Aside from watching Jet kick an inordinate amount of ass, what stuck with me (badum bum) was his use of acupuncture to disable or assist with his kicking of ass.
So I'm wondering, how would that play out in SR?
Full Version: So I'm watching Kiss of the Dragon, with Jet Li...
Magic of some sort, a new tradition maybe? Priority B or Aspected...maybe some kind of geas or something...it's not that hard to work out with a little playtesting and tweaking, but it does seem a bit underpowered. An adept power maybe? *shrugs* 2 PP, successful melee attack, opponent must roll Willpower against the PC's Magic or be stunned for a round? Just off the top of my head, fiddle with it.
The Abstruse One
The Abstruse One
well, there's the nerve strike physad power, in MitS. geasa it to using acupuncture needles with your unarmed attacks (the needles aren't going to do any significant damage on their own, so i'm willing to call them 'unarmed'). and, of course, there was delay damage attack, at the end.
Hmm. Ok. I'm also thinking some sorta TN based on essence. Less essence would make it more difficult...hmm actually the magic comparison isn't too far off when I continue thinking about it.
And, I'm watching Jet beat up an entire police station...heh, that's some cool stuff. Leads me to another consideration. He's using a two stick fighting style to beat the crap out of a classroom of cops training with batons. It makes me think, two weapon fighting in SR, seems kinda burdened with retarded rules.
And, I'm watching Jet beat up an entire police station...heh, that's some cool stuff. Leads me to another consideration. He's using a two stick fighting style to beat the crap out of a classroom of cops training with batons. It makes me think, two weapon fighting in SR, seems kinda burdened with retarded rules.
+50% skill dice is "burdened with retarded rules"?
well, there's that whole 'buy a skill or pay for an edge' thing, too. pretty complex, for something as simple as weilding two seperate weapons against multiple opponents!
Compared, for example, to the separate actions to attack, several different Feats, separate attack and damage bonuses, etc. in d20. Uh-huh...
(And don't start with me, mfb, I wouldn't know how it works in d20 if I didn't/hadn't played it.)
(And don't start with me, mfb, I wouldn't know how it works in d20 if I didn't/hadn't played it.)
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| +50% skill dice is "burdened with retarded rules"? |
Where's that from? It might be that I'm just working off an older set of SR3 rules. Don't recall that rule. Do you apply an offhand penalty? Doesn't really seem like it would be all that appropriate. Kinda like saying a drummer in a band takes a skill penalty cause he uses 2 drumsticks.
it's in cannon companion. you have to take a seperate skill for your off-hand weapon; you add half that skill to your main skill, when attacking. alternatively, you can take a 6 or 8 point edge that lets you add half again your main skill (so a guy with 6 skill would roll 9 dice to attack).
aw, c'mon, austere. it's been awhile since we hijacked a thread and burned it down around our own ears!
aw, c'mon, austere. it's been awhile since we hijacked a thread and burned it down around our own ears!
| QUOTE (Voran) |
| Where's that from? |
Page 96, Cannon Companion: "When using two weapons in melee combat, the character rolls a number of dice equal to her primary weapon's skill rating plus half the off-hand weapon's skill rating (rounded down)."
And to have a skill rating in your off-hand weapon, you either need an Off-Hand (Weapon) skill or the Ambidexterity Edge and a corresponding skill for the weapon in the primary hand. If you don't have the O-H skill or Ambidex, you can default to half QUI dice at +4 without CP.
And that's it.
[Edit]Have we ever done that, mfb? The "d20 Shadowrun" thread doesn't count, cause we didn't hijack it. I vented most of my frustrations in there, I've got no reasons to flame anymore.
[/Edit]
D'oh that'll teach me to just breeze through the CC. Another side comment, since its my thread, I can be as off-tangent as I want You're all welcome to join....anyhoo...
