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> So I'm watching Kiss of the Dragon, with Jet Li..., On acupuncture
Voran
post Apr 26 2004, 11:49 AM
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Aside from watching Jet kick an inordinate amount of ass, what stuck with me (badum bum) was his use of acupuncture to disable or assist with his kicking of ass.

So I'm wondering, how would that play out in SR?
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Abstruse
post Apr 26 2004, 11:58 AM
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Magic of some sort, a new tradition maybe? Priority B or Aspected...maybe some kind of geas or something...it's not that hard to work out with a little playtesting and tweaking, but it does seem a bit underpowered. An adept power maybe? *shrugs* 2 PP, successful melee attack, opponent must roll Willpower against the PC's Magic or be stunned for a round? Just off the top of my head, fiddle with it.

The Abstruse One
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mfb
post Apr 26 2004, 12:03 PM
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well, there's the nerve strike physad power, in MitS. geasa it to using acupuncture needles with your unarmed attacks (the needles aren't going to do any significant damage on their own, so i'm willing to call them 'unarmed'). and, of course, there was delay damage attack, at the end.
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Voran
post Apr 26 2004, 12:04 PM
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Hmm. Ok. I'm also thinking some sorta TN based on essence. Less essence would make it more difficult...hmm actually the magic comparison isn't too far off when I continue thinking about it.


And, I'm watching Jet beat up an entire police station...heh, that's some cool stuff. Leads me to another consideration. He's using a two stick fighting style to beat the crap out of a classroom of cops training with batons. It makes me think, two weapon fighting in SR, seems kinda burdened with retarded rules.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 26 2004, 12:06 PM
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+50% skill dice is "burdened with retarded rules"?
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mfb
post Apr 26 2004, 12:09 PM
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well, there's that whole 'buy a skill or pay for an edge' thing, too. pretty complex, for something as simple as weilding two seperate weapons against multiple opponents!
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 26 2004, 12:13 PM
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Compared, for example, to the separate actions to attack, several different Feats, separate attack and damage bonuses, etc. in d20. Uh-huh...

(And don't start with me, mfb, I wouldn't know how it works in d20 if I didn't/hadn't played it.)
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Voran
post Apr 26 2004, 12:19 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
+50% skill dice is "burdened with retarded rules"?

Where's that from? It might be that I'm just working off an older set of SR3 rules. Don't recall that rule. Do you apply an offhand penalty? Doesn't really seem like it would be all that appropriate. Kinda like saying a drummer in a band takes a skill penalty cause he uses 2 drumsticks.
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mfb
post Apr 26 2004, 12:26 PM
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it's in cannon companion. you have to take a seperate skill for your off-hand weapon; you add half that skill to your main skill, when attacking. alternatively, you can take a 6 or 8 point edge that lets you add half again your main skill (so a guy with 6 skill would roll 9 dice to attack).

aw, c'mon, austere. it's been awhile since we hijacked a thread and burned it down around our own ears!
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 26 2004, 12:28 PM
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QUOTE (Voran)
Where's that from?

Page 96, Cannon Companion: "When using two weapons in melee combat, the character rolls a number of dice equal to her primary weapon's skill rating plus half the off-hand weapon's skill rating (rounded down)."

And to have a skill rating in your off-hand weapon, you either need an Off-Hand (Weapon) skill or the Ambidexterity Edge and a corresponding skill for the weapon in the primary hand. If you don't have the O-H skill or Ambidex, you can default to half QUI dice at +4 without CP.

And that's it.

[Edit]Have we ever done that, mfb? The "d20 Shadowrun" thread doesn't count, cause we didn't hijack it. I vented most of my frustrations in there, I've got no reasons to flame anymore. :)[/Edit]

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Apr 26 2004, 12:31 PM
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Voran
post Apr 26 2004, 12:58 PM
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D'oh that'll teach me to just breeze through the CC. Another side comment, since its my thread, I can be as off-tangent as I want :) You're all welcome to join....anyhoo...

The ambidexterity edge seems to have gotten hellaciously silly since SR Companion. I can understand the desire to 'balance' out akimbo gun users, but ...c'mon :)
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Voran
post Apr 26 2004, 01:37 PM
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Oh wait, now I remember why I breezed through. It made my eyes bleed when I went through the rules there. Combined with the 'new' martial arts styles/rules in CC, it gave me a headache :P That poor escrima/kali/type martial art user has to spend a bit more to be even passably competent :P
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Kakkaraun
post Apr 26 2004, 03:09 PM
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I personally think the idea of an "Off-hand weapon" skill is complete and utter bullshit. Honestly. It's not like it's a separate goddamn concept too smack someone with a pipe with your left hand or right. I say it should be a straight up penalty, reduced by the Ambi edge.
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kevyn668
post Apr 26 2004, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE
Voran Posted on Apr 26 2004, 01:37 PM
  Oh wait, now I remember why I breezed through. It made my eyes bleed when I went through the rules there. Combined with the 'new' martial arts styles/rules in CC, it gave me a headache  That poor escrima/kali/type martial art user has to spend a bit more to be even passably competent



Yep. Thats the problem with MA in the SR Comp. You can spend 8 points for a [MA]:4 and two Manuvers OR (assuming your Str is high enough) you can spend the old 6 points and get yourself a nice Brawling 6 with the option to add manuvers later, should you so choose. I usually go w/ Brawling. :)

I think most of the Manuvers are kinda lame. The Kick Attack seems like a kick in the pills to anyone that takes it. Kip-up and Groundfighting look useful and Blindfighting is a good "what if..?" Manuver to have.

