House Rule: Wired Reflexes cost essence == Power Point Costs, ...increasing appeal of Wired Reflexes Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

I'm looking for simple to implement house rules that increase the viability of Samurai, with minimal unintended consequences.

Historically, Wired Reflexes and the Adept Improved Reflexes had identical costs. Somewhere along the lines, that changed, lowering Adept Improved reflex costs relative to Wired Reflexes. Would anchoring Wired Reflexes to the new costs of Improved Reflexes make sense as a rule to enhance the viability of Samurai?

It would:

* Create Incentives for Wired Reflexes over Synaptic Accelerators
* Improve a historic staple of Samurai Core Builds
* Bring basic Samurai building blocks in line w/ their Awakened Counterparts
* Be easy to implement, and feel intuitive

EDIT: Hard numbers for this proposal are as follows: Move Wired Reflexes from a Cost of 2, 3, 5 to instead match Improved Reflex costs of 1.5, 2.5, 3.5

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Udoshi]

I'm looking for simple to implement house rules that increase the viability of Samurai, with minimal unintended consequences.

Decrease the essence cost, or allow betaware at start(anyone with hospital access can get it, including people with docwagon), and allow adapsin at the start.

Should do the trick.

Or perhaps re-calculate wired reflexes cost compared to move-by-wire minus the extras.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Decrease the essence cost, or allow betaware at start(anyone with hospital access can get it, including people with docwagon), and allow adapsin at the start.

The reason I like the essence decrease route is because there's already like years of historical precedence for the two of those items (Cyberware and Physical Adept Power) having identical costs.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Sendaz]

Your statement that historically the cost of adept reflexes and wireless reflexes being same in cost is not entirely accurate.

Back in SR2, Adepts actually paid MORE for the abilities at time. They followed a 1/4/6 progression versus the sammie's 2/3/5. so they got the first boost cheaper but paid dearly afterwards.

Plus I would expect some errata to come out about the adapt level 3 being actually 4.5 and not the 3.5. seeing as the other two abilities are only 0.5 below the others. To allow the best version get such a low price seems suspect.

So do not go chomping at the bit hoping to shave off 1.5 essence by campaigning for a probable error (gasp.... an error HERE.. surely I jest) just yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Your statement that historically the cost of adept reflexes and wireless reflexes being same in cost is not entirely accurate.

Back in SR2, Adepts actually paid MORE for the abilities at time. They followed a 1/4/6 progression versus the sammie's 2/3/5. so they got the first boost cheaper but paid dearly afterwards.

Good catch, and point taken. Years of historical precedence of Wires having effectively an equal to-or-lesser cost. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Plus I would expect some errata to come out about the adapt level 3 being actually 4.5 and not the 3.5. seeing as the other two abilities are only 0.5 below the others. To allow the best version get such a low price seems suspect.

So do not go chomping at the bit hoping to shave off 1.5 essence by campaigning for a probable error (gasp.... an error HERE.. surely I jest) just yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That price isn't just a carry over from SR4A?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That price isn't just a carry over from SR4A?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

It is carrying over... Sendaz is actually wrong on that. In SR4A, Increased Reflexes cost 1.5, 2.5, 4 in pp.
Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

It is carrying over... Sendaz is actually wrong on that. In SR4A, Increased Reflexes cost 1.5, 2.5, 4 in pp.
Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So carrying over with a slight improvement in this edition, then.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Sendaz]

It is carrying over... Sendaz is actually wrong on that. In SR4A, Increased Reflexes cost 1.5, 2.5, 4 in pp.
Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

yep.. damn my cheapness in not getting SR4A (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Elfenlied]

Personally, I believe the Nuyen price on Wires need to be drastically decreased to create an incentive to use them. I'm against lowering the essence cost, with higher grade ware being more readily available (just not at chargen, suck it up already!).

Plus I would expect some errata to come out about the adapt level 3 being actually 4.5 and not the 3.5. seeing as the other two abilities are only 0.5 below the others. To allow the best version get such a low price seems suspect.

Do note that Adepts do not have the option of purchasing Delta grade powers, and increasing their attributes is prohibitively expensive compared to Ware.

[binarywraith]

Just revise the PP cost upwards. The essence cost and availability of wired is already balanced against the bioware option to restrict augmented characters to a maximum +2d6 initiative boost in character creation, the same should apply to Adepts to keep things level.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Do note that Adepts do not have the option of purchasing Delta grade powers, and increasing their attributes is prohibitively expensive compared to Ware.

Not really quite true... With Geasa and Way Discounts (Assuming they cross over to 5th, and I expect that they will), you can potentially net a 50% savings on PP Costs.

[Seerow]

Do note that Adepts do not have the option of purchasing Delta grade powers, and increasing their attributes is prohibitively expensive compared to Ware.

Adepts can buy Qi foci and gain PP from initiations. They don't ONLY improve from boosting magic.

