So... Technomancers, What's going on? Options

[RHat]

So, let's rundown the effective changes to Technomancers in SR5:

- No longer capable of any form of rigging without submersion
- Rather than being able to do everything that mundanes can do on the Matrix without significant investment (in some ways, I understand this - but the specific implementation has issues)
- Able to get around the Overwatch Score in the short term (via Resonance Actions), but incapable of monitoring their own Overwatch Score without simultaneously increasing Overwatch Score
- Went from being incredibly flexible (which was, in a lot of ways, their major advanatage) to being LESS flexible than mundanes, because they cannot alter their deck attribute layouts.
- Sprites now immediately begin accumulating Overwatch Score. I mean, what the FUCK?! First, sprites already had a hard time limit. Second, this means that there's no such thing as a legit technomancer, which you could not get all of the Big 10 to sign on for (a couple of them use technomancers too much for that). Third, what happens if the sprite drops out of the normal Matrix to go back to the Resonance? And if that's not possible anymore, why the hell not? Fourth, this is supposed to be a native creature of the Matrix in no small way, how can it possibly be so "foreign"?
- Why in the world would you remove the ability for Machine Sprites to actually use drones, or any other sort of device?
- How exactly are sprites meant to work? Do they just roll Hacking for a Hacking + Logic test? Because they happen not to have a Logic score. The example seems to think it uses its Resonance, but there's nothing to say that it does so.
- The sprite example neglects the existence of the supposed Limit for the Compiling test.
- The level of the Sprite apparently imposes the Limit for Compiling and Registering, lending low level sprites an inordinately high chance to resist in full. Not only does it not make sense, it actually drives people to the higher Level sprites where the system's more likely to run into problems.

I mean, seriously... It almost reads like whoever wrote the Technomancer rules just plain had it out for Technomancers, because they really seem to have been cut down. And this is without even getting into pretty big things like losing the benefits that over-threading USED to carry.

[SpellBinder]

For the matrix in general, I'm still trying to wrap my head around everything in this change. Almost wondering if there's supposed to be a Crash 3.0 for such a more dramatic change in everything (there was Crash 2.0 for SR4 and its changes).

I had hoped to try making a technomancer for my first attempt at an SR5 character, but honestly I started with a Mystic Adept instead (which seem to have gotten a good buff in the transition). I don't think I'll even touch them until the SR5 equivalent of Matrix or Unwired is released.

[binarywraith]

Call me crazy, but I don't think they got nerfed hard enough.

[RHat]

Call me crazy, but I don't think they got nerfed hard enough.

I'm rather curious to hear your reasoning, but I'd like to establish a baseline first: Would you argue that the Matrix capabilities of hackers and technomancers in SR4 should have been at equivalent power levels?

[Glyph]

In SR4, hackers had a far lower entry bar. They may have required heavy resources, but technomancers required a special Attribute, complex forms, and an additional skill group. I would think they would be better, both from the fluff and from the heavier investment of points required for them. I have heard mixed things about their effectiveness in SR4, though. I get the impression that you need to know what you are doing, and play to certain abilities, to have a good SR4 technomancer.

I will say that SR5 seems to not only be making deckers a special class, but bringing back rigging as its own standalone class, too, so that might explain why technomancer rigging, at least, got nerfed.

[RHat]

In SR4, hackers had a far lower entry bar. They may have required heavy resources, but technomancers required a special Attribute, complex forms, and an additional skill group. I would think they would be better, both from the fluff and from the heavier investment of points required for them. I have heard mixed things about their effectiveness in SR4, though. I get the impression that you need to know what you are doing, and play to certain abilities, to have a good SR4 technomancer.

I will say that SR5 seems to not only be making deckers a special class, but bringing back rigging as its own standalone class, too, so that might explain why technomancer rigging, at least, got nerfed.

It didn't get nerfed - until at least your first submersion, it literally doesn't exist. I've seen no provision for using the biodeck as an RCC, preventing the technomancer from using remote operation. Machine sprites no longer have any means to manipulate devices at all. You can jump in once you get the appropriate echo, but that's it. There's nerfing, and then there's this.

A much better solution, I'd argue, would have been to give technomancers EITHER an intrinsic biodeck or bioRCC, with a sufficiently costly means of getting the other one (mirroring the fact that it is possible to go rigger/decker at chargen, but it's a major resource drain such that it impacts the effectiveness on both sides).

