-techy stuff.

Then there's the weird bits: gear that gives you a strange +dice bonus while online, like hydraulic jacks. I figure this as the equivalent of the old "AR Bonus" from SR4, where doing a task with the assistance of an AR interface grants you a bonus. Just this go around the device needs to access your AR feed, which is through your commlink.

[Shadow Knight]

Here's the deal.

The best example of the "wireless bonus" making sense is Wired Reflexes + Reaction Enhancers. These are typically systems that don't play well together, and in their safe mode just don't. Combined with the limit of +4 Attribute from Cyberware, even considering combining them is kind of a fool's venture. But then the wireless bonus kicks in and not only makes them play together, but makes them ignore the +4 Attribute limit -- meaning Wired Reflexes 3 and Reaction Enhancers 3 gets you a net +6 Reaction and +3d6 Initiative.

To explain this, you could say that the systems don't work together unless they can maintain a wireless track of your entire body, or perhaps they need the extra processing power generated by forming their own little cloud network so each disparate part can contribute to the larger whole, and that network makes it vulnerable to threats through the Matrix (very locally) so you connect it through your commlink for the added safety.

The biggest offender is the Smartlink (and subsequently the Laser Sight), which I think got a little bit of a bum treatment. +2 Accuracy offline, +2 Accuracy +2 dice online, which is contrary to the "smartlink makes it easier for the less trained person to shoot" concept of classic Shadowrun. If I were designing it, I'd either flip them, or more likely (and potentially house ruled) such that the offline version gives +2 Accuracy +2 dice, and the online version gives +2 Accuracy +4 dice.

Then there are the lesser offenders: devices that you can either manually actuate (ie, deploy a tripod, extend a baton, close the chemical seals, etc) by either manipulating the device or flipping a switch somewhere, or actuate by sending a Matrix command via your DNI du jour. I'm thinking of this by the following: these devices aren't wired to you in any way, so the choice really is to do it with your hands or do it with a wireless signal via datajack/trodes->commlink->device. Let's face it, you're not physically wiring your extendable baton to your commlink, that's just daft. Meanwhile hacking someone's baton or tripod is equally daft, as that's a lot of work to go through to cause a fairly minor annoyance.

Then there's the Matrix sniffing devices: cybereyes, cyberears. Open these up to the Matrix and suddenly there's a lot of usable data to process -- maybe you can see the outline of someone's PAN or get an interpretive reading of changes in Matrix interference, or hear the disturbance of something physically moving through the local wireless signals and causing tiny aberrations in the signal. Very high-techy stuff.

Then there's the weird bits: gear that gives you a strange +dice bonus while online, like hydraulic jacks. I figure this as the equivalent of the old "AR Bonus" from SR4, where doing a task with the assistance of an AR interface grants you a bonus. Just this go around the device needs to access your AR feed, which is through your commlink.

Ummm they didn't have a problem working together in the 2050s when there was no wireless. explain that please. Explain how going to a remote server and back is going to be faster than traveling down the wire inside the body? Hint there is ABSOLUTELY no way it would be faster. Radio while traveling at the speed of light is still going to take longer than the slower connection of a couple of feet at most.

And sorry the cybereyes are not going to be better with matrix access. They are basically the same as they were before they supposedly had matrix access. And Why would you have them connecting via them selves instead of through your datajack and comlink? The way they have it set up is like pluging all your computers into the internet directly instead of going through a home router. and we all know how stupid it is to plug your computer directly into the internet.

[RHat]

Explain how going to a remote server and back is going to be faster than traveling down the wire inside the body?

I'm afraid you do not understand. Consider the following elements of the distributed computing argument:

1) Unlike modern cloud computing, there is no remote server. The distributed computing here takes advantage of the mesh structure of the Matrix as introduced in SR4 and the new protocols introduced (to which everything and everyone was converted to) after events seen in Storm Front to use available resources on nearby devices, such as everything within a kilometre.

2) The whole idea has absolutely nothing, whatsoever, to do with transmission speeds - except insofar as it is assumed to be fast enough not to be a bottleneck, which is justified by the Matrix presented in SR4.

And as I understand it, the WR/RE stacking thing has gone back and forth through the editions.

[Epicedion]

Ummm they didn't have a problem working together in the 2050s when there was no wireless. explain that please. Explain how going to a remote server and back is going to be faster than traveling down the wire inside the body? Hint there is ABSOLUTELY no way it would be faster. Radio while traveling at the speed of light is still going to take longer than the slower connection of a couple of feet at most.