And frankly, given the new standardized monetary rewards? I'd bet a character will be able to afford boosting their magic several points long before getting any delta ware.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Just revise the PP cost upwards. The essence cost and availability of wired is already balanced against the bioware option to restrict augmented characters to a maximum +2d6 initiative boost in character creation, the same should apply to Adepts to keep things level.

No they are not, they aren't balnced in the slightest. Any time cyber is more than x2 the essence cost the balnce is way way off. Bioware is not only cheaper in essence it is also much harder to detect making it actually far more powerful than its relatively msall extra cost would indicate. Maybe if cyber was 2 to 3 times more powerful(which would make a lot of sense as machine has fewer limits) then it could justify the ridic increase in essence cost, but as is youd have to epic suck at optimization to ever take wired reflexes in SR5.

[Elfenlied]

Not really quite true... With Geasa and Way Discounts (Assuming they cross over to 5th, and I expect that they will), you can potentially net a 50% savings on PP Costs.

Both of which are optional rules, and not available in Shadowrun missions. Furthermore, even the most lenient of DMs I've met will only allow one or the other, not both in combinatio.n

Adepts can buy Qi foci and gain PP from initiations. They don't ONLY improve from boosting magic.

And frankly, given the new standardized monetary rewards? I'd bet a character will be able to afford boosting their magic several points long before getting any delta ware.

Qi Foci require PPx4 in Rating, and with the new, lowered Focus addiction thresholds (in SR4, it used to be Magic*2, now it's Magic), you're very likely to get addicted. Furthermore, Foci cannot be upgraded, so Awakened will likely save up to buy the biggest Focus they can afford, since they pay Karma to bind these.

If they nerf Improved Reflexes to cost the same as Wired Reflexes, the Adept is in the same boat as the Sam: get Synaptic Boosters. Aka the way it was in SR4. I agree the monetary rewards as written are too low, but if those get fixed, there's no reason to touch Adepts for now.

I was really looking forward to having Adepts without ware perform as well as the Streetsam out of chargen. SR4 has really made me sick of all those augmented Adepts.

[Werewindlefr]

The reason I like the essence decrease route is because there's already like years of historical precedence for the two of those items (Cyberware and Physical Adept Power) having identical costs.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

IT actuallly makes a lot more sense to have wired reflexes be cheaper essence-wise than the Adept power is power points-wise. Because technology improves, and yesteryear's betaware is today's bargain bin. In fact, a few other items need essence or nuyen repricing (I'm looking at you, muscle replacements).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Both of which are optional rules, and not available in Shadowrun missions. Furthermore, even the most lenient of DMs I've met will only allow one or the other, not both in combination.

We allow both... So there you go, you know someone that allows them in combination. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Not as powerful as it seems, though. Especially if you take a Geas that actually means something (Which we do pay attention to). For me, I take the Geas on my entire power set, and I usually take a Geas that makes sense and matters in play. Can't tell you how often my Oni Ninja broke Geas because he just could not stop everything to perform his 30-Minute long ritual to the Kami, at Dusk twilight, for one reason or another. Of course, it helps to have a character build that can go without the Magic from time to time.

[Shinobi Killfist]

IT actuallly makes a lot more sense to have wired reflexes be cheaper essence-wise than the Adept power is power points-wise. Because technology improves, and yesteryear's betaware is today's bargain bin. In fact, a few other items need essence or nuyen repricing (I'm looking at you, muscle replacements).

Sure, and magic levels rise which can justify PP cost reductions. On the SR4 boards I said I'd like wired to be 1,2,3 essence. They are not cheaper money wise than the bio version and there only real benefit is if they go wireless and yet they are much more detectable. Heck halve the monetary cost and make them 1,2,3 essence and they are kind of balanced with the bio version.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure, and magic levels rise which can justify PP cost reductions. On the SR4 boards I said I'd like wired to be 1,2,3 essence. They are not cheaper money wise than the bio version and there only real benefit is if they go wireless and yet they are much more detectable. Heck halve the monetary cost and make them 1,2,3 essence and they are kind of balanced with the bio version.

I could get behind 1/2/3 Essence Costs with SR4A Nuyen Costs. That would indeed make me very happy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Werewindlefr]

Sure, and magic levels rise which can justify PP cost reductions. On the SR4 boards I said I'd like wired to be 1,2,3 essence. They are not cheaper money wise than the bio version and there only real benefit is if they go wireless and yet they are much more detectable. Heck halve the monetary cost and make them 1,2,3 essence and they are kind of balanced with the bio version.

Can Bioware (synaptic booster, in particular) have grades in SR5? It's a bit unclear.

Regardless, no, they wouldn't be balanced at 1 essence in my estimation, as even with the base price of WR1, the deltaware version would be exactly as essence and nuyen-costly as synpatic boosters, but with the stacking advantage added. The Rating 2/3 would be more expensive in Deltaware than the Synpatic Booster in basic grade.

