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> Hacking Cyberware, Wargarbbbbbbl RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
Sorry Pal, I Had To Hack Your Eyes
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RHat
post Jul 5 2013, 05:18 AM
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QUOTE (Lurker37 @ Jul 4 2013, 07:12 PM) *
So, what does the Face do again?


Leadership, which from what I hear has had its combat functions made much more clear - and from what I've seen, they kind of rock.
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RHat
post Jul 5 2013, 05:28 AM
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QUOTE (Neurosis @ Jul 4 2013, 05:05 PM) *
Let me back up a bit, because I was a bit confused/emotional posting in the heat of the moment above and as NATH pointed out some shit I said was FACTUALLY INACCURATE. I don't think it's fair or called for to say, unilaterally, that I don't understand the Matrix rules, but the Matrix be confusing, and I think anyone can potentially get confused. Still, not my proudest moment!

"These benefits only apply when the item's wireless mode is on. Your Ares Alpha can't adjust for the wind direction and speed if it can't download the up-to-the-second weather conditions, and your Eurocar Westwind 3000 doesn't know the status of the next three traffic lights if it's not connected to GridGuide. A wireless device is always vulnerable to subversion and control by a hacker within wireless handshake range. You can defend your gear with a good commlink and a personal area network. Even better, defending against threats from the Matrix is part of your team hacker's job. If she's not available, you might occasionally want to turn wireless off."

I wrote this text, I recognize my examples there for the Ares Alpha. So clearly *at some point* I knew that Wireless bonuses required Matrix functionality. In hindsight, it appears they DO require Matrix functionality according to the 5E RAW. In other words...

"My understanding of SR5 was that Wireless bonuses did not require MATRIX Connectivity, only PAN connectivity. I could be wrong, but when I wrote MOST (not all) of the Wireless bonuses and made MOST but not all of the comments I have made about them, it was this understanding I had in mind. So in the pejoratively stupid "Extendable Baton" example, there is no wireless signal ping-ponging through some Matrix cloud protocol. Your thought directly transmits a wireless signal to the baton, done deal."

I was completely fucking wrong here. My bad!

That said, I think that MOST items SHOULD still receive wireless bonuses with PAN, not Matrix, connectivity. What's important to me is that wireless bonuses encourage device hackability, not that they require MATRIX connectivity perse. But of course, and I've said this before...my ideal version of Shadowrun is not what SR5 is. SR5 is a collaborative effort between many, many, many cooks. So yes, it seems that in RAW, ALL Wireless Bonuses DO require Matrix connectivity. Which is...an idea I was once cognizant of, clearly, but not one I am currently defending.

I want everything to be hackable, I don't necessarily want everything to be hackable over the Matrix from your cozy apartment with complete impunity and freedom from reprisal. Ideally, I want wireless hacking to have approximately the same range of engagement of a sniper rifle, unless something is (with good reason) connected to the Matrix, and which point it becomes more comparable to astral travel. Again, what I want has no bearing on what actually IS in SR5 because I am not its sole/chief author.


Hm. Now, that makes me wonder why Smartguns and Vision Enhancement are supposed to work better with PAN access? I get how it would work with Matrix access, but I'd be curious to know your explanation for the function through PAN access.

And for what it's worth, I think much of what lead to people's response to the bonuses is the fact that so many of them re-enable old functionality, instead of adding something that is new to the player.
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binarywraith
post Jul 5 2013, 05:36 AM
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QUOTE (Neurosis @ Jul 4 2013, 03:56 PM) *
My understanding of SR5 was that Wireless bonuses did not require MATRIX Connectivity, only PAN connectivity. I could be wrong, but when I wrote MOST (not all) of the Wireless bonuses and made MOST but not all of the comments I have made about them, it was this understanding I had in mind. So in the pejoratively stupid "Extendable Baton" example, there is no wireless signal ping-ponging through some Matrix cloud protocol. Your thought directly transmits a wireless signal to the baton, done deal.


So your whole 'fuck you if you don't like wireless bonuses' screed is based on a faulty understanding of the rules as written at base?


Wow. Just wow. High quality writing, there.
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KCKitsune
post Jul 5 2013, 05:45 AM
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QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 5 2013, 12:28 AM) *
Hm. Now, that makes me wonder why Smartguns and Vision Enhancement are supposed to work better with PAN access? I get how it would work with Matrix access, but I'd be curious to know your explanation for the function through PAN access.

And for what it's worth, I think much of what lead to people's response to the bonuses is the fact that so many of them re-enable old functionality, instead of adding something that is new to the player.

No, RHat, most of the problems were the data trail that was left behind when the Shadowrunners did their "foul deeds".
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RHat
post Jul 5 2013, 05:46 AM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jul 4 2013, 11:36 PM) *
So your whole 'fuck you if you don't like wireless bonuses' screed is based on a faulty understanding of the rules as written at base?