[Sendaz]

So it would be like an aspect almost, either a TM rigger or a TM decker to start depending on how your ability is inclined. Plus you could learn the other down the road.

Interesting.

[RHat]

In essence, yes - though with an appropriate sacrifice, I'd prefer to see it at least available at chargen.

[Sengir]

- Why in the world would you remove the ability for Machine Sprites to actually use drones, or any other sort of device?

To be fair, the old Machine Sprites didn't have it either, because by RAW they could not jump in and their Autosoft power couldn't do anything. They "fixed" this by simply removing everything...

- How exactly are sprites meant to work? Do they just roll Hacking for a Hacking + Logic test? Because they happen not to have a Logic score. The example seems to think it uses its Resonance, but there's nothing to say that it does so.

I'd guess their level, like agents use their rating. But not written anywhere, so...

- The level of the Sprite apparently imposes the Limit for Compiling and Registering

And in the example the character uses all four hits from registering a level 3 Sprite...not even consistently used the dumb rule
PS: Just checked, Summoning is also [level], so it looks intentional *facepalm*

I mean, seriously... It almost reads like whoever wrote the Technomancer rules just plain had it out for Technomancers, because they really seem to have been cut down.

To me it rather seems like nobody cared for the TM rules one way or another, since these rules in particular often read like poor testing/proofing. Case in point: "Threading is affected by modifiers due to noise, a target being on another grid, and the public grid." So the person who treads and the person whom the CF is threaded for can be on different grids? Multiple Persona Disorder?


Oh, and let's not forget one thing which annihilates TM-device interaction even more: Your bionode can't maintain a PAN.

[Elfenlied]

I mean, seriously... It almost reads like whoever wrote the Technomancer rules just plain had it out for Technomancers, because they really seem to have been cut down. And this is without even getting into pretty big things like losing the benefits that over-threading USED to carry.

Judging by the general tenor of SR5, I'd say it's less TM hate but more like a serious hard-on for deckers and everything 3e.

[RHat]

To be fair, the old Machine Sprites didn't have it either, because by RAW they could not jump in and their Autosoft power couldn't do anything. They "fixed" this by simply removing everything...

They at least had Command, by strictest RAW, and it was clear that there was some sort of RAI in regards to how they interact with drones.

And in the example the character uses all four hits from registering a level 3 Sprite...not even consistently used the dumb rule
PS: Just checked, Summoning is also [level], so it looks intentional *facepalm*

Yeah, but I'm really hoping it was something that slipped in from a previous iteration or something.

To me it rather seems like nobody cared for the TM rules one way or another, since these rules in particular often read like poor testing/proofing. Case in point: "Threading is affected by modifiers due to noise, a target being on another grid, and the public grid." So the person who treads and the person whom the CF is threaded for can be on different grids? Multiple Persona Disorder?

If the target is "persona", it appears that you can target OTHER personas - including sprites.

Oh, and let's not forget one thing which annihilates TM-device interaction even more: Your bionode can't maintain a PAN.

Yeah, that's a major "what the fuck" right there. I don't know what the hell they were thinking there.

Also... What the hell does GOD even do/care if a technomancer compiles a sprite and has it conduct completely legal and legitimate activities, like having a Data Sprite run some searches?

[DoomFrog]

- No longer capable of any form of rigging without submersion

Well they do have a Resonance action for commanding a device, so they could actually use that to command drones. It isn't a great form of rigging, but it is rigging.

- Rather than being able to do everything that mundanes can do on the Matrix without significant investment (in some ways, I understand this - but the specific implementation has issues)

Not sure what you were trying to say with this one.

- Able to get around the Overwatch Score in the short term (via Resonance Actions), but incapable of monitoring their own Overwatch Score without simultaneously increasing Overwatch Score

Regular hackers can't find out what their overwatch score is without raising it. So technomancers actually get the advantage here since they can do some hacking without increasing overwatch score.

- Went from being incredibly flexible (which was, in a lot of ways, their major advanatage) to being LESS flexible than mundanes, because they cannot alter their deck attribute layouts.

I don't think they have really lost much flexibility. If you are comparing hackers to technos, they both lost rigging. Technos in 4e could up one of their programs through threading, but now in 5e they can lower the targets attributes through a complex form, which is still similar.

