Hacking Cyberware, Wargarbbbbbbl RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE Options

[binarywraith]

RetconretconretconretconretconRetconRetcon...

...retconRetconRetcon...

...Retcon.



RetconretconRetcon.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

You keep saying this, but it still doesn't mean it's good game design or worth respecting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

A retcon still has to be internally consistent to be worthwhile, and given that the answer to jammers and wireless bonuses seems to be officially 'uh, no, those don't stop that connection'...

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

You keep saying this, but it still doesn't mean it's good game design or worth respecting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Entirely secondary.

This discussion should be about game design or game design respect, not "why something in game works the way it does" if you want to bring those objections to the table.

A retcon still has to be internally consistent to be worthwhile, and given that the answer to jammers and wireless bonuses seems to be officially 'uh, no, those don't stop that connection'...

I believe that you are incorrect. Jammers may stop a connection at a certain rating, correct? It's just that the underlying mechanics have been abstracted so that you don't need to be an Electrical Engineer to calculate what to do on your turn.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[binarywraith]

Entirely secondary.

This discussion should be about game design or game design respect, not "why something in game works the way it does" if you want to bring those objections to the table.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

The whole discussion is hinging on the plausibility of the new systems being retconned into the game world. The fact that the new systems aren't internally consistent with the rest of the established setting, and neither the new book nor the writers themselves can come up with a consistent explanation for how they work means that they are fundamentally flawed.

That's where the whole objection comes from.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

The whole discussion is hinging on the plausibility of the new systems being retconned into the game world. The fact that the new systems aren't internally consistent with the rest of the established setting, and neither the new book nor the writers themselves can come up with a consistent explanation for how they work means that they are fundamentally flawed.

That's where the whole objection comes from.

I suppose that you and I disagree, then. I haven't seen anything that is internally inconsistent with the established setting.

I have seen fringe cases where people have raised objections to how the core system operates inside of the framework of that fringe case, but by and large the system appears fundamentally sound.

Edit: And I mean that both from a thematic, as well as mechanical, exploration of the rules. Seeing the underlying effect of limits on dice pools makes my toes tingle with delight.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Moirdryd]

For those saying "Well it's a Retcon". It isn't. Not really. Because the Sixth World Lore they are using is using the SR Time from all previous editions. Thus from 2050-206x there was no Wireless Matrix. Until then things like WR and RE worked fine together and a Smartlink turned a bad shot into a moderate one.

The Microsoft, Sony thing is a great example of how the Megacorps would react with the Cyberware gig. Ares implements their new Wireless "bonus" Cyberware and Shiawase immediately grabs 50% of their market share by offering the latest is Stand Alone Cyberware.

Here's how some of my house ruling/setting revision is looking.

For Action reductions most Online will be replaced with DNI requiring some form of Cyber plug in (the ubiquitous DataJack) or it already being internally wired (most Cyberware). The OnLine bonus for these pieces of ware will come in the form of an Analysis and Response Agent "cloud" allowing you to activate or deactivate (x) pieces of OnLine gear in the same Free (or as a Simple) action. This will have the possibility of drawbacks to it as well as being open to a hacking attack.

Other Online bonuses are likely to being swapped over for +Dice in StandAlone Mode and +Limit with Online active. So you use it only when you're likely to be needing to beat the limit buffers (and don't want to use Edge for every roll).

Some fluff...
Each corp is obviously running its own Grid on the sly (extraterritoriality) and Corp Sec leap ahead of the game because they can run their Cyberware with full Online extra functionality with little worry, unless of course one of those new Deckers gets into the Corp Grid and bypass the security there, then he can hack their gear! Shadowrunners maintain functionality by running Stand Alone, the foolhardy may run on the Grid to up their performance but that does make them vulnerable. Very good teams with a decker running overwatch may take the risk of patching into the Corp's private grid for those same bonuses, of course you'd better have a VERY solid firewall etc if you're doing THAT.

Joe average Cyberware is usually grid connected most of the time. Providing all the fancy bonuses that they never use, up to the moment "patches" for their OS and all manner of handy AR interfaces along with a marketing departments dream of return information. Function not unlike a whole bunch of modern social networking facilities, phones and tablets ect. Obviously Shadowrunners have that stuff purged pretty early on.

[Draco18s]

Well, no, I don't think invoking Heisenburg is the correct answer here. The underlying Physics are not quantum, but classical. And the solution is a combination of very high definition sensors, and massive processing.

The individual placement, composition, size and shape of each grain of gunpowder is important in determining the vectors of the explosion. It's not uniform.

Tapping the bullet before firing it will cause those grains to shift slightly, which will alter the outcome.

So unless you have sensors inside the bullet recalculating the data on the propellent then no.

You don't have enough data.

[Cochise]

What does upgrading the matrix have to do with a baton?

From the perspective of said person: Because of "REASONS". Please, don't ask for the precise nature of these "REASONS" or how they can be labeled as being "logical", because that's beyond my capabilities ... and most likely beyond the referenced person's capabilities as well.