Wow. Just wow. High quality writing, there.


Dude, you have seen how many other posts in which one of the freelancers hasn't been completely sure which version of a rule was landed on, yes? The fact, in and of itself, that he seems to have gotten things crossed between final rules and working versions is hardly surprising and not really indicative of quality - whenever a project goes through enough iterations (and it is a DAMN GOOD THING that they went through so many - rapid iteration is an extremely useful development tool) it is inevitable that people will get things mixed around; human memory's like that.
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RHat
post Jul 5 2013, 05:47 AM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jul 4 2013, 11:45 PM) *
No, RHat, most of the problems were the data trail that was left behind when the Shadowrunners did their "foul deeds".


For you, perhaps, but not in general - that's a much smaller subset, and one with far less grounding because it makes a large number of assumptions that could easily be false - and in some cases directly contrary to points established in SR4.
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Wired_SR_AEGIS
post Jul 5 2013, 06:08 AM
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QUOTE (DWC @ Jul 5 2013, 02:29 AM) *
Except that the in-game effects that you're trying to rationalize were generated by someone who has explicitly stated that he did not actually understand how the game mechanic he was writing about worked.


Hahaha. I don't have to rationalize anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I can say that the answer depends on implementation 'til I'm blue in the face, and when I run out of oxygen, Alan Turing will rise up out of his grave and continue to say it for me.

QUOTE (DWC @ Jul 5 2013, 02:29 AM) *
And this engineer wonders what sort of Olympian, why one guy is in a chair, and fifteen different questions about the metrics of the race.


Bingo. Now we're talking. And that's really the crux of this whole issue. What are the rules of the race? What sort of a participant do they favor?

In the context of Shadowrun, with systems whose requirements of operation and implementation are unknown, it is ludicrous to make a sweeping statement about how it must operate. Unless, like, there's someone in here with a PhD in theoretical distributed computing. And they've got a whitepaper they'd like to drop onto dumpshock.

But from the sounds of it, there isn't. (It sounds like there's a few IT guys in the mix, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

So, like, may a non-distributed solution be a more efficient architecture for a given problem? Sure. Must it be? Absolutely not. And there are a number of excellent reasons why it wouldn't be sprinkled throughout the last two weeks of threads.

So... I mean, at the end of the day I get that a lot of you can configure your home router, and you probably prefer directly wired connectivity over surfing the net on Wi-Fi. So I can understand why a number of the assertions that have been made feel intuitive. Just understand that you're operating on assumptions built on a framework that may be constructed in fundamentally different ways inside the universe of SR5 -- So to carry over those assumptions without first challenging them is a product of ignorance, not insight.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
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RHat
post Jul 5 2013, 06:11 AM
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QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 5 2013, 12:08 AM) *
Hahaha. I don't have to rationalize anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I can say that the answer depends on implementation 'til I'm blue in the face, and when I run out of oxygen, Alan Turing will rise up out of his grave and continue to say it for me.


Pretty sure Turing would have a few other things to say if he popped out of his grave. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Wired_SR_AEGIS
post Jul 5 2013, 06:26 AM
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QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 5 2013, 06:11 AM) *
Pretty sure Turing would have a few other things to say if he popped out of his grave. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Choice remarks about finally getting those damn ruskies once they started reusing their one time pads, no doubt.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
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Sendaz
post Jul 5 2013, 09:07 AM
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QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 5 2013, 02:11 AM) *
Pretty sure Turing would have a few other things to say if he popped out of his grave. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

umm... if ZombieTuring came out of the grave wouldn't he be going 'AAAIIIIII, AAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIII' ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

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nezumi
post Jul 5 2013, 11:57 AM
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Neurosis, thank you for being straight with us.

Do you know if this is how the editors and managers envisioned the system working as well? Is there any possibility for an errata?
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Sengir
post Jul 5 2013, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 4 2013, 08:22 PM) *
Because in addition to raw power, there's many other issues such as how many threads you can throw around

Even in a perfectly parallelizable case, replacing a device with performance P with two devices with performance (P/2) yields exactly the same result. So "more threads" doesn't come close to getting a cigar.

QUOTE
The whole "can't hack me because signal range is only 3m" thing only works if there's nothing wireless inside that radius, which will almost never happen.

Why do you think my little commlink collection would be wireless? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


QUOTE (Neurosis @ Jul 4 2013, 09:49 PM) *
I feel pretty bad that they're so spectacularly hated/reviled.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37734424.jpg

PS: But don't take it too personal. You had to shill an idea which was tried before and universally shot down, that was a forlon hope job to start with...
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binarywraith
post Jul 5 2013, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 5 2013, 06:13 AM) *
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37734424.jpg

PS: But don't take it too personal. You had to shill an idea which was tried before and universally shot down, that was a forlon hope job to start with...


