Hacking Cyberware, Wargarbbbbbbl RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE Options

[Sendaz]

Using the wired reflex and reaction enhancers is really not the best example though as they were an exception rather than the rule. You could not use them with any other reaction boosting methods except each other.

So they were sort of the Form Fitting Armor scenario of cyberware.

Under the new rules the FFA shouldn't stack, but I am sure they will work in some exemption to slip it in. In the same way they have retweaked it with reaction stuff, normally the two do not work but the new wifi setup gives you the workaround you need to let the two stack.

Is it annoying? yes, but they could have just ruled the two do not stack at all anytime, so it's a bit of compromise on both sides. Plus as has been mentioned before, all the decking and mech heads will come up with some sort of workaround, whether its daisy chaining commlinks to make their own 'cloud' or maybe design some sort of fly by wire system that will balance the two devices so they work together who can say..

[Lurker37]

There aren't any major shifts in cyberware power between SR4 and SR5 (except some large wireless bonuses like WR + RE, which wasn't a possible combination in SR4).

But it is allowed in the Anniversary Edition.

[RHat]

But it is allowed in the Anniversary Edition.

So it can shift freely one way, but not the other?

[Aaron]

Here's one solution: The amount of fu (or power, or level of efficacy, or whatever) simulated by each die in the game is larger in SR5 than it is in SR4. This can be inferred by the lower dice pools. As a result, the same amount of fu granted by wired reflexes and reaction enhancers working in tandem would be expressed in SR5 by a lesser bonus.

EDIT: Even without the explanation offered here, it would be quite in-universe for the functionality to swap to incompatible. It's done so two or three times before. =i)

[Glyph]

Except they do work in tandem - if you enable wireless. Which, for two pieces of 'ware that should work purely by DNI, makes no sense whatsoever. If they had gimped the wired reflexes/reaction enhancers combo, I would have understood it - they had some gear nerfs going from SR3 to SR4, too.

But making the combo conditional on wireless was a bad idea, because it used to work without it in the previous edition. So instead of people seeing it as a boost, they are all "What, suddenly I need to be online for two pieces of gear to work, when they worked fine before?". And the illogical nature of the bonus doesn't help, either.

[Not of this Worl...]

More importantly they worked together even before there was a wireless matrix. Things like that just don't make sense.

SR4 is not the first edition of the game and they should consider all the setting's history and not just the last few years of it.

[Epicedion]

More importantly they worked together even before there was a wireless matrix. Things like that just don't make sense.

SR4 is not the first edition of the game and they should consider all the setting's history and not just the last few years of it.

If you think the designers aren't allowed to rebalance gear when changing editions, I don't know what you want.

[Temperance]

More importantly they worked together even before there was a wireless matrix. Things like that just don't make sense.

SR4 is not the first edition of the game and they should consider all the setting's history and not just the last few years of it.

(Warning: TV Tropes links!) And this is the reason such terms like retcon, aka retroactive continuity, and ass pull were created. In the SR5 version of the Shadowrun universe, they were never compatible until the enabling of wireless. So really, history? Yeah, that can be ignored.

You are certainly able to argue that retcons suck or that they shouldn't have retcon'd it. I might even be inclined to agree if it were presented that way. But saying "they worked together even before there was a wireless matrix" is nonsensical in SR5, as much as you (and others) may dislike it. As noted by others, this isn't the first time they've pulled compatibility retcons.

-Temperance

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Was your Sam able to break the rules with stacking his wired reflexes and reaction enhancers and take his augmented max beyond their limits?

Irrelevant, because I could combine them (without wireless) to hit the Augmented Maximum quite nicely, no external transmissions necessary.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's a strike against a game if you can't convert existing campaigns from one edition to the edition after next?

By your logic here, SR4A Characters should convert seamlessly and without any loss to functionality at all, then. Which we know is crap. *shrug*

[Epicedion]

By your logic here, SR4A Characters should convert seamlessly and without any loss to functionality at all, then. Which we know is crap. *shrug*

What? How did you get all of that out of that question?

No, any time an edition changes you gain some and you lose some. How could it ever be possible to literally change the rules of a game, however slightly, without actually affecting anything?

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

You are certainly able to argue that retcons suck or that they shouldn't have retcon'd it. I might even be inclined to agree if it were presented that way. But saying "they worked together even before there was a wireless matrix" is nonsensical in SR5, as much as you (and others) may dislike it. As noted by others, this isn't the first time they've pulled compatibility retcons.

