Hacking Cyberware, Wargarbbbbbbl RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE Options

[Shadow Knight]

Probably not, UmaroVI, sorry. You can houserule it whatever way you want but just because I'm a screw up and said the wrong thing on an internet forum doesn't mean the Powers That Be are likely to change the rules. : /

Sure there is. We raise hell and flood their mailboxes with how much we DO NOT LIKE THEM. and they will change.

[Glyph]

I get the impression that they consider Dumpshock to be a small, discontented vocal minority. On the other hand, the hue and cry over the changes to direct combat spells in SR4A did result in it being changed to an optional rule. I hope they do fix it. There are many changes I dislike in the new edition, but the implementation of wireless "bonuses" is really the only deal-breaker for me.

[RHat]

Sure there is. We raise hell and flood their mailboxes with how much we DO NOT LIKE THEM. and they will change.

You rather overestimate the importance of forums like this. They're hilariously non-representative. It's one thing to take feedback from places like this and give it due consideration, but you do NOT look to forums like these for an accurate idea of how the playerbase at large feels.

[Temperance]

I can say that the answer depends on implementation...

This is (un)fortunately true.

Due to some NDAs, I can't give details. But suffice it to say that I work in IT for a company that provides dedicated server hosting. For those unfamiliar with the concept, your company rents servers or server space to host their data, website, etc and my company provides it tailored to your company's needs. (Why yes, this is a security vulnerability. And yes, we take pains to eliminate as many as possibly feasible.) All the hardware/overhead/power/infrastructure is local to us, and remote to the company. In many ways it's IT outsourcing, but on the physical level.

When we assembled our infrastructure, we went to the manufacturers of our equipment and proposed our network design. We spoke to their engineers who design network infrastructure support. They laughed and said the equipment doesn't work that way. It physically *can't* provide the logical support we required. They literally said it was impossible. We made it happen anyway.

I relate that to say this: I have no problems conceptually with any of the ideas presented. Yes, even the bonuses. (I admit some of the wireless bonuses do baffle me, but I'm willing to handwave that on the same premise of accepting the ones I do understand.) On too many occasions, including one that has provided my paycheck for almost 6 years, people have said "That's impossible, it doesn't and can't work that way", and yet it does.

Now, please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying my understanding is greater than the understanding of anyone else. (Or I know more than you [specifically or generally].) What I am saying is, advances in technology may give us ways to do things we haven't imagined because our current understanding of science and technology says such a thing impossible.

Though, I'm reminded of something I read once: In fiction, things must be realistic* to the reader. Reality, however, has no such limitation.

* As always, the mileage can vary depending on the reader.

-Temperance

[Draco18s]

Though, I'm reminded of something I read once: In fiction, things must be realistic* to the reader. Reality, however, has no such limitation.

* As always, the mileage can vary depending on the reader.

As I mentioned in an (adult) writing panel last night, suspension of disbelief is a fickle thing.
There's one book I started reading not too long ago that I simply can't read any more because the main character--a dragon--flew through a narrow canyon and clipped his shoulder on a rock.

It's not impossible, but it puts too much work on me, the reader, in order to justify how that is possible.

Wireless bonuses like ex-ex reporting back the health of the target or extendable batons extending faster falls into the same category:
Is it possible it could work like this? Yes, sure, but it is too unrealistic to maintain the suspension of disbelief.

[Tanegar]

I get the impression that they consider Dumpshock to be a small, discontented vocal minority. On the other hand, the hue and cry over the changes to direct combat spells in SR4A did result in it being changed to an optional rule. I hope they do fix it. There are many changes I dislike in the new edition, but the implementation of wireless "bonuses" is really the only deal-breaker for me.

Yes, we are so discontented with Shadowrun that we talk about it obsessively to the tune of 1,238,604 posts (at the time of this writing).

[Temperance]

As I mentioned in an (adult) writing panel last night, suspension of disbelief is a fickle thing.
There's one book I started reading not too long ago that I simply can't read any more because the main character--a dragon--flew through a narrow canyon and clipped his shoulder on a rock.

It's not impossible, but it puts too much work on me, the reader, in order to justify how that is possible.

Wireless bonuses like ex-ex reporting back the health of the target or extendable batons extending faster falls into the same category:
Is it possible it could work like this? Yes, sure, but it is too unrealistic to maintain the suspension of disbelief.

I can see that. The dragon example is questionable without other context. :/ Though, my mind immediately thought of a couple ways it could work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) But then, I've also seen birds do similar things when flying around indoors or under decorative eaves. Poor things almost always ended up crashing though. Without that experience, I can definitely see how that would stretch credulity. Heck, watching birds recover from clipping things is pretty incredulous. (The first time I saw it, I probably said "That did not fucking happen.") But then, as I mentioned, reality doesn't need to be realistic.

