Street Samurai, Now that we have the book... Options

[Ricochet]

Hmm, say about the Den what you like, but they can do Maths.
What about skillwires?
Massive Price Increase for something every wageslave is more or less expected to have?
And you need a skilljack too?
And with the new skill limit of 12 . . in earlier versions of SR, Essence-Cost went up with level.
So how much essence does a rating 12 skillwire cost? Anybody have the numbers on hand?
In terms of Nuyen, i think they ratingx20k, so 20x12=240k for Skillwires Rating 12.
And Skilljack costs 20k per rating too? so you need a rating 12 skilljack to boot? for another 240k?
so 480k for that? or does the skillwire not go up to rating 12 at all?

Skillwires only go to 6. (p 456)

[Stahlseele]

Ah.
So they suck even more for more money.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Qi Foci? Sorta neet, I guess... Course, Not my bag of tea, really. *shrug*
In SR4A, Reflexes were 1.5 (Level 1), 2.5 (Level 2), 4 (Level 3); which were all subject to Geasa and Way cost reductions (with the appropriate Way). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Yep, sure sounds that way. I agree that it is unfortunate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Had a Typo. Meant in third edition Improved Reflexes cost 5 points.

But yeeesh. I missed 4th edition, so maybe I'm just getting Edition-shock, here.

Did Samurai primarily take this hit in 5th edition? Or is this a continuing iteration of getting beat down from 4th edition?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Makki]

from reading the rules for Initiative, I get the feeling, that high level Initiative Enhancement are less necessary than they were in 4th. Almost everyone can get a 2nd pass, but for your 3rd pass the investment is pretty heavy.
I thnk it's a good thing. We will see more 2 IP chars which means more room for variety for pther stuff.

[Seerow]

So I heard that money rewards have been standardized, and they're almost universally low.

Any details on that, and how that feeds into the Street Sam getting kicked in the pants issue even further?

[Sendaz]

Any details on that, and how that feeds into the Street Sam getting kicked in the pants issue even further?

Under the new pay scale Sammies can only afford Bermuda Shorts, no more pants. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Aaron]

I hope you fixed that in the errata discussion, since I just made one up for that entry when I was compiling things.

Nah. Somebody else said they'd do it, so why curb their enthusiasm? It's not like I've got special claim or something.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Sure. Summary from Page 375, Run Rewards:

To calculate, start with base cost of 3k (May be negotiated up and down in increments of 100). Then begin to calculate modifiers to that total.

First, take the highest opposing dice pool of the opposition and divide by 4. (This is the total of the highest active skill + attribute of any NPC that will directly opposing the players.)

Then add +1 for any of the following: Runners outnumbered 3 to 1, or Runners outnumbered 2:1 by Professional Rating 4 BOCs. Runners faced a pack of at least six critters. Runers encountered at least three different spirits (beside watchers). Runners accomplished task with impressive speed/subtlety. Risk of public exposure. Or Job brings runners into notably dangerous element of sixth world, such as, but not limited to, Red Samurai, Mutsuhama Zero Zone, etc.

Once all multipliers are calculated, multiply it by the base run payout, then apply a final modifier:

Increase: 0% for standard run
Increase: 10-20% for run that makes you a cold hearted bastard
Decrease: 10 - 20% for a run that gives you warm fuzzies, and saves fluffy animals.

The final amount is the payout per player.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I just built a character that has 2 obvious cyberarms, 2 obvious cyberlegs, an obvious cybertorso, and an obvious cyberskull, all alphaware, with S+3 and A+3 in each of the limbs, and 2 armor in the Skull and Torso.

Built as an Ork, he's got 9 Body, 6 Agility and Strength from the limbs, R6 hydraulic jacks, cyber-implant heavy pistols in each arm, 16 armor (with an armor jacket and helmet) and 19 boxes on the Physical track.

Sure he's only got 0.84 Essence, which is enough to cram in a Rating 2 (alphaware) Synaptic Booster if he ever gets the cash..