-Temperance

Right. Basically this.

The discussion may unfold in two ways which are valid:

1) I, the player, out-of-character, don't like retcons. I wish the designers hadn't retconned the change, because I liked it the other way. I'd like to have a discussion about how I feel about this.

OR

2) For ComputerScienceReasonX, it is impossible for two arbitrarily implemented systems to be integrated in such a way that favors the distributed nature of the Matrix 3.0.

NOT

3) In the past X years function Y was present, what happened to technology that removed that function?

I think that Option #2 has been pretty robustly defended as an untenable argument to make based on the implementation of the Matrix 3.0 largely being obfuscated from us, as players, so there is no real place for us to attack other than to assume it must operate under some arbitrary constraint that we place upon it -- An arbitrary constraint that, in reality, really need not apply.

I think Option #3 has made up a solid bulk of the complaints. The simple answer is : Retcon.

And Option #1? Sure, everyone has an opinion. Your opinion, as defined by your perception, is just as valid as everyone else. Not that it smells any better, mind you, but everyone's entitled to have one. But it would be silly to have an argument over opinions, wouldn't it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[DeathStrobe]

Irrelevant, because I could combine them (without wireless) to hit the Augmented Maximum quite nicely, no external transmissions necessary.

Well, that's also irrelevant, because be SR5 RAW, you can't. You'll have to use one or the other to hit the Augmented Max if offline, or be online to hit the max or break it by stacking them.

Okay, so lets say that the design goal is to have all electronics, including cyberware, online. You can't weasel out of it, you have to have cyberware online. What would you do to make cyberware online? Just say, everything is online and people don't get a choice? They tried that in SR4 and everyone just magiced that away with skinlinks, so clearly that didn't work. Or players would burn out their wireless with no in-game consequences, when there should have been maintenance problems from it.

So what would have been better then a wireless bonus? No bonus, just everything works better but the Sam now has to pay for a higher life style to show higher maintenance on his ware? Allow players to ignore one-third of the game and pretend the Matrix doesn't exist? Say everything is online, and you can't turn it off, ever?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Right. Basically this.

The discussion may unfold in two ways which are valid:

1) I, the player, out-of-character, don't like retcons. I wish the designers hadn't retconned the change, because I liked it the other way. I'd like to have a discussion about how I feel about this.

OR

2) For ComputerScienceReasonX, it is impossible for two arbitrarily implemented systems to be integrated in such a way that favors the distributed nature of the Matrix 3.0.

NOT

3) In the past X years function Y was present, what happened to technology that removed that function?

I think that Option #2 has been pretty robustly defended as an untenable argument to make based on the implementation of the Matrix 3.0 largely being obfuscated from us, as players, so there is no real place for us to attack other than to assume it must operate under some arbitrary constraint that we place upon it -- An arbitrary constraint that, in reality, really need not apply.
-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Entertainingly enough, It is not because we as players have been obfuscated from the design implementation of the New Matrix. It is because the Developers don't understand the design implementation of the New Matrix. As admitted by the guy who designed the online bonuses. THEY MAKE NO SENSE. THAT is the crux of the OUTRAGE on this topic. Had they implemented changes THAT MADE SENSE, there would likely be no uprising. Unfortunately, we have the mess they gave us.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Entertainingly enough, It is not because we as players have been obfuscated from the design implementation of the New Matrix. It is because the Developers don't understand the design implementation of the New Matrix. As admitted by the guy who designed the online bonuses. THEY MAKE NO SENSE. THAT is the crux of the OUTRAGE on this topic. Had they implemented changes THAT MADE SENSE, there would likely be no uprising. Unfortunately, we have the mess they gave us.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I don't mean to be condescending, so I will throw a non-sarcastic smiley face at the end to help soften the language a little, but with respect to the theoretical implementation of a system whose requirements and design are unknown, I don't think that you're qualified to say that it doesn't make sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Your frame of reference is limited to existing computer infrastructure which, obviously, does not operate like the Matrix 3.0. The Matrix 3.0 is not such a computer infrastructure. It operates under rules that you are not familiar with.

To say that the new Matrix must not operate the way that it does, is not a job for arm chair scientists. This forum is littered with probably hundreds of examples, at this point, of why a futuristic implementation of a technology could operate the way it does.