[cndblank]

I think suspense of disbelief is a perfectly valid topic of discussion in this thread.
You need a system that is fun to play and run, has game balance, but doesn't blow out the group's suspense of disbelief.
And if the genre has been around long enough then it just becomes part of the genre (like a little domino mask keeping the ID of a superhero secret).
Shadowrun is its own genre with 24 years of background and history explaining how things work.

Retconning some thing that is a serious game balance issue is perfectly valid especially if there has been a Matrix crash or a major new upgrade to explain the change.

But there are a few Matrix Bonuses that just seem to be a bad choices.
Retconning major changes to the point where yesterday you could do this with your gear and today you can't do this without connecting to the Matrix is heavy handed for no good reason and really defies the suspense of disbelief.

Some idea's just don't work and they really just need to errata in that DNI links can active gear as a free action and exploding bullets will not report back on the targets' health.

[Draco18s]

Retconning some thing that is a serious game balance issue is perfectly valid especially if there has been a Matrix crash or a major new upgrade to explain the change.

But retconning making major changes to how ware and gear works in the Shadowrun genre where yesterday you could do this and today you can't do this without connecting to the Matrix is heavy handed for no good reason that I can see and really defies my suspense of disbelief.

As I've said before, I've got no issue with wanting to have wireless bonuses.

I've got no issue with there needing to be a retcon to make it work.

What I do have an issue with is the bonuses they came up with.

[Epicedion]

I think suspense of disbelief is a perfectly valid topic of discussion in this thread.
You need a system that is fun to play and run, has game balance, but doesn't blow out the group's suspense of disbelief.
And if the genre has been around long enough then it just becomes part of the genre (like a little domino mask keeping the ID of a superhero secret).
Shadowrun is its own genre with 24 years of background and history explaining how things work.

Retconning some thing that is a serious game balance issue is perfectly valid especially if there has been a Matrix crash or a major new upgrade to explain the change.

But retconning making major changes to how ware and gear works in the Shadowrun genre where yesterday you could do this and today you can't do this without connecting to the Matrix is heavy handed for no good reason that I can see and really defies my suspense of disbelief.

Some idea's just don't work and they really just need to errata in that DNI links can active gear as a free action and exploding bullets will not report back on the targets' health.

Even if the previous edition futzed up the lore and supporting mechanics?

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

The individual placement, composition, size and shape of each grain of gunpowder is important in determining the vectors of the explosion. It's not uniform.

Tapping the bullet before firing it will cause those grains to shift slightly, which will alter the outcome.

So unless you have sensors inside the bullet recalculating the data on the propellent then no.

You don't have enough data.

Hrm. That's true, enough. It would require loads and loads of data. I suppose the question is really: How much data it takes to make an accurate enough model. Right? That's true of real life, when I need to my computer to perform operations on functions of continuous variables, but my poor little computer can't, so I instead opt for polynomial approximations of what I'm looking for, right?

And that's good enough to get to the moon and back?

So, is the grain of gunpowder germane to the question of abstract wound cavities? If so, to what degree? And at what point is a approximation good enough? Eventually when your results may be sufficiently abstract, and your library is sufficiently large, the complexities of these questions may become less important.

Let me follow through with that logic, however, and ask: Do you have a problem with an Ares Predator having a static damage code assigned to it? What is it, like... 6 or 7 or something? I'm not aware of any randomization to that damage code that occurs as a result of grains of propellant tumbling around. Is this inadequately realistic for you?

It seems to indicate that wound cavities in SR are both predictive and deterministic, right? Is this a shortcoming of the system?

From the perspective of said person: Because of "REASONS". Please, don't ask for the precise nature of these "REASONS" or how they can be labeled as being "logical", because that's beyond my capabilities ... and most likely beyond the referenced person's capabilities as well.

Hahahaha. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Draco18s]

Let me follow through with that logic, however, and ask: Do you have a problem with an Ares Predator having a static damage code assigned to it? What is it, like... 6 or 7 or something? I'm not aware of any randomization to that damage code that occurs as a result of grains of propellant tumbling around. Is this inadequately realistic for you?

There's abstraction and then there's bullshit.

Flat damage codes is abstraction,* informing the user of the target's health after firing the gun is bullshit.

It's bullshit because there's no adequate way to accurately model the result in such a way that the outcome can be considered "deterministic" in-universe. Because of that data-gap it is not acceptable (breaks suspension of disbelief) to abstract it away.

*Getting hit with a bullet hurts. Hurting is damage. Guns do damage. Damage is numbers. Ergo guns do numbers.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

There's abstraction and then there's bullshit.

Flat damage codes is abstraction,* informing the user of the target's health after firing the gun is bullshit.

It's bullshit because there's no adequate way to accurately model the result in such a way that the outcome can be considered "deterministic" in-universe. Because of that data-gap it is not acceptable (breaks suspension of disbelief) to abstract it away.