And sorry the cybereyes are not going to be better with matrix access. They are basically the same as they were before they supposedly had matrix access. And Why would you have them connecting via them selves instead of through your datajack and comlink? The way they have it set up is like pluging all your computers into the internet directly instead of going through a home router. and we all know how stupid it is to plug your computer directly into the internet.

You obviously didn't read a single word.

[hermit]

The biggest offender is the Smartlink (and subsequently the Laser Sight), which I think got a little bit of a bum treatment. +2 Accuracy offline, +2 Accuracy +2 dice online, which is contrary to the "smartlink makes it easier for the less trained person to shoot" concept of classic Shadowrun. If I were designing it, I'd either flip them, or more likely (and potentially house ruled) such that the offline version gives +2 Accuracy +2 dice, and the online version gives +2 Accuracy +4 dice.

Sounds workable, if a little powerful. Laser Sight would be +1Acc/+1d6, +1Acc/+2d6 then?

The best example of the "wireless bonus" making sense is Wired Reflexes + Reaction Enhancers. These are typically systems that don't play well together, and in their safe mode just don't.

By legacy, they played very well together, which is why so many people have a problem with this.

[Sendaz]

Which is why hence forth they shall be referred to as Wireless Reflexes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[hermit]

Which is why hence forth they shall be referred to as Wireless Reflexes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That really hurts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tashiro]

Explain to me why cyberware would ever need access to the matrix to function? It didn't need it prewireless. I cannot come up with any reason why a cyber arm or cyber eyes or wired reflexes need net access.

Because it may need a software patch. Or diagnostics. Or because the corporation which made the cyberware wants to be kept informed on how well it's working. Or the software for specific aspects of the cyberware is kept in corporate hands, and they don't release it to the public - meaning that to get it to work, it needs a connection. Or it can run on a lower (non-wireless) setting, then run on an augmented (requires more software, which is not installed) setting.

There's a half-dozen for you.

[Draco18s]

Because it may need a software patch. Or diagnostics. Or because the corporation which made the cyberware wants to be kept informed on how well it's working.

None of those are reasons why functionality or ease of use deteriorates when there's a lack of a connection.

Or it can run on a lower (non-wireless) setting, then run on an augmented (requires more software, which is not installed) setting.

Software does not make a baton extend faster. If it does, WTF is that software doing on the cloud? And why does the baton still extend (but slower) when I lack cloud access?

[binarywraith]

I'm afraid you do not understand. Consider the following elements of the distributed computing argument:

1) Unlike modern cloud computing, there is no remote server. The distributed computing here takes advantage of the mesh structure of the Matrix as introduced in SR4 and the new protocols introduced (to which everything and everyone was converted to) after events seen in Storm Front to use available resources on nearby devices, such as everything within a kilometre.

2) The whole idea has absolutely nothing, whatsoever, to do with transmission speeds - except insofar as it is assumed to be fast enough not to be a bottleneck, which is justified by the Matrix presented in SR4.

And as I understand it, the WR/RE stacking thing has gone back and forth through the editions.

You're still not getting it, but that's no surprise since you've been adamantly refusing to understand this concept for a couple weeks now across several threads. Unless SR5 computing is literally working at faster than light speeds, both in transmission and processing, it doesn't matter. It still takes time to distribute the work to every device in the area, do the work, get it back, and correlate all the responses.

This should in no way be faster than sending a signal down an embedded wire.

[Draco18s]

This should in no way be faster than sending a signal down an embedded wire.

Unless the wire runs on STL speeds and wireless communication runs on FTL.

At which point, wait, aren't the computers themselves made of STL wires? And if they're not, why aren't the embedded wires made out of the FTL stuff?

[Tashiro]

None of those are reasons why functionality or ease of use deteriorates when there's a lack of a connection.

Software does not make a baton extend faster. If it does, WTF is that software doing on the cloud? And why does the baton still extend (but slower) when I lack cloud access?

Manual control: You have to unlock the safety (prevent it from extending into your groin when you don't want it to), then physical trigger.

Wireless control: AR trigger, run by thought or by glancing at the proper HUD trigger and intoning a single word. This requires software. The software's not in the baton. Ergo, needs to be connected.

[Draco18s]

Wireless control: AR trigger, run by thought or by glancing at the proper HUD trigger and intoning a single word. This requires software. The software's not in the baton. Ergo, needs to be connected.