In short, to say that it must not is untenable. To say that it may not is true, but the converse is that it may. And in fact, in the context of SR5, it does.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, that's also irrelevant, because be SR5 RAW, you can't. You'll have to use one or the other to hit the Augmented Max if offline, or be online to hit the max or break it by stacking them.

Okay, so lets say that the design goal is to have all electronics, including cyberware, online. You can't weasel out of it, you have to have cyberware online. What would you do to make cyberware online? Just say, everything is online and people don't get a choice? They tried that in SR4 and everyone just magiced that away with skinlinks, so clearly that didn't work. Or players would burn out their wireless with no in-game consequences, when there should have been maintenance problems from it.

So what would have been better then a wireless bonus? No bonus, just everything works better but the Sam now has to pay for a higher life style to show higher maintenance on his ware? Allow players to ignore one-third of the game and pretend the Matrix doesn't exist? Say everything is online, and you can't turn it off, ever?

Which, again, makes absolutely no sense.

The End result is that you disable everything that makes no sense to have online. So you lose out on a few "Options" (Which are not, as has been exhaustively discussed, truly options), and return to the days where the Decker has nothing to do but WHAT HE DID IN THE PREVIOUS EDITION. which was mess with Tacnets, Drones, and the few items that you could not take of the network. OR, he used Nanites to enable your Offline gear to make it more hackable. See, the problem is that all these options ALREADY existed in SR4. All those "Choices" you are so proud of ALREADY EXISTED, but they were also easily protected against. If you had no consequences for your choices, that is not the System's fault. There are plenty of things out there that would have forced such consequences as you suggest, and if they were not enforced, that is a Table Issue not a Rules Issue. The Magic Solution of Skinlink was easily fixed with the Magical Solution of Nanites, or EMP Grenades, etc.

But wait, the developers NEEDED more stuff for the Hacker to do in combat, so they FORCE everyone to have ubiquitous online presence without dealing with the ramifications of such a decision (as well as providing ludicrous "Bonuses" for that vulnerability), and then do not tell us the reasons for such a decision other than [JM HARDY's DECISION, SO LIVE WITH IT]. THAT is what the complaint is...

If you were ignoring the Matrix in SR4a, then you were not doing it right. Again, that is a Table Issue, not a Rules Issue. *shrug*

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

If you were ignoring the Matrix in SR4a, then you were not doing it right. Again, that is a Table Issue, not a Rules Issue. *shrug*

Except, you would agree that the Matrix in SR 1 - 3, and SR 5 is better than the Matrix in SR 4, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(*nudge* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[quentra]

You mean the system that took me a week to learn, a week to design a challenge, and the decker spent five hours on while everyone else left for pizza? That SR3 Matrix? ^_^

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't mean to be condescending, so I will throw a non-sarcastic smiley face at the end to help soften the language a little, but with respect to the theoretical implementation of a system whose requirements and design are unknown, I don't think that you're qualified to say that it doesn't make sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Your frame of reference is limited to existing computer infrastructure which, obviously, does not operate like the Matrix 3.0. The Matrix 3.0 is not such a computer infrastructure. It operates under rules that you are not familiar with.

To say that the new Matrix must not operate the way that it does, is not a job for arm chair scientists. This forum is littered with probably hundreds of examples, at this point, of why a futuristic implementation of a technology could operate the way it does.

In short, to say that it must not is untenable. To say that it may not is true, but the converse is that it may. And in fact, in the context of SR5, it does.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

{In the hopes of not sounding an ASS, I also include a Smiley... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) }

SO IS THE DEVELOPER'S UNDERSTANDING SO LIMITED. I would go so far as to say the YOU are not (nor is anyone) an expert in this so called paradigm either. If you were, you would be a Multi-GazBillionaire as you implemented such an infrastructure across the globe, revolutionizing communications and connectivity in one fell swoop. So any defense of it is entirely fanciful, though sometimes rational. There is NO scientific backing for such a Global Infrastructure, because we do not have the scientific understanding required to make it even theoretically work, let alone become a reality. It is ALL conjecture.

The problem is not that they are trying to force the issue, it is that they are trying to force the issue in such a hamfisted and illogical manner. If they actually could provide explanations (and by extension, online bonuses that actually made some sense) you would have a point. The problem is that those explanations do not even exist yet. So they DO NOT ring true. Again, it is not that it exists, it is that "Online Bonuses" make absolutely no sense from what they have presented so far. Correct that, and you will likely see most of the dissenting voices disappearing.

[Stahlseele]

And it does not make sense in world either . .
There is simply no reason why one would ever constuct things like that . .

[Epicedion]

Which, again, makes absolutely no sense.

The End result is that you disable everything that makes no sense to have online. So you lose out on a few "Options" (Which are not, as has been exhaustively discussed, truly options), and return to the days where the Decker has nothing to do but WHAT HE DID IN THE PREVIOUS EDITION. which was mess with Tacnets, Drones, and the few items that you could not take of the network. OR, he used Nanites to enable your Offline gear to make it more hackable. See, the problem is that all these options ALREADY existed in SR4. All those "Choices" you are so proud of ALREADY EXISTED, but they were also easily protected against. If you had no consequences for your choices, that is not the System's fault. There are plenty of things out there that would have forced such consequences as you suggest, and if they were not enforced, that is a Table Issue not a Rules Issue. The Magic Solution of Skinlink was easily fixed with the Magical Solution of Nanites, or EMP Grenades, etc.

But wait, the developers NEEDED more stuff for the Hacker to do in combat, so they FORCE everyone to have ubiquitous online presence without dealing with the ramifications of such a decision (as well as providing ludicrous "Bonuses" for that vulnerability), and then do not tell us the reasons for such a decision other than [JM HARDY's DECISION, SO LIVE WITH IT]. THAT is what the complaint is...

If you were ignoring the Matrix in SR4a, then you were not doing it right. Again, that is a Table Issue, not a Rules Issue. *shrug*

Remember we're discussing a core rulebook, not a core rulebook with supplements A B and C. Unwired and Augmentation came out relatively late in the game for SR4, so there weren't any 'magical solutions' for 3-4 years. This core book is starting out with a stronger stance -- gear hacking is possible from launch, and not convoluted or requiring rules in books that don't exist yet.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except, you would agree that the Matrix in SR 1 - 3, and SR 5 is better than the Matrix in SR 4, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(*nudge* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Heh... I love the ideas of Decking/Hacking. Unfortunately SR1 and 2 were atrocious. In SR3, it got better, but was still very unwieldy, though workable. SR4/SR4A made Hacking work really well, and was mostly seamless, at least for me. I LIKE a lot of what I have seen from SR5's Matrix streamline, though I still do not like the Kludge of Online Bonuses crap. Unfortunately, even if I had the money to purchase SR5, that would likely be the proverbial straw that kept me away. I hate Limits, I hate Online Bonuses. 2 Core, Mandatory, changes that I truly despise. *shrug*

So in conclusion... SR4A's Matrix was the Most Awesomest system ever invented. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Glad you agree with me Wired_SR_AEGIS, together we should be able to rejoice in the enlightenment that is SR4A... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

These books came out later because of the transition from FanPro/Fasa to CGL if i remember correctly.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Remember we're discussing a core rulebook, not a core rulebook with supplements A B and C. Unwired and Augmentation came out relatively late in the game for SR4, so there weren't any 'magical solutions' for 3-4 years. This core book is starting out with a stronger stance -- gear hacking is possible from launch, and not convoluted or requiring rules in books that don't exist yet.

It is the EXACT same stance that SR4 Started from. *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
A Stance they backed off from when they realized how mind-numbingly dumb it was, I might add. Even while keeping it available, if you liked it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

And it does not make sense in world either . .
There is simply no reason why one would ever constuct things like that . .

Sure there is. If you accepted SR4's entire premise that the world should be based more on what we know of the world today -- hey, it turned out that plugging wires into everything really isn't following any sort of modern historical course, so this whole Wired Matrix looks bizarrely antiquated by today's standards -- then the logical dystopian conclusion is that the peons don't get good data security. It's not that good data security doesn't exist, it's just that most people can't really afford it.

Basically imagine what the Internet would look like if the only antivirus you could get was Norton or McAfee, and they cost $10,000 a year.

The Corps can afford to police their own stuff, and presumably they do it pretty well -- from their hosts to their augmented armies. It's not a problem for them, because they have the resources to shovel at it.

It's the little people, the runners, the mom-and-pops that use this stuff that get screwed, and that's very Shadowrun.