*Getting hit with a bullet hurts. Hurting is damage. Guns do damage. Damage is numbers. Ergo guns do numbers.

Hold up. Players also have hit boxes. This is an abstraction. It, in no way, accounts for the migration of individual grains of sand throughout the casings that eventually propel the projectile that will remove those hit boxes. Is this a short coming of the system?

I don't think it is.

Doesn't this abstraction translate, in some way, into real and tangible game terms? For instance, isn't there some arbitrary point where a given target, with a given composition, will take 3 damage boxes from a given attack? And doesn't that translate, in some way, into actual In-Character Knowledge through case studies? If so, they why is it impossible for such approximation and abstraction to exist in game as well as out?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Draco18s]

If that abstraction is possible, why isn't it done at the gun-level rather than the bullet-level?

[Sendaz]

This is where magic has it easier.

If the spells change or things gets a bit loopy, we just blame it on the changing mana levels and feel a little better because well... things happen.

You think suddenly discovering your gun has a wifi link (and seems to have had it all along) made for a bad day? how about being Human today, and a 3 sizes bigger Ork tomorrow with halitosis from heck? Again.. blame the mana.

Able to ground spells through an astral body or item into the physical in 2050 but not in late 2060's, blame the mana. Or all mages suddenly having a sense of fair play and voluntarily avoiding that because you know we are all just those kind of guys. *looks around for the halo and beam of light* meh, was worth a shot.....

No WizFi yet, though we are working on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Draco18s]

No WizFi yet, though we are working on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Read this book series. No seriously.
(I highly recommend the audio books, the reader does a fantastic job. Quaaaarrk.)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

If that abstraction is possible, why isn't it done at the gun-level rather than the bullet-level?

Mmmmm. ...Good question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Let's see...

...Maybe part of it is done at the gun level, but completion of the model with any degree of reliability requires feedback from the bullet itself. Such as, for instance, data that may be extrapolated from it's ballistics that are used for confirmation that it struck the intended target, and how it struck the intended target?

So, the gap between 'mostly useful model' and 'actually useful model' is completed by including the bullet. Which is the difference between guessing 'Hey, shooting this guy with this Ares Predator should do some abstract measurement of damage' and 'Hey, shooting this guy with this Ares Predator DID do this abstract measurement of damage,

Enh? Enh?

I mean, it's a little of a stretch, but it's not COMPLETE nonsense, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Sendaz]

Read this book series. No seriously.
(I highly recommend the audio books, the reader does a fantastic job. Quaaaarrk.)

I remember the author from way back, but never got into it. May have a look.

For ideas of what a hacker god could do Webmage is interesting though obviously well off any scale of game play you could reasonably run, but when you can read about Hacking your way INTO the underworld (Greek Pantheon style, not the mob) you know its gonna be good.

And actually his sidekick ally/laptop would make for an interesting deck indeed.

[Draco18s]

I remember the author from way back, but never got into it. May have a look.

He's done a few series. I found that series by accident when looking for Thusrday Next novels. I was pleasantly surprised.

[Tzeentch]

Mmmmm. ...Good question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Let's see...

...Maybe part of it is done at the gun level, but completion of the model with any degree of reliability requires feedback from the bullet itself. Such as, for instance, data that may be extrapolated from it's ballistics that are used for confirmation that it struck the intended target, and how it struck the intended target?

-- Shadowrun can't even keep cased and caseless ammunition straight, and puts carbine and assault rifles (that share the same ammo in the real world) in different categories for ammo. I wouldn't look very hard at this area of abstraction or you might suffer 1d6 Sanity loss.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

-- Shadowrun can't even keep cased and caseless ammunition straight, and puts carbine and assault rifles (that share the same ammo in the real world) in different categories for ammo. I wouldn't look very hard at this area of abstraction or you might suffer 1d6 Sanity loss.

Oh man. And I've got so little left to spare. This could get ugly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Even if the previous edition futzed up the lore and supporting mechanics?

Which is nothing more than an opinion...

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Which is nothing more than an opinion...

Hehehe. I've noticed you're a staunch defender of SR 4th Edition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hehehe. I've noticed you're a staunch defender of SR 4th Edition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

It has issues, most of which I have come to live with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Sadly, I will likely not get into 5th Edition much, due to financial reasons. Some things in 5th Edition are intriguing to me, but there are things I have read that really are disturbing. Oh well...

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

It has issues, most of which I have come to live with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Sadly, I will likely not get into 5th Edition much, due to financial reasons. Some things in 5th Edition are intriguing to me, but there are things I have read that really are disturbing. Oh well...

Having not played it, I can't comment extensively on the issues, though there are some earlier edition mechanics that I'm going to miss. That said, a TN of 6 being the same as a TN of 7 will not be one of those. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And hey, the PDF is only $20. So while subsequent books may be more pricey, that initial entrance barrier is low, no? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS