(Insert general warning about English being my second language.)

Hi everyone,

I've been trying to read the forums here recently, to learn more about SR5, but the aggressive talk has become pretty annoying. I understand that to some people changes taking place in 5th edition can be perceived as "scandalous", but when so few people have read the books and you try to sort through the posts to glean details here and there, it certainly is not like having the book on hands. The moderator's warning about the tone of discussion is a pretty welcome one, I think.

I would like to raise a few arguments about the SR5 changes that I think need to be kept in mind:

1. Looking at most streetsam builds I've seen, the bioware part was certainly the major component of stat bonuses and combat efficiency. Now, with the reduced cost of Alpha, Beta and Deltaware, it seems a lot easier to create biosams than before. Also, with the previous formula for Essence, it was more efficient to have half cyberware and half bioware to benefit from the rebate of the halving of the lowest of the two than having a "pure" cybersam or "pure" biosam.

2. Streetsams, no matter how high their Willpower was, would die in one shot from direct combat spells, especially the mana ones. Now that these spells have been brought down, it actually helps streetsams compete. (A few years ago, I had a character that was really min-maxed for defense, and fellow players told me it was impossible to avoid dying one shot from magic [in SR4], at least without Astral Hazing/ Arcane Arrester shenanigans. Which was almost always true.)

3. Nobody wanted to play a hacker around these parts. Without a PhD in hermeneutics or philosophy of language, the Matrix chapter of the SR4A rulebook was a mess to understand. My friend, a long-time D&D player, who has research grants in social science and awesome mathematical skills to boot, who's therefore a GOOD rulebook reader, was really unable to conceptualize how a hacker could do anything fun in combat. Hell, I have a technical degree in computer science and I didn't get how it played ingame. Sure, this could be explained, but try and convince a player to play a hacker if the chapter on the topic is a maze and there's really no incentive to understand it. I'm sorry, but the changes to decker in SR5 (AND the Matrix chapter) seem totally in line with the BIGGEST obstacle we had with using SR4A ruleset.

4. My streetsam had a tacnet, and to have a tacnet you must provide sensors to it. Most of my cyberware in SR4A was actually sensors that had to be connected in some way or another to a network. Oftentimes to the Matrix. SR5 doesn't change that. I know you could slave your gear to your PAN and skinlink (almost) each device, but the fact remained that to have a tacnet meant opening a breach for hacking. Wireless bonuses don't change much of that.

5. In my games, the Matrix is not some kind of "big Internet". It's a lot more metaphysically strong. It's almost a world in and of itself. Unfathomably complex and rich, and stuff like Google Maps doesn't even begin to give justice to that "plane of existence". The Wireless bonuses make sense for us in that context.

6. I agree that some of the Wireless bonuses I've seen stress my suspension of disbelief, but it's not worse than combat decryption in a future were quantum encryption will be available... or magic for that matter. It's actually one of the least unrealistic elements of SR5 for us in our group.

7. In our setting, which is a bit different from Shadowrun, biotech has outstrip cybertech for a long time. Also, cybertech was meant for medical purposes mostly, and regulations exist to control the use of cybertech. Obviously, having cybertech leave online traces is a big part of it. They were developed to be under the scrutiny of the corporations and states. The fact that the military is turning it off is well reflected by the loss of combat bonuses, which makes sense in a sort of tacnet way. In our setting, we consider the Matrix to "contain" a minimum of 3.5% of humanity (~800 million on 20 billion people) that are connected at all time, a lot of them hacking info, spreading it in different parts of the Matrix, and generally "helping out" in some sense, by leaving info packages everywhere. The bonuses items receive if they are connected wirelessly more-or-less reflect that.

8. The reduction in nuyen cost for upgrades in 'ware really helps streetsams close the gap in advancement, and get more oomph out of their Essence. They may start in front of Adepts a long way, but the cost of replacing 'ware was really too prohibitive. We're looking at several million nuyens.