Well, no. To be blunt, he didn't have to shill for it, just write for it.

Coming here to shill for if might have been a poor plan. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Mäx
post Jul 5 2013, 01:54 PM
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QUOTE (Neurosis @ Jul 4 2013, 11:49 PM) *
Wireless Bonuses were not my idea, but I was the guy who was told to seed the gear chapter with them. So I did so. I feel pretty bad that they're so spectacularly hated/reviled.

Well maybe you should have spend more thought at making them atleast somewhat logical.
And not "manually folding out/in your guns bipod can be done faster if you connect it to the matrix."
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DWC
post Jul 5 2013, 02:09 PM
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I'm curious whether we will see an errata of this, since the item specific bonuses were generated based on something other than the final iteration of the rules. There's no harm in the company updating them to address this failure of the editorial process.

It's kind of hilarious that what has turned out to be the thing people object to most was the product of a mistake. If Hardy had sent the chapter back to be revised based on the final mechanics for attaining Matrix bonuses, the vocal minority wouldn't be screaming about it. A peek behind the curtain of "we were going to do this, but it didn't make sense within the context of the game universe so we decided not to" would have even won some brownie points along the way.

Between the annoyed potential customers and having the author who made the screwup openly trolling the annoying potential customers, it seems like the inaction has done more harm than good.
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UmaroVI
post Jul 5 2013, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (Neurosis @ Jul 4 2013, 07:05 PM) *
"My understanding of SR5 was that Wireless bonuses did not require MATRIX Connectivity, only PAN connectivity. I could be wrong, but when I wrote MOST (not all) of the Wireless bonuses and made MOST but not all of the comments I have made about them, it was this understanding I had in mind. So in the pejoratively stupid "Extendable Baton" example, there is no wireless signal ping-ponging through some Matrix cloud protocol. Your thought directly transmits a wireless signal to the baton, done deal."

I was completely fucking wrong here. My bad!

That said, I think that MOST items SHOULD still receive wireless bonuses with PAN, not Matrix, connectivity. What's important to me is that wireless bonuses encourage device hackability, not that they require MATRIX connectivity perse. But of course, and I've said this before...my ideal version of Shadowrun is not what SR5 is. SR5 is a collaborative effort between many, many, many cooks. So yes, it seems that in RAW, ALL Wireless Bonuses DO require Matrix connectivity. Which is...an idea I was once cognizant of, clearly, but not one I am currently defending.

I want everything to be hackable, I don't necessarily want everything to be hackable over the Matrix from your cozy apartment with complete impunity and freedom from reprisal. Ideally, I want wireless hacking to have approximately the same range of engagement of a sniper rifle, unless something is (with good reason) connected to the Matrix, and which point it becomes more comparable to astral travel. Again, what I want has no bearing on what actually IS in SR5 because I am not its sole/chief author.


Is there any chance of issuing an errata changing some of the "Matrix bonuses" to "Wireless bonuses" that only require PAN access? Or at least an "unofficial errata" as Patrick has done, listing which items should only require PAN connectivity for those of us who would like to houserule it to be in line with RAI?

There are some people who hate the whole idea of Matrix Bonuses, but I think a fair number of people would be happy with it if just this issue were fixed.
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hermit
post Jul 5 2013, 03:21 PM
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More sensible Matrix boni would be all that is needed to fix this, but that looks stongly like houserule territorry.
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Ricochet
post Jul 5 2013, 03:22 PM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jul 4 2013, 05:17 PM) *
False: Logic 5 and Cerebral Booster level 2 gives you logic 7... and (based on SR4) available at character gen.


Cerebral Booster is confirmed in, although it did double in cost (approx.) Getting that Cerebral Booster may require a significant deck downgrade, so you need to make more choices here.

(Personally my formerly paralyzed decker is going in with a 49,500 deck for missions, so I'm ready to take a big beating.)
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binarywraith
post Jul 5 2013, 03:30 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 5 2013, 09:21 AM) *
More sensible Matrix boni would be all that is needed to fix this, but that looks stongly like houserule territorry.



Yeah, bonuses that are actually bonuses, and make some sort of logical sense as things that would be aided by outside connection would have kept this whole thing from blowing up.
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hermit
post Jul 5 2013, 03:31 PM
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QUOTE
Cerebral Booster is confirmed in, although it did double in cost (approx.) Getting that Cerebral Booster may require a significant deck downgrade, so you need to make more choices here.

(Personally my formerly paralyzed decker is going in with a 49,500 deck for missions, so I'm ready to take a big beating.)