Sounds similar to the Full Replacement I made in SR4A.

[BlackJaw]

So, now that we've got the book, I'm curious. Just what in the world are starting Street Samurai supposed to spend their money on? With the availability cap at 12 per the rules, you cannot buy :

Wired Reflexes above Rating 2
Titanium Bone Lacing
Reaction Enhancers above 2
Cyberskulls
Skillwires above 3
Dermal plating above 3
Syperthyroid

Not that this helps much, but you can buy Used ware, which is 25% cheaper but uses up 25% more essence... and lowers availability by 4. Note that Used is now a category isntead of a modifier. You can't buy Used Alphaware, it's all just "used" if it isn't new. p. 451 "Cyberware and bioware implants are available in five distinct grades: standard, alphaware, betaware, deltaware, and used. Only standard, alphaware, and used implants are available for purchase at character creation." The description for Cultured Bioware still seems to imply, without outright saying, that you can't get Used Cultured ware because it all has to be custom to your character. Also, some things are still listed in Basic Bioware that should really be Cultured: For example: How is bone density not something that needs to be tailored to an individual person? How can I get used bone density? Are you replacing my skeleton with someone else? I have similar issues how Enhanced Articulation is described.

Availability for various things your restricted from getting new:
Used Titanium Bone Lacing (Av 12r)
Used Reaction Enhancers 3 (max) (Av 11r)
Used Cyberskulls (Av 12)
Used Skillwires 4 (the max under sr4) (Av 12)
Used Dermal plating 4 (Av 12r)
Used Muscle Replacement 3 (Av 11r)
Used? Bone Density Augmentation 4 (max) (Av 12)
Used Muscle Augmentation 3 (Av 11r)
Used Muscle Toner 3 (Av 11r)
Used Orthoskin 4 (Max) (Av 12r)
Used Symbiotes 3 (Av 11r)
Used Cyberlimb: Torso with 4 points dived between Customized Agility and Strength (Av 12)

Note: Edited post to include torso. There is a lot of other ware that could go on this list too but I'm not going to work it all out.

[Seerow]

So top end mission reward, give an opposed 30 dicepool and gets a 7. If you throw in every other modifier listed, you get as many as an extra 8. Makes for a total multiplier of x15. Figure a net 4 successes on negotiation, for 3400. So your absolute top end mission payout is 51,000, for a mission that will kill most groups...

Yeah, that's really sad.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure. Summary from Page 375, Run Rewards:

To calculate, start with base cost of 3k (May be negotiated up and down in increments of 100). Then begin to calculate modifiers to that total.

First, take the highest opposing dice pool of the opposition and divide by 4. (This is the total of the highest active skill + attribute of any NPC that will directly opposing the players.)

Then add +1 for any of the following: Runners outnumbered 3 to 1, or Runners outnumbered 2:1 by Professional Rating 4 BOCs. Runners faced a pack of at least six critters. Runers encountered at least three different spirits (beside watchers). Runners accomplished task with impressive speed/subtlety. Risk of public exposure. Or Job brings runners into notably dangerous element of sixth world, such as, but not limited to, Red Samurai, Mutsuhama Zero Zone, etc.

Once all multipliers are calculated, multiply it by the base run payout, then apply a final modifier:

Increase: 0% for standard run
Increase: 10-20% for run that makes you a cold hearted bastard
Decrease: 10 - 20% for a run that gives you warm fuzzies, and saves fluffy animals.

The final amount is the payout per player.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

THAT.... Sounds completely Dumb. *shrug*

[Epicedion]

So top end mission reward, give an opposed 30 dicepool and gets a 7. If you throw in every other modifier listed, you get as many as an extra 8. Makes for a total multiplier of x15. Figure a net 4 successes on negotiation, for 3400. So your absolute top end mission payout is 51,000, for a mission that will kill most groups...