I think I'm going to make them 1.5/2.5/4 with a heavy nuyen discount (20k/50k/100k). That way, Cyberware is cheaper, even in Deltaware, but more expensive in essence (but much less so than before).

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Qi Foci require PPx4 in Rating, and with the new, lowered Focus addiction thresholds (in SR4, it used to be Magic*2, now it's Magic), you're very likely to get addicted. Furthermore, Foci cannot be upgraded, so Awakened will likely save up to buy the biggest Focus they can afford, since they pay Karma to bind these.

If they nerf Improved Reflexes to cost the same as Wired Reflexes, the Adept is in the same boat as the Sam: get Synaptic Boosters. Aka the way it was in SR4. I agree the monetary rewards as written are too low, but if those get fixed, there's no reason to touch Adepts for now.

I was really looking forward to having Adepts without ware perform as well as the Streetsam out of chargen. SR4 has really made me sick of all those augmented Adepts.

I think that Adepts appear to be in a good place right now, for the most part. It really looks like it's possible to play an unaugmented Adept. I fully support that design goal.

The above proposal is not about nerfing Adepts relative to everyone else, it's about improving Samurai relative to everyone else.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Shinobi Killfist]

Can Bioware (synaptic booster, in particular) have grades in SR5? It's a bit unclear.

Regardless, no, they wouldn't be balanced at 1 essence in my estimation, as even with the base price of WR1, the deltaware version would be exactly as essence and nuyen-costly as synpatic boosters, but with the stacking advantage added. The Rating 2/3 would be more expensive in Deltaware than the Synpatic Booster in basic grade.

I think I'm going to make them 1.5/2.5/4 with a heavy nuyen discount (20k/50k/100k). That way, Cyberware is cheaper, even in Deltaware, but more expensive in essence (but much less so than before).

Stacking advantage when you blow more essence and money and go wireless vs not detectable by a cyberscanner and available at char gen(only place you have 100,000+ on hand to blow). Synaptic booster still looks better to me.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I think that Adepts appear to be in a good place right now, for the most part. It really looks like it's possible to play an unaugmented Adept. I fully support that design goal.

The above proposal is not about nerfing Adepts relative to everyone else, it's about improving Samurai relative to everyone else.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Yeah pure adepts look decent now. Though I think most combat would still go for muscle toner in the long run. Attributes are just so much better than skills passing up on 4 dice in every agility skill is pretty damn hard. If attribute bost was a free action that would be more viable, at the simple action level it is viable for ranged combat adepts, at complex it just isn;t that viable. Giving up a pass makes it almsot a wash and if I am paying for it I want more than a wash.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Yeah pure adepts look decent now. Though I think most combat would still go for muscle toner in the long run. Attributes are just so much better than skills passing up on 4 dice in every agility skill is pretty damn hard. If attribute bost was a free action that would be more viable, at the simple action level it is viable for ranged combat adepts, at complex it just isn;t that viable. Giving up a pass makes it almsot a wash and if I am paying for it I want more than a wash.

Well... it is a simple action, not a complex action, so there's that. Keeps the door open for Ranged Combat Adepts. And since melee combat Adepts have other means of increasing their damage output, they probably won't be as concerned with an Attribute boost.

Which is all probably okay. They've got a number of neat tricks, a number of which are non-duplicated by their Samurai Counterparts, that they can both contribute in similar areas without tripping all over one another.

So yeah, I agree with you. They look decent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Back to Wires real quick -- My biggest concern here is... Cybermages. What's the impact of lowering Wired Reflexes to match Improved Reflexes. Are we going to see a bunch of Mages walking around with them? Or, given that Synaptic Accelerators are already the more essence friendly solution, is that a non-concern?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Can Bioware (synaptic booster, in particular) have grades in SR5? It's a bit unclear.

Of course they can...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well... it is a simple action, not a complex action, so there's that. Keeps the door open for Ranged Combat Adepts. And since melee combat Adepts have other means of increasing their damage output, they probably won't be as concerned with an Attribute boost.

Which is all probably okay. They've got a number of neat tricks, a number of which are non-duplicated by their Samurai Counterparts, that they can both contribute in similar areas without tripping all over one another.

So yeah, I agree with you. They look decent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Back to Wires real quick -- My biggest concern here is... Cybermages. What's the impact of lowering Wired Reflexes to match Improved Reflexes. Are we going to see a bunch of Mages walking around with them? Or, given that Synaptic Accelerators are already the more essence friendly solution, is that a non-concern?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Our Current Beastly Combat Mage (Magic 6, 6 Initiate Grades) has 3 Points of ware in him. Never seamed all that bad, since he could have done the same thing with Magic for cheaper (and been far more powerful than he currently is. *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)