For a number of SR items, I agree with you. Including, but not limited to, the examples you cited. They completely baffle me. So while I am willing to handwave it (sufficiently advanced technology and all), it wouldn't bother me if they went away completely. Otherwise from what I have seen, I am completely fine with the actual dice bonuses and stuff that can be supported by distributed computing or the like.

But suspension of disbelief? I unequivocally agree she's a fickle bitch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Temperance

[Werewindlefr]

So, hold on a second. After a careful reading of the rules, one of the things that bothers me with hacking is how exceedingly easy it is to do it. It takes a semi-decent hacker a couple complex actions to disable or destroy the best hardware there is while taking only mild risk. You can sleaze your way through a top-secret device (rating 6) in 3 actions with reasonable success rate (remember, a good hacker has 15-18 dice to its actions, +edge if needed) and then reboot it or format it.

Doesn't it bother you that hackers can succeed at almost everything in almost no time right from chargen? That even high-security devices melt like butter in front of a hacker?

[DeathStrobe]

So, hold on a second. After a careful reading of the rules, one of the things that bothers me with hacking is how exceedingly easy it is to do it. It takes a semi-decent hacker a couple complex actions to disable or destroy the best hardware there is while taking only mild risk. You can sleaze your way through a top-secret device (rating 6) in 3 actions with reasonable success rate (remember, a good hacker has 15-18 dice to its actions, +edge if needed) and then reboot it or format it.

Doesn't it bother you that hackers can succeed at almost everything in almost no time right from chargen? That even high-security devices melt like butter in front of a hacker?

No. The one thing I hated about SR4 was how long it took to hack things on the fly. Everything was a boring extended test in the Matrix. It only served to slow down the pace of the game. While your Street Sam or Mage will finish combat in about two passes, the Hacker will still be working his techno-wizardry just because Matrix rules were designed to be a bottleneck in the action. And that's just straight up boring.

[Epicedion]

So, hold on a second. After a careful reading of the rules, one of the things that bothers me with hacking is how exceedingly easy it is to do it. It takes a semi-decent hacker a couple complex actions to disable or destroy the best hardware there is while taking only mild risk. You can sleaze your way through a top-secret device (rating 6) in 3 actions with reasonable success rate (remember, a good hacker has 15-18 dice to its actions, +edge if needed) and then reboot it or format it.

Doesn't it bother you that hackers can succeed at almost everything in almost no time right from chargen? That even high-security devices melt like butter in front of a hacker?

Based on how fast combat generally moves, not really. 3 actions is enough for a decent street samurai to completely dismember most of an enemy squad. The hacker himself with a decent gun skill could probably do more damage with a rifle.

I see this coming up more when you run into someone so badass that hitting them is a problem -- MbW or WR + RE etc for 20 dodge dice, and so on. Someone that needs to be taken down a peg fast.

[Sengir]

No. The one thing I hated about SR4 was how long it took to hack things on the fly. Everything was a boring extended test in the Matrix. It only served to slow down the pace of the game. While your Street Sam or Mage will finish combat in about two passes, the Hacker will still be working his techno-wizardry just because Matrix rules were designed to be a bottleneck in the action. And that's just straight up boring.

1.) Faster resolution does not necessitate higher chances of success
2.) The problem with hacking at combat speed is that stuff outside combat happens at the same timescale. The hacker can screw with your eyes in two Combat Turns? Well, that means the hacker sitting next to Joe Wageslave in the cafe just needs six seconds for Joe's commlink, too. The hacker can wave his hands and make the fire door come crashing down on an unfortunate guard? In other words, the hacker can pwn MCT's security while driving past the facility, without even slowing down suspiciously.

Fast resolution OOC is nice and well, but if R6 devices cause little slowdown IC you open a huge can of graboids.

[Shadow Knight]

You rather overestimate the importance of forums like this. They're hilariously non-representative. It's one thing to take feedback from places like this and give it due consideration, but you do NOT look to forums like these for an accurate idea of how the playerbase at large feels.

I never said do it here. I said fill THEIR inboxes. Enough complain and it will change

[Werewindlefr]

No. The one thing I hated about SR4 was how long it took to hack things on the fly. Everything was a boring extended test in the Matrix. It only served to slow down the pace of the game. While your Street Sam or Mage will finish combat in about two passes, the Hacker will still be working his techno-wizardry just because Matrix rules were designed to be a bottleneck in the action. And that's just straight up boring.

But it's also non-sensical. The best device security systems can't slow down a chargen hacker more than an action, if he's unlucky!
It's also very "all-or-nothing" and instantaneous. A Decker can't plan the hacking of a new top-secret satellite and setup a way to slip through its defense via careful study.