Maybe I have some munchyness in me from my D&D days but (I know you guys are gonna blast me for this :noflame: ) I think most of the manuvers are so balanced that there's no real benefit/advantage to taking them.
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TinkerGnome
post Apr 26 2004, 03:28 PM
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The best maneuvers for non-serious melee characters are evasion and close combat. Evasion if you don't want to be fighting at all and close combat for those who don't have a reach weapon on hand and want to nail a troll with a polearm.

Anyway, that six point ambidexterity edge is the reason you have starting adepts with 18 dice in melee combat before pool.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Apr 26 2004, 03:48 PM
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Which they should never need to improve......

Becks is more forgiving to the MA user. Onlt barely mind
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broho_pcp
post Apr 26 2004, 07:41 PM
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killing hands, delay damage, and nerve strike would cover all you want to do with the acupuncture and pressure point skills to reflect Jet's amazing abilities.
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Kakkaraun
post Apr 26 2004, 07:43 PM
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I want the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Attack.
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Kagetenshi
post Apr 26 2004, 07:43 PM
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Whirling is always nice, too.

~J
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snowRaven
post Apr 26 2004, 11:01 PM
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QUOTE (Kakkaraun)
I personally think the idea of an "Off-hand weapon" skill is complete and utter bullshit. Honestly. It's not like it's a separate goddamn concept too smack someone with a pipe with your left hand or right. I say it should be a straight up penalty, reduced by the Ambi edge.

Not sure I agree with you, and yet I do...

I have no clue if you could be said to have a skill level in 'Clubs' or not, but I'll use both examples:

1) Assuming you have trained with one handed clubs, make this experiment: Have a friend of yours be your 'target' and use your main hand to try and hit him with a rolled up newspaper. Try and hit his head. Now do the same with your left hand and see if it's any different. Now try to do it with both hands at the same time.

2) Assuming you have no training whatsoever in Clubs, it won't matter much which hand you use in SSR rules - both skills default to Strength with the same penalty. If you use two weapons at once and don't have the off-hand skill, you default to half your Quickness and add a +4 TN instead.

Speaking personally, I am fairly profficient in fighting with a knife in my right hand (don't ask...) but put the knife in my left hand and I suck big time.

So the rules seem to work fairly well compared to reality if you don't have any skill, as well as when you do have a skill. They only fall behind slightly if you have the skill and add a second weapon but lack the offhand skill - then again, try fighting with two swords at the same time if you've never held even one before...
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Kakkaraun
post Apr 26 2004, 11:09 PM
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I've done everything you mentioned there, but my appraisal is a bit off, because I'm kind of ambidextrous. Just a wee bit.

But the thing is, yes, it's harder to hit someone with your off-hand, but it's still the same concept. IE, same skill, higher modifiers.
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Abstruse
post Apr 27 2004, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE (Kakkaraun)
I want the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Attack.

Killing Hands (D) + Delay Damage (Obvious).

The Abstruse One
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The White Dwarf
post Apr 27 2004, 06:36 PM
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Yea, it is that hard to use 2 weapons at once, let alone against two different people. Anyone with martial arts training in something like sais or nunchakus can tell you that. Jet Li is the real deal following a scripted scene, which is why its so fluid. The CC Ambidexterety edge is insanely powerful, and is priced appropriatly. When you consider people getting near 12 melee dice without any pool use, or trolls dual weilding shotguns and assault rifles, yes its powerful.

As to the original question, Im thinking geasing the nerve strike power is the closest thing, but you could come up with a few new powers if you wanted. To me it seems to better fit the "flavor" choices of a character with appropriate knowledge skills than actually adding new powers but thats me. Besides, having the actupuncture knowledge skill could be useful on a lotta things besides melee... be sorta fun idea.
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Cain
post Apr 27 2004, 07:38 PM
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One thing you can do, if your GM allows-- you can buy Killing Hands M, then geasa the difference, to purchase Killing Hands D. That way, you can use Killing Hands M anytime; but if you want to do Deadly damage on a base hit, you have to use your geasa-- talisman (acupuncture needles), incantation (Sho-RYU-ken!) or what have you. It's a good way of simulating a particularily powerful and difficult technique.
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A Clockwork Lime
post Apr 27 2004, 08:44 PM
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The problem is he didn't use them to kill people. He used them to disable 'em. It's practically what the Nerve Strike power was designed for. The only thing that needs changing is the rate at which the Quickness returns (it shouldn't be allowed to start until someone removes at least one of the needles).
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