9. The priority table is a bit too harsh on trolls, but for magical users it is also quite complicated. If you are mundane, you put your E in magic/technomancy, which gives you better choices left for the rest of your character. If you are a magical adept, and you don't pick human, where do you put your E ? I'm trying to come up with an ork magical adept, but it's really really hard. The often talked about "abusive" cybered-adept is not so easy to pull of, at least from start, when you can only get 6000 nuyen, or if you sacrifice skill points, or if your stat points are stretched out.

10. Limits fix a real problem we've had. My streetsam could, by stacking bonuses, get a 20-24 DP in Intimidation with a charisma of one, and very little skill points. Nobody would win the opposed test (most of the time). The cap at 20 for DP was an inappropriate global "fix", and the other solutions (i.e. max hits set at skill rating x2) seemed tacked on. Limits, we really like, as they make a lot more sense.


Anyhow, I just wanted to bring to attention some items that I found were important to keep in mind. I globally think SR5 will be much better than SR4/A. At least or our group.

-Frank

I don't think most people are necessarily stating the rules are bad. The problem that most people are vocalizing is that to make rules that are good and somewhat balanced the overall versimilatude of the setting and ruleset creates a significant cognitive dissonance. That's the problem. There's game systems that don't give one lick about whether or not the rules create dissonance. It's called Paranoia.

Globally, SR4, for me, meant more dissonance and suspension of disbelief, than (from what I can see) SR5 will.

/but-I-don't-have-the-book-yet

Just some quick corrections.



Cyberware cost has been increased by the factor of x3 in some cases. Just as an example:

wired 2 39000 SR4 2 11000
3 149000 SR4 3 32000
5 217000 SR4 5 100000



It had nothing to do with direct combat spells (although you are right, they could have used a small nerf) or streetsams in specific, but with being mundane and missing a second defense value (counterspell in SR4, sorcery pool in SR3, shielding etc). This has not changed ... and the "attack" will just shift to different spells (mindrape, indirect spells, spirit powers). Perhaps with higher drain, maybe. I, personally, wished for "counter spelling" becoming a mundane ability.



1) Find hidden network
2) Decrypt
3) Hacking on the fly
4) crash/edit/spoof or whatever comes to your mind
5) ???
6) Profit

I am quite sure that everyone understands that. But yes, it could have used some streamlining and better explanation and it needed the removal of extended tests (as it happened in SR5).



Wireless Bonuses changes everything because previously you had an independent online system which you could or could not use without impact on the rest of the system. It was based on how the sixth world worked. In SR5 you have wireless reaction enhancers, wireless knifes and wireless silencer. This is not a part of how the sixth world works, but a stricktly monopoly-style rule aka "roll dice, go to jail".



The lower essence cost (bioessence or cyberessence) won´t be divided by half anymore IIRC & AFAIK. It certainly comes down to the combination of the priority system distribution, race, money and build, but I would not be surprised if in the long run the mundane characters will have less opportunity to upgrade without any major increase in payment for runs. Certainly if you go back to "you get 50k ¥" then it may happen.



Please read the SR4 rules again, you can only have a social dice pool modifier with a max of the natural attribute + skill. Attribute of 1 and "very little skill points" means that you can, at max, have a bonus of +2 or +3 total. Not +20.

Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character’s
combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings.

SYL

So a guy says he's excited about some stuff, and even here folks have to argue with him and tell him he shouldn't be? Is it really so painful to, like, let someone be happy about a thing they might like, and you might not?

If some assumptions are wrong should you not correct him?

SYL

I actually did write them with numbers so people could point out if I was wrong. But even if I stand corrected (especially about social DPs in SR4A: oops!), I don't think it dismisses my main point.

For example, Deltaware Wired Reflexes costed 1 million nuyen. Have you ever met someone that had one? Now, even with the increase, Deltaware WR is around half of that. If other cyberware or bioware doesn't increase by a factor of three, it means a global rebate, still.

Also, about magic vs. streetsams: if people switch to higher draining indirect combat spells, which take armor into account, don't you think it means more survivability for streetsams? I mean, people in the magic threads have been complaining about the nerfing of damaging spells in general for days! (All the while people have been saying mages will become too powerful in other threads...)