The Quickstart rules decker has a cerebral booster and a Shiawase Cyber-5, which should be a mid-range deck. That's what I went with.
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Sengir
post Jul 5 2013, 04:09 PM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jul 5 2013, 01:24 PM) *
Well, no. To be blunt, he didn't have to shill for it, just write for it.

That is what I meant by shilling it. Neo hacking is a stupid idea which the playerbase overwhelmingly voted against with their feet, Neurosis wanted to come up with a fluff reasoning for why it should work despite being illogical and stupid -- in other words, sell players on the idea that their characters would run around with easily hackable 'ware.
Yep, it t failed abjectly, but I doubt the best fluff author of all times could do much better.


Although a Conflict-of-Interest Statement would have been in order for the OP...
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Neurosis
post Jul 5 2013, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE
Except that the in-game effects that you're trying to rationalize were generated by someone who has explicitly stated that he did not actually understand how the game mechanic he was writing about worked.


False. To reiterate, momentary lapse in understanding was after-the-fact. When I was writing about it, I did in fact understand it. But several months have transpired in the interrim.

QUOTE
I'm curious whether we will see an errata of this, since the item specific bonuses were generated based on something other than the final iteration of the rules. There's no harm in the company updating them to address this failure of the editorial process.


Once more, no.

While writing the wireless bonuses, I understood they required Matrix Connectivity.

While discussing them here, I boneheadedly forgot that.

But (fortunately, unfortunately, for good or ill, come what may) Matrix Connectivity was the original intention of the rules.

QUOTE
So your whole 'fuck you if you don't like wireless bonuses' screed is based on a faulty understanding of the rules as written at base?


Incorrect, bucko. To reiterate:

My error was in my post-hoc, hindsight statement that "wireless bonuses" worked just fine with PAN Connectivity. When the wireless bonuses were actually written (by me), I clearly knew that they were designed to work with Matrix Connectivity (I can tell from the rules text). That was in February, though, and in the intervening time I momentarily forgot. To err is human. I am exceptionally human these days.

QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jul 5 2013, 08:24 AM) *
Well, no. To be blunt, he didn't have to shill for it, just write for it.

Coming here to shill for if might have been a poor plan. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Not shilling for anything, dude. I don't care about wireless bonuses being a thing one way or another-- I'm not sure they make sense in universe, and while I appreciate what they're trying to do as a game mechanic, I'm not sure they were the best implementation of that idea.

What I DO like is the idea of combat hackers that are able to hack stuff, in combat. Including cyberware. But that's not really IN SR5 to the degree that you might think it is, so it's not possible to shill for it. Only to support the idea of it. Which I do.

QUOTE (nezumi @ Jul 5 2013, 06:57 AM) *
Neurosis, thank you for being straight with us.

Do you know if this is how the editors and managers envisioned the system working as well? Is there any possibility for an errata?


I am pretty sure that my NDA prevents me from speaking to that question nezumi, sorry.

Suffice to say there were numerous disagreements both within the rules committee and between the rules committee and the rest of the freelancers on the project, a project which spanned years in development.

QUOTE
Is there any chance of issuing an errata changing some of the "Matrix bonuses" to "Wireless bonuses" that only require PAN access? Or at least an "unofficial errata" as Patrick has done, listing which items should only require PAN connectivity for those of us who would like to houserule it to be in line with RAI?


Probably not, UmaroVI, sorry. You can houserule it whatever way you want but just because I'm a screw up and said the wrong thing on an internet forum doesn't mean the Powers That Be are likely to change the rules. : /
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cndblank
post Jul 5 2013, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 2 2013, 09:37 AM) *
The best part about good old Shadowtech was that it was written by someone who actually knew their shit.


Very true!
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Sengir
post Jul 5 2013, 11:20 PM
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QUOTE (Neurosis @ Jul 5 2013, 08:05 PM) *
False. To reiterate, momentary lapse in understanding was after-the-fact. When I was writing about it, I did in fact understand it. But several months have transpired in the interrim.

What is the matrix reasoning for the "pejoratively stupid" baton, then? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Draco18s
post Jul 6 2013, 05:44 AM
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QUOTE (Neurosis @ Jul 5 2013, 02:05 PM) *
Once more, no.

While writing the wireless bonuses, I understood they required Matrix Connectivity.

While discussing them here, I boneheadedly forgot that.

But (fortunately, unfortunately, for good or ill, come what may) Matrix Connectivity was the original intention of the rules.

Probably not, UmaroVI, sorry. You can houserule it whatever way you want but just because I'm a screw up and said the wrong thing on an internet forum doesn't mean the Powers That Be are likely to change the rules. : /


...
And that exact reason is why I will not be buying a ticket onto the SR5 boat.

Had it been the other way around I would be sailing standby.
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