That software should be on my comlink, not the matrix.
Which means I should be able to have the wireless connectivity bonus without having to have internet access on my comlink. Getting the bonus without becoming more vulnerable to hackers (because 3m range!)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Wired_SR_AEGIS give me one plausible reason why cyber eyes need an always on matrix access. Give me one good reason why anyone in teir right mind would design it that way given that matrix access is not ubiquitous even in 2073

Because it does not need the Matrix, I will not give you a reason why it would need the Matrix. It does not need the Matrix. It may or may not operate on the Matrix. When it does so, there are benefits.

You're still not getting it, but that's no surprise since you've been adamantly refusing to understand this concept for a couple weeks now across several threads. Unless SR5 computing is literally working at faster than light speeds, both in transmission and processing, it doesn't matter. It still takes time to distribute the work to every device in the area, do the work, get it back, and correlate all the responses.

This should in no way be faster than sending a signal down an embedded wire.

This seems correct intuitively, but it is not.

The hang up for many people, I think, is because the modern implementations that we're familiar with aren't implemented in a way that emphasizes distributed computing. So it's difficult to, aside from 'Lightspeed/Magic', put together reasons why this would make sense. We've certainly never seen it in real life. Perhaps with the exception of some research labs. Or academia. I get that. And I empathize.

Short of providing a math lesson, or blowing off the dust of old textbooks, I'm not sure how I can convince you except to say: When algorithms are written with sufficient order of magnitudes, even very tiny increases of 'n' will wreak havoc.

There exists a complexity, however, where both distributed computing solutions and localized computing solutions may finish within seconds of each other. The difference being that a local solution may take a full '3' seconds, while a distributed solution may take (even after considering latency) only a fraction of that. Such a target time for completion is still 'usable' from an end user perspective -- It's just one is near instantaneous in it's completion, and the other finishes inside a 'reasonable time frame'.

It is not impossible to imagine that the Matrix in SR 5 exists on top of such framework.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Draco18s]

There exists a complexity, however, where both distributed computing solutions and localized computing solutions may finish within seconds of each other.

"Extend Baton" is not of sufficient complexity.

And I'm not even going to point out that exploding ammunition reports back to the person who fired it the health status of the person it hit.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

"Extend Baton" is not of sufficient complexity.

And I'm not even going to point out that exploding ammunition reports back to the person who fired it the health status of the person it hit.

Funnily enough, it could be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

...it could also "not be", as well, mind you. There's no law that really defines it one way or another. It's all up to the underlying implementation to determine what is, and is not, "sufficient complexity".

So: You're wrong.

...except you also may be right. It really just depends. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Does that make you feel better, worse, or indifferent about your understanding of complexity?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Draco18s]

Funnily enough, it could be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

...it could also "not be", as well, mind you. There's no law that really defines it one way or another. It's all up to the underlying implementation to determine what is, and is not, "sufficient complexity".

So: You're wrong.

...except you also may be right. It really just depends. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Does that make you feel better, worse, or indifferent about your understanding of complexity?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

And SR5 just went into quantum superposition.

Awesome.

/quit: logic, this topic has none

[Shadow Knight]

Because it does not need the Matrix, I will not give you a reason why it would need the Matrix. It does not need the Matrix. It may or may not operate on the Matrix. When it does so, there are benefits.



This seems correct intuitively, but it is not.

The hang up for many people, I think, is because the modern implementations that we're familiar with aren't implemented in a way that emphasizes distributed computing. So it's difficult to, aside from 'Lightspeed/Magic', put together reasons why this would make sense. We've certainly never seen it in real life. Perhaps with the exception of some research labs. Or academia. I get that. And I empathize.

Short of providing a math lesson, or blowing off the dust of old textbooks, I'm not sure how I can convince you except to say: When algorithms are written with sufficient order of magnitudes, even very tiny increases of 'n' will wreak havoc.

There exists a complexity, however, where both distributed computing solutions and localized computing solutions may finish within seconds of each other. The difference being that a local solution may take a full '3' seconds, while a distributed solution may take (even after considering latency) only a fraction of that. Such a target time for completion is still 'usable' from an end user perspective -- It's just one is near instantaneous in it's completion, and the other finishes inside a 'reasonable time frame'.

