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> Why I think SR5 will be much better than SR4A, For our gaming group, at least
Moirdryd
post Jul 2 2013, 11:17 PM
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Perhaps apple, but if that is the case it would say more about SR4 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Look at White Wolf and the OWoD newWoD thing. Their 20th anni stuff is selling like crazy. SR5 seems to appeal to the SR3 crowd because we see things we enjoy presented in it that were taken out in SR4. I don't know that it's better as such, but new and probabley as fun.
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Abschalten
post Jul 3 2013, 12:32 AM
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I'm keeping a cautiously optimistic open mind towards SR5. I refuse to judge it until I have the PDF and I can give it a good read through, and then playtest some of those rules. Granted some things I've read about I DO NOT LIKE, but all I can do is judge these things I've read in isolation, without any context in the rules or in the game itself.

I personally am a little bit excited. I'm hoping the rules don't let me down, honestly. I hope it is a good product, one that will get me to pick up the game and use it with friends when I GM. If not, though, I still have a big pile of SR4 books to use. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Wired_SR_AEGIS
post Jul 3 2013, 12:36 AM
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QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jul 3 2013, 12:17 AM) *
Perhaps apple, but if that is the case it would say more about SR4 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Look at White Wolf and the OWoD newWoD thing. Their 20th anni stuff is selling like crazy. SR5 seems to appeal to the SR3 crowd because we see things we enjoy presented in it that were taken out in SR4. I don't know that it's better as such, but new and probabley as fun.


I'd be interested to see if there was a breakdown of the 'I hate SR5' crowd that was differentiated by members who started playing in SR4 vs. Members who had been around for previous editions.

I think I've seen them from both sides, though I wonder which of the two represents the dominant half.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
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Not of this Worl...
post Jul 3 2013, 12:47 AM
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I've said it in other threads, but you can put me down as a SR1-3 guy coming back for 5th edition. Rules wise at least. Fluff wise will take a while longer to see, but I hope for some improvements to the metaplot over 4th as well.
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DrZaius
post Jul 3 2013, 12:57 AM
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QUOTE (Abschalten @ Jul 2 2013, 07:32 PM) *
I personally am a little bit excited. I'm hoping the rules don't let me down, honestly. I hope it is a good product, one that will get me to pick up the game and use it with friends when I GM. If not, though, I still have a big pile of SR4 books to use. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


This is where I come out. There were many things I disliked about SR4, and hopefully SR5 will address them. (WARNING: EVIL GAME SYSTEM ABOUT TO BE DISCUSSED). I see the development of SR5 closer to DnD Next. SR3 was quirky, and cumbersome in places. SR4 was workable, but extremely difficult to parse in others (I don't care what anyone says, those matrix rules were the worst.) SR5 feels like it's trying to improve on the older systems as much as possible, borrowing from stuff that has worked in the past and expanding on it. Have they gone to far in places? Probably. I trust my players enough that we're not going to really have issues, I don't think. It's a question of trust; I'm playing with people I've known for 15 years. They're not going to have the security decker brick my cyberleg anymore than I'm going to drop a block on their head without a spot check; there's an implicit agreement to play fair.

Here were my main issues with the previous versions of Shadowrun, and how (I hope) SR5 addresses them.

  1. Character generation took way, way too long. This was much worse in SR4 than in SR3, because of the point buy/karma system. You can start a game of D&D within 20 minutes, if you're working with someone who knows the system. Introducing someone to SR4 for the first time, and it can literally take *hours* to build their character. God forbid you have more than 1 new player. This is untenable from a game standpoint- something needed to be done, and it looks like the priority system will help with that. Will this cause some builds to be more powerful than others? Absolutely. I don't care. The most important thing is if it addresses the chargen time issue; if it does, then I'm willing to make some tradeoffs.
  2. Confusing Matrix Rules. I know that the majority of people on this board "get" the matrix; but honestly, again coming from a new player perspective, they were awful. I hope they are not-awful. Google "The matrix explained", a thread on here, and explain how transparent those rules are if it is necessary to have a 30 page thread explaining the various nuances.
  3. Streamlined Meat/Astral/Matrix rules. It sounds like one of the goals of the design team was to avoid the "Decker jacks in, everyone else get pizza". Great! I know my group avoided deckers specifically for that reason.
  4. I was so desperate for new Shadowrun, I started converting Dungeon World into a Shadowrun setting. Understand; I never expected anyone to play this version; it was just something I did because I craved new Shadowrun rules so much, and felt the system would work with the setting. I require new Shadowrun rules, and thank goodness someone else has bothered to write them.
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Abschalten
post Jul 3 2013, 01:10 AM
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QUOTE (DrZaius @ Jul 2 2013, 08:57 PM) *
Character generation took way, way too long.


I agree with this. I'm one of those folks who likes to get characters just right, and I'll wring my hands and agonize over each and every decision I make. This is made worse by a cumbersome chargen system. The Priority system makes things streamlined enough that I only have to worry about getting my gear right, since the number of points for skills, attributes, and everything else are built into my priority choices.

In SR3, I once made a character in 60 minutes, right before a convention game I wanted to play in. This was because of the Priority system. There's no way I personally could build a character in an hour for an SR4 game. And I have never personally overseen a player of mine make a character in less than a few hours if we were spending a night just to build characters, and use them to play again next session. Making the basic chargen system Priority is a smart move, even if it does lose some flexibility.
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Glyph
post Jul 3 2013, 02:04 AM
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QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 2 2013, 05:36 PM) *
I'd be interested to see if there was a breakdown of the 'I hate SR5' crowd that was differentiated by members who started playing in SR4 vs. Members who had been around for previous editions.

I think I've seen them from both sides, though I wonder which of the two represents the dominant half.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

I played SR3, and liked it despite some problems, then played SR4, and liked it despite some problems. SR5, I may just give a pass to it. I really wanted to be excited about it, but they changed a lot of things in ways that just sucked the fun out of the game for me.
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Aaron
post Jul 3 2013, 03:10 AM
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QUOTE (DrZaius @ Jul 2 2013, 07:57 PM) *
  1. I was so desperate for new Shadowrun, I started converting Dungeon World into a Shadowrun setting. Understand; I never expected anyone to play this version; it was just something I did because I craved new Shadowrun rules so much, and felt the system would work with the setting. I require new Shadowrun rules, and thank goodness someone else has bothered to write them.

I've actually thought about doing this just for fun. Only trouble is that Dungeon World has a lot of off-the-cuff content that is spun by GM and players during play, and a concrete, established universe wouldn't really work with that approach.
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Mäx
post Jul 3 2013, 06:24 AM
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QUOTE (apple @ Jul 3 2013, 12:00 AM) *
Please read the SR4 rules again, you can only have a social dice pool modifier with a max of the natural attribute + skill. Attribute of 1 and "very little skill points" means that you can, at max, have a bonus of +2 or +3 total. Not +20.

Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character’s
combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings.

You should reread the rules your self, that limit is only for social modifiers, those are the kind of thinks listed in the table on the next page.
QUOTE (Quake @ Jul 3 2013, 12:27 AM) *
For example, Deltaware Wired Reflexes costed 1 million nuyen. Have you ever met someone that had one? Now, even with the increase, Deltaware WR is around half of that.

IIRC delta is now *4 modifier, that makes delta wired 3 876K not that much cheaper then before and for example delta wired 2 is actually more expensive then in SR4.
As an other example delta muscle toner 4 used to cost 320K and in SR% it goes up to wopping 512K.
So combining those 2 is actually more expensive in SR5.
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Critias
post Jul 3 2013, 06:28 AM
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Grade : Essence Cost Multiplier : Avail Modifier : Cost Multiplier

Alphaware, x0.8, +2, x1.2
Betaware, x0.7, +4, x1.5
Deltaware, x0.5, +8, x2.5
Used-a-ware, x1.25, -4, x0.75
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apple
post Jul 3 2013, 06:57 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 3 2013, 02:24 AM) *
You should reread the rules your self, that limit is only for social modifiers, those are the kind of thinks listed in the table on the next page.


Yes, how do think someones gets 20 bonus dices?

SYL
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RHat
post Jul 3 2013, 07:01 AM
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QUOTE (apple @ Jul 3 2013, 12:57 AM) *
Yes, how do think someones gets 20 bonus dices?

SYL


That is the rule, full stop. Whether or not you agree with the consequences is an entirely different matter - but if it weren't, I'd point out that your interpretation actually devalues Kinesics, Tailored Pheromones, Glamour Specializations, and more.

If you start trimming bonuses out of your build, you don't start with the cheaper ones.
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apple
post Jul 3 2013, 07:05 AM
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I quoted the rules, so yes, thank you for stating the obvious. I a not devaluating anything, I am pointing out an often missed rule, which apparently the opener did not know (as he stated himself ...). If I, as a GM, allow Kinesics etc under this rule or not has nothing to do with that this rule exists (and has been quoted in an argument). #

And I am quite sure that a streetsam with a charisma of 1 and "a handful of skillpoints" does not sound exactly like Kinesics- or Glamour-material, but that´s another topic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL
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apple
post Jul 3 2013, 07:24 AM
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QUOTE (Quake @ Jul 2 2013, 05:27 PM) *
For example, Deltaware Wired Reflexes costed 1 million nuyen. Have you ever met someone that had one? Now, even with the increase, Deltaware WR is around half of that. If other cyberware or bioware doesn't increase by a factor of three, it means a global rebate, still.


Regarding the lowered costs of cyberware, here is a direct quote from one of the SR5 authors:

QUOTE
Anyway if you're afraid of cyberware becoming cheaper...let me reassure you that the exact opposite has happened.


So no, more expensive cyberware of course hurts the cybermage/adept as well ... and the heavily augmented decker, rigger or streetsam even more.

SYL
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Critias
post Jul 3 2013, 07:33 AM
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QUOTE (apple @ Jul 3 2013, 02:24 AM) *
Regarding the lowered costs of cyberware, here is a direct quote from one of the SR5 authors:

FWIW, while the base cost of several augmentations has gone up (for reasons I'd love to talk about, but NDA's are, as I understand it, still in effect over our behind-the-scenes arguments and knife-fights and stuff)...because the price of custom chrome has gone down, I think that overall it's kind of a wash. Anyone who's serious about preserving their Essence score will have at least Alpha-grade 'ware across the board, and once gameplay starts (and that availability cap is lifted), I think folks will see things pretty much balance out to similar Essence costs as previous editions, as far as bang-for-the-nuyen.

It's not quite what CritiasRun would've done, but practically speaking I think it'll work out.
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Mäx
post Jul 3 2013, 09:21 AM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Jul 3 2013, 10:33 AM) *
FWIW, while the base cost of several augmentations has gone up (for reasons I'd love to talk about, but NDA's are, as I understand it, still in effect over our behind-the-scenes arguments and knife-fights and stuff)...because the price of custom chrome has gone down, I think that overall it's kind of a wash. Anyone who's serious about preserving their Essence score will have at least Alpha-grade 'ware across the board, and once gameplay starts (and that availability cap is lifted), I think folks will see things pretty much balance out to similar Essence costs as previous editions, as far as bang-for-the-nuyen.

After chargen might or might not, but in chargen you can afford less stuff then in SR4, witch is quite a nerf for mundanes.
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DrZaius
post Jul 3 2013, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE (Aaron @ Jul 2 2013, 10:10 PM) *
I've actually thought about doing this just for fun. Only trouble is that Dungeon World has a lot of off-the-cuff content that is spun by GM and players during play, and a concrete, established universe wouldn't really work with that approach.


It actually worked pretty well. I basically was able to pick and choose powers from the various classes and matched them up to an archetype. The bard became the face, the Mage became a combination of the Wizard and Cleric (with modified spells to trim down the list), the Street Samurai gained his "powers" via cyberware, which were a combination of fighter and ranger powers. Since all the classes can multiclass, they can all "take" cyberware- I hadn't figured out how I would balance the essence equation. I hadn't written the decker yet, but my plan was to make it work like magic; "the hacker does something and the doors open!" which in effect is how it would appear to other players anyways. One of the issues I had with SR4 was trying to keep up with the creativity of my players to circumvent my plans, so DW is a good system to just roll with those changes.
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Alpha Blue
post Jul 3 2013, 11:13 PM
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QUOTE (DrZaius @ Jul 3 2013, 02:57 AM) *
This is where I come out. There were many things I disliked about SR4, and hopefully SR5 will address them. (WARNING: EVIL GAME SYSTEM ABOUT TO BE DISCUSSED). I see the development of SR5 closer to DnD Next. SR3 was quirky, and cumbersome in places. SR4 was workable, but extremely difficult to parse in others (I don't care what anyone says, those matrix rules were the worst.) SR5 feels like it's trying to improve on the older systems as much as possible, borrowing from stuff that has worked in the past and expanding on it. Have they gone to far in places? Probably. I trust my players enough that we're not going to really have issues, I don't think. It's a question of trust; I'm playing with people I've known for 15 years. They're not going to have the security decker brick my cyberleg anymore than I'm going to drop a block on their head without a spot check; there's an implicit agreement to play fair.

Here were my main issues with the previous versions of Shadowrun, and how (I hope) SR5 addresses them.

  1. Character generation took way, way too long. This was much worse in SR4 than in SR3, because of the point buy/karma system. You can start a game of D&D within 20 minutes, if you're working with someone who knows the system. Introducing someone to SR4 for the first time, and it can literally take *hours* to build their character. God forbid you have more than 1 new player. This is untenable from a game standpoint- something needed to be done, and it looks like the priority system will help with that. Will this cause some builds to be more powerful than others? Absolutely. I don't care. The most important thing is if it addresses the chargen time issue; if it does, then I'm willing to make some tradeoffs.
  2. Confusing Matrix Rules. I know that the majority of people on this board "get" the matrix; but honestly, again coming from a new player perspective, they were awful. I hope they are not-awful. Google "The matrix explained", a thread on here, and explain how transparent those rules are if it is necessary to have a 30 page thread explaining the various nuances.
  3. Streamlined Meat/Astral/Matrix rules. It sounds like one of the goals of the design team was to avoid the "Decker jacks in, everyone else get pizza". Great! I know my group avoided deckers specifically for that reason.
  4. I was so desperate for new Shadowrun, I started converting Dungeon World into a Shadowrun setting. Understand; I never expected anyone to play this version; it was just something I did because I craved new Shadowrun rules so much, and felt the system would work with the setting. I require new Shadowrun rules, and thank goodness someone else has bothered to write them.

This is almost exactly my thought on the matter.
Plus clean slate with the rules once in a while is good for any group or game.
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