Yeah, that's really sad.

51,000 per runner seems like a lot. I don't often send groups on runs that net them 255,000 nuyen.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

51,000 per runner seems like a lot. I don't often send groups on runs that net them 255,000 nuyen.

It really isn't... We have had runs that netted us more than that, individually, but they have been few and far between.
Hell, the Zero Zone we hit destroyed multiple vehicles, many Drones, expended HUGE amounts of preparatory resources, and cost us a LOT of Time (more than a year). We SPENT more than 250,000 Nuyen prepping for that run, so only netting the paltry 51,000 detailed above would have been a non-starter

[Seerow]

51,000 per runner seems like a lot. I don't often send groups on runs that net them 255,000 nuyen.

51,000 per runner is a nice chunk of change, but look at what you need to accomplish to get that:

-Face an opponent with at least 30 dicepool
-Take on 3 to 1 odds
-Take on 2 to 1 odds against prof rating 4 group
-Take on 6 critters
-Take on 3 spirits
-Risk public exposure
-Take on the Red Samurai or similar group
-Do it all with extreme speed/subtlety


That's a pretty tall order for an amount of money that most likely won't even get your street sam a cyber upgrade.

[Epicedion]

Well it used to be something like 3x(# of runners)x(avg lifestyle cost), so a group of 5 Low lifestyle runners would get like 30,000 nuyen.

[Stahlseele]

Which is more than half of what the maximum payment you can get from that calculation is.
while the ware prices have been multiplied by . . what . . 10 for basica?

[Epicedion]

Anyway, what I actually wanted to say here re: Wireless Reflexes, Reaction Enhancers, Synaptic Boosters, etc:

You can come out of chargen with WR 2 and RE 3 (used) for under 200,000 nuyen, stacking to +5 Reaction and +2 initiative dice. Compared to Synaptic Booster 2, at about the same price, for +2 Reaction and +2 initiative dice, this is a pretty good deal, though you're spending scads of Essence.

Reading between the lines, since Cultured Bioware has to be tailor made to the individual, what this also means is that if you ever want to upgrade the Synaptic Booster to 3, you have to completely ditch the old implant. There's no upgrade available, and you can't sell the part back to recoup any of the investment.

[Epicedion]

Which is more than half of what the maximum payment you can get from that calculation is.
while the ware prices have been multiplied by . . what . . 10 for basica?

Uh, no, that's 30,000 to divide amongst a team of 5. Or 6,000 per person.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well it used to be something like 3x(# of runners)x(avg lifestyle cost), so a group of 5 Low lifestyle runners would get like 30,000 nuyen.

Pay for Jobs has always been an issue. Unfortunately, if you can make more money by jacking a few cars over the course of a Month for little to no risk, your Shadowrunners will become Car Thieves. If you want quality, High-End Shadowrunners, You MUST pay for them.

In the Barrens, you can probably hire a Street Level Assassin for a chump target for a couple thousand bucks. To take out someone of Damien Knight' Status, you would be looking at Millions, Minimum. Are you really going to trust that the Barrens 6th Street Irregulars are going to be capable of hitting the Zero Zone for the Multi-Billion Nuyen Prototype? Are you willing to bet next year's production schedule on that decision?

That is the problem. You do not hire bargain basement operatives for the Big Scores. You need to pay for the expertise. If you don't, then you should not be surprised when they are eliminated before they even make it onto the premises of the target.

[Lantzer]

Also, some things are still listed in Basic Bioware that should really be Cultured: For example: How is bone density not something that needs to be tailored to an individual person? How can I get used bone density? Are you replacing my skeleton with someone else? I have similar issues how Enhanced Articulation is described.

list deleted

To me, the Used category is more than just pre-owned ware. It's any ware that is cheap and poorly suited to you for whatever reason. It could be brand new, but produced by cut-rate unlicensed small time operators, like Amazing Andy's Ratburgers and Bodyshop in Redmond. Or it could be high-quality brand new ware, but it "fell off the truck" and you are not the intended recipient that it was customized for.