It is not impossible to imagine that the Matrix in SR 5 exists on top of such framework.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

The problem is that for example wired reflexes and reaction enhancers did not need a matrix connection in 2050 because there was no wireless to connect to. So why would they need it 26 years later when there is a wireless? And why are the computers slower in 2076 than they were in 2050? As if the internal computers were able to handle things in 2050 they should be able to handle things better in 2076 and thus not need distributed computing. Your reasoning falls flat because all of this stuff worked when there was no wireless and now does not. This is stuff you would not get a benefit from distributed computing. Why does a baton need distributed computing to close literally 2 circuits? one is the safety the other is the extension solenoid. Why does it need software at all? a skinlink connection actuating 2 circuits does not need computing power. You can claim distributed computing all day long. It does not change the fact that all of this stuff worked fine with out distributed computing. None of the benefits are new ideas and none of the benefits are things that would benefit from distributed computing.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

And SR5 just went into quantum superposition.

Awesome.

/quit: logic, this topic has none

I'm not sure I follow you.

We could sit down, you and me, best buds forever, and write an algorithm that wouldn't get around to extending your baton until after the sun had long since cooled, and the galaxy had long since gone silent from the incessant clattering of humans. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If we can write arbitrarily complex algorithms today, what prevents us from doing so in 2070? Did we, like, lose our math technology as a result of OP Awakened Characters returning us all to nature, or something?

The problem is that for example wired reflexes and reaction enhancers did not need a matrix connection in 2050 because there was no wireless to connect to. So why would they need it 26 years later when there is a wireless? And why are the computers slower in 2076 than they were in 2050? As if the internal computers were able to handle things in 2050 they should be able to handle things better in 2076 and thus not need distributed computing. Your reasoning falls flat because all of this stuff worked when there was no wireless and now does not. This is stuff you would not get a benefit from distributed computing. Why does a baton need distributed computing to close literally 2 circuits? one is the safety the other is the extension solenoid. Why does it need software at all? a skinlink connection actuating 2 circuits does not need computing power. You can claim distributed computing all day long. It does not change the fact that all of this stuff worked fine with out distributed computing. None of the benefits are new ideas and none of the benefits are things that would benefit from distributed computing.

Before I answer that, do you understand what a Retcon is?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tashiro]

That software should be on my comlink, not the matrix.
Which means I should be able to have the wireless connectivity bonus without having to have internet access on my comlink. Getting the bonus without becoming more vulnerable to hackers (because 3m range!)

You'd think, but the corporations have the right to keep any software they want private and controlled. And this way, if anything you have needs a patch, it is immediately patched, without you having to be online to download it, or having the right to refuse it. And this way, they can find out other information - where the most sales are, how often something's activated, where it's activated, etc.

Again: The original plan for the XBox One is a good parallel, only the majority of people in the Shadowrun'verse are probably more than happy with this (or just apathetic). Shadowrunners might complain, but they're not the majority market, and since they're SINless, they don't even get a say in the matter.

Could you possibly hack your stuff and make software to run it on your commlink? Sure. Would it be as good as corp code? Probably not. Can you get the corp code and run it on your commlink? Maybe, but that's a very dangerous, very pricey operation. And I'm sure this could be covered in the 'Unwired'-esque sourcebook when it comes out.

[Draco18s]

If we can write arbitrarily complex algorithms today, what prevents us from doing so in 2070? Did we, like, lose our math technology as a result of OP Awakened Characters returning us all to nature, or something?

Writing arbitrarily complex algorithms to perform simple tasks is trivial.*

You're trying to tell me that this arbitrarily complex algorithm is still the most efficient.

*As a theoretical design challenge, I tried to build the slowest "clock" in Minecraft possible, using only a single chunk (16x16 grid, using only vanilla items). I found a 1-wide tilable flip-flop that could in theory fit 15 inside the 16x16 area (and still wired up in sequence). It was 5 blocks tall, allowing for 25 layers of them from bedrock to sky, making a massive binary counter. Remove a small area for a daylight sensor (flips state once every 10 minutes) and input that to the binary counter chain. The other end of the counter was then your clock.

The period delay on this clock was 7.69 * 10^113 minutes.
Or approximately 100,000,000 googol years. Essentially orders of magnitude greater than the lifespan of the universe.

[DWC]

Because it may need a software patch. Or diagnostics. Or because the corporation which made the cyberware wants to be kept informed on how well it's working. Or the software for specific aspects of the cyberware is kept in corporate hands, and they don't release it to the public - meaning that to get it to work, it needs a connection. Or it can run on a lower (non-wireless) setting, then run on an augmented (requires more software, which is not installed) setting.

There's a half-dozen for you.

If it's impossible to hack the firmware in cyberware to stop it from doing all this, why can deckers write software that subverts anything else in the Matrix?