The ambidexterity edge seems to have gotten hellaciously silly since SR Companion. I can understand the desire to 'balance' out akimbo gun users, but ...c'mon
You're all welcome to join....anyhoo...The ambidexterity edge seems to have gotten hellaciously silly since SR Companion. I can understand the desire to 'balance' out akimbo gun users, but ...c'mon
Oh wait, now I remember why I breezed through. It made my eyes bleed when I went through the rules there. Combined with the 'new' martial arts styles/rules in CC, it gave me a headache 
That poor escrima/kali/type martial art user has to spend a bit more to be even passably competent
That poor escrima/kali/type martial art user has to spend a bit more to be even passably competent
I personally think the idea of an "Off-hand weapon" skill is complete and utter bullshit. Honestly. It's not like it's a separate goddamn concept too smack someone with a pipe with your left hand or right. I say it should be a straight up penalty, reduced by the Ambi edge.
| QUOTE |
| Voran Posted on Apr 26 2004, 01:37 PM Oh wait, now I remember why I breezed through. It made my eyes bleed when I went through the rules there. Combined with the 'new' martial arts styles/rules in CC, it gave me a headache That poor escrima/kali/type martial art user has to spend a bit more to be even passably competent |
Yep. Thats the problem with MA in the SR Comp. You can spend 8 points for a [MA]:4 and two Manuvers OR (assuming your Str is high enough) you can spend the old 6 points and get yourself a nice Brawling 6 with the option to add manuvers later, should you so choose. I usually go w/ Brawling.
I think most of the Manuvers are kinda lame. The Kick Attack seems like a kick in the pills to anyone that takes it. Kip-up and Groundfighting look useful and Blindfighting is a good "what if..?" Manuver to have.
Maybe I have some munchyness in me from my D&D days but (I know you guys are gonna blast me for this
) I think most of the manuvers are so balanced that there's no real benefit/advantage to taking them.
The best maneuvers for non-serious melee characters are evasion and close combat. Evasion if you don't want to be fighting at all and close combat for those who don't have a reach weapon on hand and want to nail a troll with a polearm.
Anyway, that six point ambidexterity edge is the reason you have starting adepts with 18 dice in melee combat before pool.
Anyway, that six point ambidexterity edge is the reason you have starting adepts with 18 dice in melee combat before pool.
Which they should never need to improve......
Becks is more forgiving to the MA user. Onlt barely mind
Becks is more forgiving to the MA user. Onlt barely mind
killing hands, delay damage, and nerve strike would cover all you want to do with the acupuncture and pressure point skills to reflect Jet's amazing abilities.
I want the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Attack.
Whirling is always nice, too.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kakkaraun) |
| I personally think the idea of an "Off-hand weapon" skill is complete and utter bullshit. Honestly. It's not like it's a separate goddamn concept too smack someone with a pipe with your left hand or right. I say it should be a straight up penalty, reduced by the Ambi edge. |
Not sure I agree with you, and yet I do...
I have no clue if you could be said to have a skill level in 'Clubs' or not, but I'll use both examples:
1) Assuming you have trained with one handed clubs, make this experiment: Have a friend of yours be your 'target' and use your main hand to try and hit him with a rolled up newspaper. Try and hit his head. Now do the same with your left hand and see if it's any different. Now try to do it with both hands at the same time.
2) Assuming you have no training whatsoever in Clubs, it won't matter much which hand you use in SSR rules - both skills default to Strength with the same penalty. If you use two weapons at once and don't have the off-hand skill, you default to half your Quickness and add a +4 TN instead.
Speaking personally, I am fairly profficient in fighting with a knife in my right hand (don't ask...) but put the knife in my left hand and I suck big time.
So the rules seem to work fairly well compared to reality if you don't have any skill, as well as when you do have a skill. They only fall behind slightly if you have the skill and add a second weapon but lack the offhand skill - then again, try fighting with two swords at the same time if you've never held even one before...
I've done everything you mentioned there, but my appraisal is a bit off, because I'm kind of ambidextrous. Just a wee bit.
But the thing is, yes, it's harder to hit someone with your off-hand, but it's still the same concept. IE, same skill, higher modifiers.
But the thing is, yes, it's harder to hit someone with your off-hand, but it's still the same concept. IE, same skill, higher modifiers.
| QUOTE (Kakkaraun) |
| I want the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Attack. |
Killing Hands (D) + Delay Damage (Obvious).
The Abstruse One
Yea, it is that hard to use 2 weapons at once, let alone against two different people. Anyone with martial arts training in something like sais or nunchakus can tell you that. Jet Li is the real deal following a scripted scene, which is why its so fluid. The CC Ambidexterety edge is insanely powerful, and is priced appropriatly. When you consider people getting near 12 melee dice without any pool use, or trolls dual weilding shotguns and assault rifles, yes its powerful.
As to the original question, Im thinking geasing the nerve strike power is the closest thing, but you could come up with a few new powers if you wanted. To me it seems to better fit the "flavor" choices of a character with appropriate knowledge skills than actually adding new powers but thats me. Besides, having the actupuncture knowledge skill could be useful on a lotta things besides melee... be sorta fun idea.
As to the original question, Im thinking geasing the nerve strike power is the closest thing, but you could come up with a few new powers if you wanted. To me it seems to better fit the "flavor" choices of a character with appropriate knowledge skills than actually adding new powers but thats me. Besides, having the actupuncture knowledge skill could be useful on a lotta things besides melee... be sorta fun idea.
One thing you can do, if your GM allows-- you can buy Killing Hands M, then geasa the difference, to purchase Killing Hands D. That way, you can use Killing Hands M anytime; but if you want to do Deadly damage on a base hit, you have to use your geasa-- talisman (acupuncture needles), incantation (Sho-RYU-ken!) or what have you. It's a good way of simulating a particularily powerful and difficult technique.
The problem is he didn't use them to kill people. He used them to disable 'em. It's practically what the Nerve Strike power was designed for. The only thing that needs changing is the rate at which the Quickness returns (it shouldn't be allowed to start until someone removes at least one of the needles).
Obviously he could kill with them, he just decided not to. Except with the Villain.
You are certainly correct that the main point of the whole acupuncture thing seemed to be taking someone out without causing significant physical damage.
You are certainly correct that the main point of the whole acupuncture thing seemed to be taking someone out without causing significant physical damage.
| QUOTE (Abstruse) | ||
Killing Hands (D) + Delay Damage (Obvious). The Abstruse One |
Well, yeah. But still.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| The problem is he didn't use them to kill people. He used them to disable 'em. It's practically what the Nerve Strike power was designed for. The only thing that needs changing is the rate at which the Quickness returns (it shouldn't be allowed to start until someone removes at least one of the needles). |
Maybe you could get your GM to accept that as an "Anti-Geas" on the power. It costs the same as normal, has the geas that it requires needles, but also has the bonus ability of lasting until the needles are removed.
Not a bad idea.
As long as you don't have one of those "IF IT'S NOT CANON, IT... IS... BLASPHEMY" GMs.
As long as you don't have one of those "IF IT'S NOT CANON, IT... IS... BLASPHEMY" GMs.
ok I never have understood this no matter how many times I read it in CC.
If I have abidexterity edge at 8 and pistols 6 then when I attack I can attack how many times? How many shots from each hand with no + in TN?
So with my main hand I roll 6 dice? Then roll 9 with my off hand?
I'm completely lost even though it's been explained on this board at least 3342342 times.
If I have abidexterity edge at 8 and pistols 6 then when I attack I can attack how many times? How many shots from each hand with no + in TN?
So with my main hand I roll 6 dice? Then roll 9 with my off hand?
I'm completely lost even though it's been explained on this board at least 3342342 times.
With or without Ambidexterity, any standard character can shoot a pair of pistols twice per Simple Action; one in each hand. Doing so imposes a +2/+2 penalty. So in one Initiative Pass, you can fire a pistol in SA or BF mode up to four times.
Your skill level has no bearing on that and Ambidexterity lowers that penalty. Either way, you're forbidden from using targeting devices when doing so.
Your skill level has no bearing on that and Ambidexterity lowers that penalty. Either way, you're forbidden from using targeting devices when doing so.
ok I understand that part. Now what happens with my Edged Weapons skill if i dual wield?
Thanks by the way.
Thanks by the way.
If you've got Ambidexterity 6 or 8, you add half your skill (rounded down, IIRC) to your test, so Edged 6 would be 9 dice. If you don't have ambi 6+, then you'll need an off-hand weapons skill to take advantage of it; in that case, you'd add half the off-hand skill to your test.
~J
~J
Note that you can still default while doing that. If defaulting to the melee skill, you still gain +50% dice but suffer a +2 TN penalty on the attack. If defaulting to an Attribute, you also get +50% dice but a +4 TN penalty.
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