Whatever floats your group's collective boats. However, not everyone is against what we've seen from SR5 so far out of some sort of hysteria. Neither is the nasty tone coming only from the critics; one author in particular has shown spectacularly bad form.

That said, some replies to your points:

Doesn't change a thing about essence being a more precious ressource now, and the massive problem that lowering essence cost altogether is only making cybermages better, not necessarily streetsams.


while that is a positive change, it is offset by another front where streetsams become attackable that looks very worrying - the Matrix, via security hackers. I see no viable defense against a sam simply being bricked to nonfunctionality or slammed with black IC until he's dead. If there is a certain balance, nobody is telling.


The game isn't just about combat. Besides, hackers could, in SR4, always use drones or run a TacNet. YMMV, but I see that as viable enough.


Actually, we don't know ghow SR5 will handle TacNets. And again, while most of your cyberware was wireless enabled anyway doesn't make Matrix Boni like "two internal systems need to communicate wirelessly because how cables work is a forgotten art" make any more sense.


Again, YMMV, but default Shadowrun never had the Snow Crash Matrix. It was always the Gibson Matrix, and in SR4, the Ghost in the Shell (SAC, mostly) Matrix.

[tbc]

[cont'd]


Personally, I find things that are *almost* like things I know mroe difficult to swallow than things that are way out there. It's an uncanny valley effect really. And don't get me started on SR4's de/encryption rules.


In my setting, it hasn't. As before, YMMV.


I don't really get what you're saying. First, nuyen cost of cyber has tripled in SR5 in respect to SR4, according to the writer of the gear chapter. Second, how does paying less Nuyen get a Streetsam more oomph for his Essence? Essence is a different currency altogether.


Well, then we agree that Priority isn't an optimal chargen system.


I agree here, but the implementation of Limit boni isn't very well done, from what I've seen so far. What do I need a Limit of 10 for if I have 9 dice?


I wish I could share your enthusiasm, and I hope it pays out that way for your group. I'm pretty certain it won't for mine without a couple of houserules and table-specific bugfixes.

For that I would have to check actual values (especially with splatbooks and Karma development). Compared to SR4, direct combat spells were vastly tuned down, (which of course increases the survivability of mundane characters) , but indirect combat spells were almost unused due to drain problems in SR4. Now, how drain with the new modifier will work in SR5 remains to be seen in the long run, but it was a design goal to make elemental spells much more playable. When it comes down to damage output per round, however, a streetsam with an assault rifle will be the damage king once again (depening on initiative boosters).

However, don´t forget that the -AP is based on the force and there are discussions that damage is based on the magic attribute (unconfirmed). Combined with the rumor, that for spirit and elemental attacks the damage is force x2 (again, rumor, it could be a misunderstanding, perhaps other authors can clarify that). So, no, without a second defense attribute mundane characters will still be "weak" in the area of magic defense. The spell probably will change and the it won´t happen every combat round due to drain.

I would not wonder if the next "Stunbolt" would be something like "control action" => shoot yourself in the head. However there are no infos right now on mindrape spells and how they work in SR5, so it´s all based on assumption for this part. Time will tell (and the discussion will be heavily influenced by the new street magic, augmentation and arsenal books, on how much gadgets, items, meta techniques etc change the game).



If I look at the list posted on DS for some of the "usual" ware ... I am afraid that wired reflexes is not the only ware. In the end it depens on the nuyen level. 50k per run? no problem you will have lots of upgrade opportunities. 10k per run? You could sometimes upgrade in SR4, but it will take a lot longer in SR5. Final verdict still pending of course. After all we don´t have the book.

@hermit


Lower essence is both valuable for the cybermage AND for the heavily augmented mundane, if they have enough financial resources to hit the essence 0 line (which was easily possible in SR4, even with higher grades). There is no special advantage inherent to the cybermage (except of course that they don´t need as much money to augment themselves as the streetsam, hacker or rigger. But. well, yes, that´s in the nature of the beast.


SYL

Perfectly fine with him being excited, not terribly fine with all of his points, which he presented as arguments, so responding in a polite discourse's manner isn'T anything outrageous, or did I miss something?

Quake, I know you will have a lot of fun with SR5. Your analysis looks good to me.

Let's just say, that this is a good example for the kind of behaviour that went into my decision not to buy ... just as Aaron's continous overuse of sarcasm whenever he feels the urge to defend certain things or Bull's "grumpyness" against certain nationalities which were - regardless of him having removed the questionable posting rather quickly - similarly offensive as Neurosis' attacks.

And no, no matter how earnest you guys consider yourselves when trying to apologize for stuff like that and how hypocritical it may sound when such a complaints stems from someone like me (who goes over boundaries as well regularly) it's not going to change my perception on the issue.

It depends. If the assumption you consider wrong is an opinion based on different outlooks, then No. If it is factual based on mechanical misinterpretations (like the Dice Pool error) then yes.

Frank, I share your enthusiasm. And I appreciate your effort to put a positive spin on the new edition. I think that, by and large, your assessment that SR5 will be much better for your group that SR4 will be correct.

Good luck, chummer.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

I'm looking forwards to making the "translation" from SR3. I've got two potential groups of which only one or two have ever done SR before and neither are really up on the Sixth World in general. So I get to start Fresh for everyone and teach them the Sixth World without my both intimidating and intriguing SR3 collection lurking near the table.

Start with one book and some new minds. Ohhh yeah.

I'm jumping aboard from SR 3 myself!

...I wonder if sucking old players back into the fold was part of their design decisions. Like, I wonder if I'm succumbing to some dark algorithm of old-player-predictive-behavior-analysis.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

While I may disagree with you on what points you think are better, I do agree that on the whole it will be fun. We'll all find a way to make it work how we want it to.

Of course the theoretical problem of magic users not having a power ceiling doesn't normally come into play. The problem is that a cybered character should have the ability to be stronger out of the gate for having a lower (any) ceiling and has essentially traded away his soul for this power. Instead the Mage and Adept can go toe to toe with a Sam out of char gen and outpace him forever.

A predecessor program to Horizon maybe?

And a fresh start is never a bad thing, sometimes we do bring a bit of baggage.

Plus nowadays I feel a lot more comfortable adjusting and house ruling if/when necessary if it will improve or clarify a situation.

Damnit! At this rate, they probably know I've been counting down the seconds to the PDF release, and would pay up to +25% markup for a 48 hour head start...

...Wait. What's this? An email soliciting early access? All I have to do is sign away my soul, and agree to live in the Catalyst Labs Arcology?

Hrmmmmmm... You may be on to something, Sendaz.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

It does seem there is an upswing of enthusiasm from those of us who never played SR4 rather than those who've been playing SR4 for the last few years. NERPS! I say!

Sorry?

Was busy clicking Yes, YES,YES to this early access email.

They are even coming out to pick me up!

Though now that I think about it, I didn't list a physical address so how are the---

*THUNK*

*soft dragging sounds, a door closing, then a motor starting up and a vehicle pulling away*

I'm glad that the designers for SR5 are not afraid to take a chance and make major changes.

I agree with most of the changes they have made.

I just wish I could dial them back a bit.

I was hoping the changes in SR5 would help balance things out a some between Awaken and non Awaken.
Nerfing the Direct Combat Spells helped.

But looking at the costs or ware and decks for Deckers and Street Sams, and it sure looks like we are going to be right back to where we were before.
The new things available for the awaken to spend cred on won't make up for the non awaken having to spend so much more on ware.


The only way I'm going to keep the balance between Awaken and non awaken is BACKGROUND COUNT, BACKGROUND COUNT, and more BACKGROUND COUNT.
Admittedly unless the rules have change there is background count almost everywhere.

Yes, I am quite sure that from a SR3 point of view SR5 is indeed an improvement ... speaks volumes about SR3, doesn´t it?

SYL

A minute later, I'm still grinning ear to ear.



...Ummm. Maybe? Like... that it's been out of print for close to a decade, and so it's hard to get new source material for it?

...Uhhhh, yeah. I got nothing.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Perhaps apple, but if that is the case it would say more about SR4
Look at White Wolf and the OWoD newWoD thing. Their 20th anni stuff is selling like crazy. SR5 seems to appeal to the SR3 crowd because we see things we enjoy presented in it that were taken out in SR4. I don't know that it's better as such, but new and probabley as fun.

I'm keeping a cautiously optimistic open mind towards SR5. I refuse to judge it until I have the PDF and I can give it a good read through, and then playtest some of those rules. Granted some things I've read about I DO NOT LIKE, but all I can do is judge these things I've read in isolation, without any context in the rules or in the game itself.

I personally am a little bit excited. I'm hoping the rules don't let me down, honestly. I hope it is a good product, one that will get me to pick up the game and use it with friends when I GM. If not, though, I still have a big pile of SR4 books to use.

I'd be interested to see if there was a breakdown of the 'I hate SR5' crowd that was differentiated by members who started playing in SR4 vs. Members who had been around for previous editions.

I think I've seen them from both sides, though I wonder which of the two represents the dominant half.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

I've said it in other threads, but you can put me down as a SR1-3 guy coming back for 5th edition. Rules wise at least. Fluff wise will take a while longer to see, but I hope for some improvements to the metaplot over 4th as well.

This is where I come out. There were many things I disliked about SR4, and hopefully SR5 will address them. (WARNING: EVIL GAME SYSTEM ABOUT TO BE DISCUSSED). I see the development of SR5 closer to DnD Next. SR3 was quirky, and cumbersome in places. SR4 was workable, but extremely difficult to parse in others (I don't care what anyone says, those matrix rules were the worst.) SR5 feels like it's trying to improve on the older systems as much as possible, borrowing from stuff that has worked in the past and expanding on it. Have they gone to far in places? Probably. I trust my players enough that we're not going to really have issues, I don't think. It's a question of trust; I'm playing with people I've known for 15 years. They're not going to have the security decker brick my cyberleg anymore than I'm going to drop a block on their head without a spot check; there's an implicit agreement to play fair.

Here were my main issues with the previous versions of Shadowrun, and how (I hope) SR5 addresses them.

1. Character generation took way, way too long. This was much worse in SR4 than in SR3, because of the point buy/karma system. You can start a game of D&D within 20 minutes, if you're working with someone who knows the system. Introducing someone to SR4 for the first time, and it can literally take *hours* to build their character. God forbid you have more than 1 new player. This is untenable from a game standpoint- something needed to be done, and it looks like the priority system will help with that. Will this cause some builds to be more powerful than others? Absolutely. I don't care. The most important thing is if it addresses the chargen time issue; if it does, then I'm willing to make some tradeoffs.
2. Confusing Matrix Rules. I know that the majority of people on this board "get" the matrix; but honestly, again coming from a new player perspective, they were awful. I hope they are not-awful. Google "The matrix explained", a thread on here, and explain how transparent those rules are if it is necessary to have a 30 page thread explaining the various nuances.
3. Streamlined Meat/Astral/Matrix rules. It sounds like one of the goals of the design team was to avoid the "Decker jacks in, everyone else get pizza". Great! I know my group avoided deckers specifically for that reason.
4. I was so desperate for new Shadowrun, I started converting Dungeon World into a Shadowrun setting. Understand; I never expected anyone to play this version; it was just something I did because I craved new Shadowrun rules so much, and felt the system would work with the setting. I require new Shadowrun rules, and thank goodness someone else has bothered to write them.

I agree with this. I'm one of those folks who likes to get characters just right, and I'll wring my hands and agonize over each and every decision I make. This is made worse by a cumbersome chargen system. The Priority system makes things streamlined enough that I only have to worry about getting my gear right, since the number of points for skills, attributes, and everything else are built into my priority choices.

