Hacking Cyberware, Wargarbbbbbbl RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE Options

[Moirdryd]

However it does clearly state in the quotation that the bonus doesn't exist if you're in a static zone etc. Underwater counts as just such a zone. yes it should be PAN or even DNI, but RAW isn't RAI probably is.

[Sendaz]

No. What I'm saying is if wireless is on, its on the Matrix, even if you can't access your grid, that is assuming you are in handshake range. You don't have to hack your own gear, because you already have ownership of your gear, so no test required.

Basically, I'm saying you have a 100 meter PAN and if your stuff is in that 100 meters, it also counts as a Matrix, so gets Matrix bonuses. Its in the spirit of the rules, and makes sense with how the Matrix works; seeing how the Matrix works similar to Astral Space now. By having your wireless on, your gear becomes "dual natured" and so can be attacked from the Matrix, and gets the bonuses from being "dual natured" with the Matrix. Like wise, noise zones, are like background count. A spirit can't be in a BGC that reduces the to 0, and neither can your gear exist in a place that "reduces" your gear's device rating to 0.

Just because you believe you are connected because your wifi is on, unless you are actually drawing upon that Matrix and all the information it is carrying, you are not going to gain the benefits of the wireless bonus. This is why you lose your bonuses in dead zones or any area where you lose that matrix connection. Your PAN or the PAN of the guy down the road that you might be able to detect as it is in handshake range is not sufficient according to the way the current writing portrays this.

This is why several GMs will be sitting down to house rule which items may work with a PAN alone and which really do need a full on Matrix connection. The air tank SHOULD just report to your PAN and job done, but the way they have it written now that is not how it works, hance all the many, many threads of arguing.

It's probably the single largest point of confusion for myself how this got through all the playtesting. Not the part about hacking-that is sort of the whole point of the wireless aspect, but rather how many of the most basic items should have been left at the PAN level instead of this Matrix requirement. A decker will still be able to mess with the air tank once they crack through your Commlink, but some basic functions should work regardless of connection to the web.
So as an example Internal airtank would have two levels:

Pan connected: Provides level of air remaining, Turns on or off as free action
Matrix connected: Samples air being breathed in (as it has the ability to refill itself over time) and alerts you to purity/gases issues. (High levels of CO2 or detects a hazardous gas). Rather that having a database of gases within the tanks processor, it accesses the Matrix for information to compare against.
May trigger the air tank automatically to take over in situation above.

[DeathStrobe]

Just because you believe you are connected because your wifi is on, unless you are actually drawing upon that Matrix and all the information it is carrying, you are not going to gain the benefits of the wireless bonus. This is why you lose your bonuses in dead zones or any area where you lose that matrix connection. Your PAN or the PAN of the guy down the road that you might be able to detect as it is in handshake range is not sufficient according to the way the current writing portrays this.

This is why several GMs will be sitting down to house rule which items may work with a PAN alone and which really do need a full on Matrix connection. The air tank SHOULD just report to your PAN and job done, but the way they have it written now that is not how it works, hance all the many, many threads of arguing.

It's probably the single largest point of confusion for myself how this got through all the playtesting. Not the part about hacking-that is sort of the whole point of the wireless aspect, but rather how many of the most basic items should have been left at the PAN level instead of this Matrix requirement. A decker will still be able to mess with the air tank once they crack through your Commlink, but some basic functions should work regardless of connection to the web.
So as an example Internal airtank would have two levels:

Pan connected: Provides level of air remaining, Turns on or off as free action
Matrix connected: Samples air being breathed in (as it has the ability to refill itself over time) and alerts you to purity/gases issues. (High levels of CO2 or detects a hazardous gas). Rather that having a database of gases within the tanks processor, it accesses the Matrix for information to compare against.
May trigger the air tank automatically to take over in situation above.

No, it sounds like you want it to be like that. From what I've read, that's not how I'm interpreting it. You can play the game however you want, but I don't see the rules being so strict and inflexible.

Also, the wireless Matrix is pretty much everywhere anyway. So unless you are something like a hobbyist spelunker you probably won't be losing Matrix access too often.

[Sendaz]

No, it sounds like you want it to be like that.

Um, no .. that's the point, nobody would want it to be the way as presented. I certainly do not want it to be that inflexible. But it is how it is written so I always have to keep an eye on this for the purposes of future Missions or Tournament play as this will be how they run it.

From what I've read, that's not how I'm interpreting it. You can play the game however you want, but I don't see the rules being so strict and inflexible.

That is very true, you can houserule however you like, but we are merely pointing out what has been listed within the books AND confirmed by several of the playtesters and others involved in the making of this, including the OP of this very thread that you have joined onto. If you are just playing with your group I am sure you will have an enjoyable campaign, but if you are ever planning to play with other groups or convention play and they stick to the RAW you are going to be facing a different interpretation than you currently believe to be the case and this can cause unnecessary bickering and friction.

Also, the wireless Matrix is pretty much everywhere anyway. So unless you are something like a hobbyist spelunker you probably won't be losing Matrix access too often.

Oh we agree about the widespread availability of the matrix, unless you are in a cave or underwater (and yes you will lose signal strength rapidly underwater, specifically page 231- fresh water reduces signal by 1 per 10cm and salt water is 1 per 1cm) so even moderate depths will pretty much cancel the whole connection to the matrix, which was one of the complaints about the air tank as it is used as an emergency back up for breathing when your in a smoke filled room or other similar low oxygen areas, including being underwater. So according to this if I was diving just off the coast, I would lose my matrix connection and the wireless bonus of being able to see my air levels when I go more than 10 cm down. Which IS just silly and SHOULD be allowed to be handled by the PAN alone. But that is not how it is currently written.

However those points aside, this debate was triggered by your own statement a ways back as follows:

After spending sometime I think that PANs are the Matrix so count for wireless bonuses. The Matrix is pretty much everywhere, and where its not its because there is a lot of noise in that location. And in those location your PAN won't work and you can't be hacked, so it's effectively like having your wireless off.

Basically if it has wireless on, it can be seen on the Matrix. So it doesn't mean it requires a connection to the Matrix per se, but its wireless needs to be on so that it can connect to multiple other wireless devices, which in turn will make a "Matrix" for the purpose of counting wireless bonuses.

So on one hand you are saying, yes we have to connect to the matrix, BUT I don't actually have to connect to the REAL matrix as my PAN and all the devices I slave to it are making up my own mini-matrix. And this is where we are trying to show you that is not it works as written.

If the items are connected to the Matrix, and by this we mean whether directly or slaved through your PAN and accessing the local grid you happen to be within, then yes you do get your wireless bonuses as stated by the rules.

However if you were in an area where there was no overall matrix signal to tap into (can think of a few places in the middle of what used to be Montana and Nebraska where I can never get my cellphone to work) that unless you set up a satellite linkup, you do not have access to Matrix in general and no wireless bonuses.

But your argument that the items in your PAN would make up a mini-Matrix and thus provide the so called wireless bonuses is not supported by the rules as they currently read.

We DO think it should be the way you explain for SOME things and want to have it clarified so that simple things like air tanks and batons extending CAN be included under the auspices of being part of the PAN alone.

But some items WILL need to be connected to a proper Matrix and not just your PAN to get their bonuses. An example for this would be a Medkit which has to have online Matrix connection to consult databases to determine BEST methods of treatment. It DOES have a built in database to provide it with basic functions to add to your skills but for better bonuses or to let it operate on its own you need a full on connection to the web and not your PAN alone. A device like that would not be able to be supported by your PAN as your commlink or your baton probably doesn't know the first thing about trying to counteract an exotic poison or how to extract a barbed arrow head without causing massive tearing).

Likewise your smartgun when wifi enabled is supposed to automatically pick up details like wind speeds and other factors to allow it to adjust to get those bonuses. Just running it on the PAN alone would not provide this bonus as it is written.
But I could make an argument that if I buy a small additional sensor pack and tie it into my PAN to provide the necessary updates I should be allowed to claim the equivalent of the wireless bonuses, but again as it is written I can not.

So we are not really disagreeing, I support your concept but this is not what the current edition believes for some strange reason and thus our lobbying for this to be adjusted to a more sensible version like you present.

And YES, I plan to play it just like this with PAN handling much of these effects, but it still needs to be brought to the attention of those above the silliness of the way they have left it.

[Lansdren]

Well I'm going to house rule some of this,

First will be recatagorising the wireless bonuses to be needing a active Pan or a active Matrix connection I'm going with it being a cock up and some were supposed to be used in a pan.
Second will be reversing the smartlink bonuses they make more sense to me the other way around and I'll have a look at the rest just in case
Third the hacking of cyberware will need some sanity added, Your wired reflexes shouldnt be hackable if its not connected to anything (IE it doesnt need to be connected to anything to do its normal job) so no hacking. But if you link it up to something like your commlink then that might be a way into the system.
Other stuff will be on a case by case basis as wel play.

[apple]

Also, the wireless Matrix is pretty much everywhere anyway. So unless you are something like a hobbyist spelunker you probably won't be losing Matrix access too often.

Actually your own gear cannot form their own "Matrix". It was explicitly confirmed by the devs/authors, that, for example, you have no wireless / online bonuses in the desert in or wifi inhibitating buildings (without any workaround like a satellite dish or a fibre optic cable leading to the outside).

No Matrix, no online bonuses.

SYL

[Moirdryd]

I did some house ruling and a little bit if gear writing for working with the Wireless bonus stuff. Working up on some more bits. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39155
Also looking at the TacNet thread with interest.

[RelentlessImp]

I'm waiting until the 5E Equivalent of Unwired to come out before I make any meaningful comment on this whole deal, but I'm wagering they bring back 4E's "Z-Zone" matrix connections; mesh connections, joining together to form a stronger whole, permitting wireless connectivity where otherwise you would have none - typically these examples spoke of large numbers of people all with commlinks creating an effective Matrix just from overlapping signals (nevermind that the real world equivalent would bog down beneath wireless interference - maybe they use a band that isn't affected so severely). With the power of electronics in 2075 I wager a small group of 3-4 could create something similar. So if you're alone, you're boned, but get your team together and everything's hunky-dory.

Just my thoughts. Again, I'll wait til the new Unwired hits and see what gaffs they fix - if they don't errata some of these out of existence entirely.