[Stahlseele]

Uh, no, that's 30,000 to divide amongst a team of 5. Or 6,000 per person.

that only makes it worse.

[Seerow]

Well it used to be something like 3x(# of runners)x(avg lifestyle cost), so a group of 5 Low lifestyle runners would get like 30,000 nuyen.

Yes, but that would have been the average/low end run. A high end group under that same formula would have gotten what, 1.5mil?

[Epicedion]

that only makes it worse.

Yes, but that would have been the average/low end run. A high end group under that same formula would have gotten what, 1.5mil?

This was under SR3 I think (it's buried 'somewhere' in the core book, like every other rule in SR3). Probably classified under "most unused rule ever."

Pay for Jobs has always been an issue. Unfortunately, if you can make more money by jacking a few cars over the course of a Month for little to no risk, your Shadowrunners will become Car Thieves. If you want quality, High-End Shadowrunners, You MUST pay for them.

In the Barrens, you can probably hire a Street Level Assassin for a chump target for a couple thousand bucks. To take out someone of Damien Knight' Status, you would be looking at Millions, Minimum. Are you really going to trust that the Barrens 6th Street Irregulars are going to be capable of hitting the Zero Zone for the Multi-Billion Nuyen Prototype? Are you willing to bet next year's production schedule on that decision?

That is the problem. You do not hire bargain basement operatives for the Big Scores. You need to pay for the expertise. If you don't, then you should not be surprised when they are eliminated before they even make it onto the premises of the target.

Most teams aren't going to be doing multi-billion nuyen prototype jobs.

I actually came up with a formula (this was for SR3 so it's tricky and won't translate well) that followed a team's Professionalism, Notoriety, Anonymity, and Heat to come up with a list of offered runs and their values.

Boiled down (it's several pages), based on a roll for a time period the team is offered a number of jobs of Rating 1-4, with the base payout of the run being

1 - 5,000
2 - 15,000
3 - 50,000
4 - 100,000

This would then be modified by the job type. So my team of Professionalism 8 Notoriety 2 runners offered a Rating 4 Wetwork mission would get the base 100,000 + (Professionalism+Notoriety)x500x(Rating) -- or 120,000. Then this would be again modified by another roll to vary it by a percent based on Professionalism and Heat, Xd6 percent in one direction or another. My team would probably bump it up by about 7%, making the base pay actually 128,400 nuyen.

Then the team's negotiator would be able to either shift that pay up by 2% per net success in an opposed test with the Johnson (up to 10%) or get 10% (per net success) of the amount up front (up to 50%).

Now I never carried this chart forward to my intended 6 ratings because my team started street-level and Rating 3 or 4 was intended to represent an actual normal run (higher rating = harder job / more complications). Rating 1 jobs were mostly mercenary work or smash-and-grabs, like guarding a truck or stealing a car.

EDIT: Note, this is extraordinarily crunchy and could probably be simplified. It was entirely behind-the-scenes and a component of a Totally Random Jobs system I built to model how often Runners got offered jobs, what kind of jobs they were offered, and how they needed to spend their downtime to acquire stuff, lay low, drum up work, etc.

[Remnar]

Under the new pay scale Sammies can only afford Bermuda Shorts, no more pants. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Makes me think of a samurai I used to play back in the day in the... either Caribleague or South China Sea. He only wore shorts, sandals and loud Aloha shirts (somewhat modeled after Mugen from Samurai Champloo).

The synthetic cyberlegs made shorts and sandals make more sense.

So I've been trying to concoct a Samurai/Decker (my favorite "archetype") and mostly I'm seeing that my "good" DPs are like .. 12-14? Am I totally doing it wrong, or were they not kidding about non-crazy DPs to start characters.

Side note, getting enough skills for combat AND decking is definately trickier in 5th thus far.