In SR3, I once made a character in 60 minutes, right before a convention game I wanted to play in. This was because of the Priority system. There's no way I personally could build a character in an hour for an SR4 game. And I have never personally overseen a player of mine make a character in less than a few hours if we were spending a night just to build characters, and use them to play again next session. Making the basic chargen system Priority is a smart move, even if it does lose some flexibility.

I played SR3, and liked it despite some problems, then played SR4, and liked it despite some problems. SR5, I may just give a pass to it. I really wanted to be excited about it, but they changed a lot of things in ways that just sucked the fun out of the game for me.

I've actually thought about doing this just for fun. Only trouble is that Dungeon World has a lot of off-the-cuff content that is spun by GM and players during play, and a concrete, established universe wouldn't really work with that approach.

You should reread the rules your self, that limit is only for social modifiers, those are the kind of thinks listed in the table on the next page.

IIRC delta is now *4 modifier, that makes delta wired 3 876K not that much cheaper then before and for example delta wired 2 is actually more expensive then in SR4.
As an other example delta muscle toner 4 used to cost 320K and in SR% it goes up to wopping 512K.
So combining those 2 is actually more expensive in SR5.

Grade : Essence Cost Multiplier : Avail Modifier : Cost Multiplier

Alphaware, x0.8, +2, x1.2
Betaware, x0.7, +4, x1.5
Deltaware, x0.5, +8, x2.5
Used-a-ware, x1.25, -4, x0.75

Yes, how do think someones gets 20 bonus dices?

SYL

That is the rule, full stop. Whether or not you agree with the consequences is an entirely different matter - but if it weren't, I'd point out that your interpretation actually devalues Kinesics, Tailored Pheromones, Glamour Specializations, and more.

If you start trimming bonuses out of your build, you don't start with the cheaper ones.

I quoted the rules, so yes, thank you for stating the obvious. I a not devaluating anything, I am pointing out an often missed rule, which apparently the opener did not know (as he stated himself ...). If I, as a GM, allow Kinesics etc under this rule or not has nothing to do with that this rule exists (and has been quoted in an argument). #

And I am quite sure that a streetsam with a charisma of 1 and "a handful of skillpoints" does not sound exactly like Kinesics- or Glamour-material, but that´s another topic.

SYL

Regarding the lowered costs of cyberware, here is a direct quote from one of the SR5 authors:



So no, more expensive cyberware of course hurts the cybermage/adept as well ... and the heavily augmented decker, rigger or streetsam even more.

SYL

FWIW, while the base cost of several augmentations has gone up (for reasons I'd love to talk about, but NDA's are, as I understand it, still in effect over our behind-the-scenes arguments and knife-fights and stuff)...because the price of custom chrome has gone down, I think that overall it's kind of a wash. Anyone who's serious about preserving their Essence score will have at least Alpha-grade 'ware across the board, and once gameplay starts (and that availability cap is lifted), I think folks will see things pretty much balance out to similar Essence costs as previous editions, as far as bang-for-the-nuyen.

It's not quite what CritiasRun would've done, but practically speaking I think it'll work out.

After chargen might or might not, but in chargen you can afford less stuff then in SR4, witch is quite a nerf for mundanes.

It actually worked pretty well. I basically was able to pick and choose powers from the various classes and matched them up to an archetype. The bard became the face, the Mage became a combination of the Wizard and Cleric (with modified spells to trim down the list), the Street Samurai gained his "powers" via cyberware, which were a combination of fighter and ranger powers. Since all the classes can multiclass, they can all "take" cyberware- I hadn't figured out how I would balance the essence equation. I hadn't written the decker yet, but my plan was to make it work like magic; "the hacker does something and the doors open!" which in effect is how it would appear to other players anyways. One of the issues I had with SR4 was trying to keep up with the creativity of my players to circumvent my plans, so DW is a good system to just roll with those changes.

This is almost exactly my thought on the matter.
Plus clean slate with the rules once in a while is good for any group or game.