Based on how fast combat generally moves, not really. 3 actions is enough for a decent street samurai to completely dismember most of an enemy squad. The hacker himself with a decent gun skill could probably do more damage with a rifle.

The Decker doesn't even need to be there and can defend itself against the Street Sam, much more than the later can defend itself against the hacker. There are lots of relatively simple options to defend against a physical attack and make it costly for the attacker, much less so with the decker.

Basically, in SR5, it takes a decker to take down/defend against a decker.

[Tzeentch]

You rather overestimate the importance of forums like this. They're hilariously non-representative. It's one thing to take feedback from places like this and give it due consideration, but you do NOT look to forums like these for an accurate idea of how the playerbase at large feels.

I would be SHOCKED if Catalyst gets more feedback about the game than FASA did. Not only shocked, I would be outright skeptical. I remember talking to Mike Mulvihill about this and their experiment with the UCAS elections. Even really pushing it the response rate was super small. And they didn't get that many letters about anything even though their address was in every book (which I see isn't the case in recent ones) - this was pre ubiquitous email remember. And considering the size of the roleplaying market in general, and Shadowrun's in particular . . .

You might want to send an email to the line developer and see if he can give you an estimate of the SR5 print run and last few gear sourcebooks were (plot books tend to sell to just GMs), that will give you an idea of how significant the forum-goers are (small or large) compared to casual buyers.

[Nath]

When the wireless bonuses were actually written (by me), I clearly knew that they were designed to work with Matrix Connectivity (I can tell from the rules text). That was in February, though, and in the intervening time I momentarily forgot. To err is human. I am exceptionally human these days.

Frankly, I think CGL may have been pushing immersion too far. I know Fastjack suffers from split personality disorder and was basically daydreaming when he designed the new Matrix, but I don't think it was needed to replicate it for the Matrix rules.

[Nath]

When we assembled our infrastructure, we went to the manufacturers of our equipment and proposed our network design. We spoke to their engineers who design network infrastructure support. They laughed and said the equipment doesn't work that way. It physically *can't* provide the logical support we required. They literally said it was impossible. We made it happen anyway.

I relate that to say this: I have no problems conceptually with any of the ideas presented. Yes, even the bonuses. (I admit some of the wireless bonuses do baffle me, but I'm willing to handwave that on the same premise of accepting the ones I do understand.) On too many occasions, including one that has provided my paycheck for almost 6 years, people have said "That's impossible, it doesn't and can't work that way", and yet it does.

Now, please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying my understanding is greater than the understanding of anyone else. (Or I know more than you [specifically or generally].) What I am saying is, advances in technology may give us ways to do things we haven't imagined because our current understanding of science and technology says such a thing impossible.

To be fair, a number of people complaining about the Matrix bonuses are not saying they're impossible to obtain. For them, it's quite the opposite. They're actually saying they should be obtainable without the need for a Matrix access, rather than with it.

Except for the sound suppressor I guess.

[vapor]

Yes, we are so discontented with Shadowrun that we talk about it obsessively to the tune of 1,238,604 posts (at the time of this writing).

Most of which are circlejerks and side arguements.

[KCKitsune]

To be fair, a number of people complaining about the Matrix bonuses are not saying they're impossible to obtain. For them, it's quite the opposite. They're actually saying they should be obtainable without the need for a Matrix access, rather than with it.

Actually some of the bonuses are reversed. Take for instance the smartlink. It's suppose to only give you the +2 dice if you're connected to the matrix, it only gives an accuracy boost if you're not connected. This is the reverse of what it should be.

Most of which are circlejerks and side arguements.

They are still discussions about Shadowrun.

[DeathStrobe]

1.) Faster resolution does not necessitate higher chances of success
2.) The problem with hacking at combat speed is that stuff outside combat happens at the same timescale. The hacker can screw with your eyes in two Combat Turns? Well, that means the hacker sitting next to Joe Wageslave in the cafe just needs six seconds for Joe's commlink, too. The hacker can wave his hands and make the fire door come crashing down on an unfortunate guard? In other words, the hacker can pwn MCT's security while driving past the facility, without even slowing down suspiciously.

Fast resolution OOC is nice and well, but if R6 devices cause little slowdown IC you open a huge can of graboids.

Your straw man arguments are silly.

In example 2, are we to assume that the runner's are in a facility with no spider or IC to offer Matrix defense? And despite that the Matrix has been faster then meat in previous shadowrun editions, why does it make sense for the Matrix to be "faster" in the sense you can break the rules and get 5 IP, yet slower because every Matrix Test is an extended test that takes at least 3 passes on average to get passed a firewall and then several more passes to do what you really want to do while combat is over in a flash for every other archtype?

As for example 1, you don't know the rules so you can't assume that success will come that quick and easy. What makes you think you can't buy IC as a non-decker and have some Matrix defense? Or, simply turn off the device and make the enemy decker suffer dumpshock?

[lokii]

Catalyst needs to do something substantial in order to get the attention of the forums.

Why?

Because they're exclusive. And fun and they lead to a better life!

Carry on.

[Moves]

I've been GMing Shadowrun for over a decade and I can count the number of deckers/hackers I've had on one hand. The mechanics were never all that great for them, and NPCs filled the role. Nobody wants to show up an hour early to run through the Matrix, and then sit on their hands for the rest of the run.

To me, I think that giving hackers something to do in combat is a good move, even if it imbalances the field for cyber sammies.

Storyline wise, the disadvantage makes sense to me. I've always viewed cybered out characters as guys who gave up a ton to be a runner in the first place. They don't have the natural magical ability that characterizes the sixth world. So they called the surgeon and settled for the next best thing.

They should be a little bit behind the blazing fast hackers. They should be less powerful than the mojo slingers. It's the cost of admission for being mundane.

Playing a character who's just a touch slower, and a bit more vulnerable than the rest of the team can be a hell of a lot more fun than rocking a world-crushing ammo absorber, anyway.

My two cents. (and my first post! Cheers, Dumpshock!)

[Tanegar]

I've been GMing Shadowrun for over a decade and I can count the number of deckers/hackers I've had on one hand. The mechanics were never all that great for them, and NPCs filled the role. Nobody wants to show up an hour early to run through the Matrix, and then sit on their hands for the rest of the run.

To me, I think that giving hackers something to do in combat is a good move, even if it imbalances the field for cyber sammies.

Storyline wise, the disadvantage makes sense to me. I've always viewed cybered out characters as guys who gave up a ton to be a runner in the first place. They don't have the natural magical ability that characterizes the sixth world. So they called the surgeon and settled for the next best thing.

They should be a little bit behind the blazing fast hackers. They should be less powerful than the mojo slingers. It's the cost of admission for being mundane.

Playing a character who's just a touch slower, and a bit more vulnerable than the rest of the team can be a hell of a lot more fun than rocking a world-crushing ammo absorber, anyway.

My two cents. (and my first post! Cheers, Dumpshock!)

You're overlooking a few things: one, magical ability doesn't characterize the Sixth World. Canonically (not that this has ever been reflected in gameplay, but that's a whole other kettle of worms), 0.1% of the general population possess any magical ability at all. One in one thousand. Assuming a world population of ~7 billion (someone please correct this number, the 6WA inexplicably lacks this datum), that's 7 million Awakened on Earth. Those 7 million include everyone with even a trace of ability, right down to the SURGElings who have astral perception and nothing else. The percentage of those who are strong enough to be PC magicians and adepts is vanishingly tiny.

Two: deckers are also mundane. Technomancers aren't, but again, different can of fish.

Three: Street samurai are the killers. Throughout every edition of Shadowrun, samurai have been presented as the "lords of the physical street." (SR2 shout-out!) Again, that hasn't always been reflected in gameplay, yadda yadda. They are the guys you want on your side when the bullets start flying. They are second-best to no-one.

Four: It's a game. If one of the core archetypes is rendered intentionally underpowered, that is poor game design.

[Sendaz]

But cyber does have the advantage that it can be cranked out and can be adapted to the situation quite a bit faster than spell research can.

That said it will be interesting to see deckers coming back into their own.

My two cents. (and my first post! Cheers, Dumpshock!)

As a fellow Minnesotan, even if I live in the UK currently, Well Met!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Bit of Minnesota trivia: Minnesota is an ancient Native American word for 'Land of Perpetual Snow' as well as 'Land of Constant Road Works' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[hermit]

They should be a little bit behind the blazing fast hackers.

Thing is, unless the hacker is in VR (and a meat bag in the real world) they're going to be slow. The problem I see is not the team hacker out-bricking the sam in the physical, it's the demiGOD in VR doing overwatch bricking everyone to bits.

[Daedelus]

Sure there is. We raise hell and flood their mailboxes with how much we DO NOT LIKE THEM. and they will change.

My group has already started flooding them with we DO LIKE THEM emails. Don't mistake the negative opinions for the only ones that they are receiving

Yes, we are so discontented with Shadowrun that we talk about it obsessively to the tune of 1,238,604 posts (at the time of this writing).

Except that 619,302 of them are in support of the system, and represents maybe 30 people. This is a semi-sarcastic and vastly estimated comment used to point out that not everyone here disagrees with the direction the rules went, and that most of us the comments come from a very small group posting a large number of times.