- Sprites now immediately begin accumulating Overwatch Score. I mean, what the FUCK?! First, sprites already had a hard time limit. Second, this means that there's no such thing as a legit technomancer, which you could not get all of the Big 10 to sign on for (a couple of them use technomancers too much for that). Third, what happens if the sprite drops out of the normal Matrix to go back to the Resonance? And if that's not possible anymore, why the hell not? Fourth, this is supposed to be a native creature of the Matrix in no small way, how can it possibly be so "foreign"?

I am pretty sure the mechanic of a sprite gaining overwatch over time is the replacement for the time limit on sprites. Technomancers can be "legit" if they register their sprites with the matrix. As the book says if the sprite drops back into the resonance it doesn't gain overwatch. And personally I don't think of sprites as native to the matrix, but to the resonance which in my mind is a level below the matrix.

- Why in the world would you remove the ability for Machine Sprites to actually use drones, or any other sort of device?

Because they are sprites and not autosoft programs? Actually this one I am not super positive on. Though I can accept the idea that Technomancers and Sprites aren't naturally equipped to "jump in" a drone or vehicle.

- How exactly are sprites meant to work? Do they just roll Hacking for a Hacking + Logic test? Because they happen not to have a Logic score. The example seems to think it uses its Resonance, but there's nothing to say that it does so.

I am pretty sure they are suppose to be treated as devices or agents. So they use their device rating in place of Logic.

- The sprite example neglects the existence of the supposed Limit for the Compiling test.

You are right, they made a mistake. There are quite a few of them in the book.

- The level of the Sprite apparently imposes the Limit for Compiling and Registering, lending low level sprites an inordinately high chance to resist in full. Not only does it not make sense, it actually drives people to the higher Level sprites where the system's more likely to run into problems.

The explanation I read was that sprites (and spirits) of low level (or power) are weak and thus have a hard time sustaining themselves outside their natural environment. So Force 1 and 2 are hard to summon and can't do much. Personally I think it is also suppose to be a solution to mages and technos summoning Force 1 sprites and spirits to do any minor task they feel like. I know I use to summon force 1 spirits for scouting .

[Umidori]

Second, this means that there's no such thing as a legit technomancer, which you could not get all of the Big 10 to sign on for (a couple of them use technomancers too much for that).

Sure there are legit technomancers. Corporate ones. The ones that are in the GOD databases, being monitored and controlled. They do what they're told and they don't get vivisected. Some of the really skilled and cooperative ones might even be so lucky as to be given a SIN and get paid.

The other technomancers? The ones who aren't securely under the thumbs of the AAAs? If they get found, they get dealt with. Lotta money in researching the buggers, after all. Lotta potential in forcibly recruiting them to do your dirty work, too. Or if they're dangerous enough and not worth the trouble, it's still profitable to hire them as deniable assets. Naturally it'd be best for everyone if they didn't get caught, but hey, that's between them and GOD.

~Umi

[ElFenrir]

I actually find Technos to be better in a lot of ways at chargen now-I was actually able to make a Technomancer that wasn't utterly deficient in *everything else except computer stuff.* They seemed to take a buff out of the gate, but as a trade off need to submerge for vehicles. Sounds honestly like a fair trade off to me, and I actually kind of like it a bit better this way.

[RHat]

Well they do have a Resonance action for commanding a device, so they could actually use that to command drones. It isn't a great form of rigging, but it is rigging.

More like SR4 spoofing. It really doesn't count when you're eating damage to so much as move the thing a few meters.

Not sure what you were trying to say with this one.

Technomancers in SR4 were incredibly flexible - whatever you needed to do, you could thread up a Complex Form to do it. Now...

Compare programs to complex forms. There's a couple nice complex forms but programs provide some extraordinarily important benefits.

Regular hackers can't find out what their overwatch score is without raising it. So technomancers actually get the advantage here since they can do some hacking without increasing overwatch score.

Baby Monitor program. And Resonance actions don't achieve any hacking - you can get some pretty tame cybercombat damage, though,

I don't think they have really lost much flexibility. If you are comparing hackers to technos, they both lost rigging. Technos in 4e could up one of their programs through threading, but now in 5e they can lower the targets attributes through a complex form, which is still similar.

Part of the issue is that a technomancer, rather than even having the OPTION to be a dedicated rigger instead, must always be a hacker until they hit their first submersion. This, quite simply, destroys a wide variety of 'mancer concepts.

I am pretty sure the mechanic of a sprite gaining overwatch over time is the replacement for the time limit on sprites. Technomancers can be "legit" if they register their sprites with the matrix. As the book says if the sprite drops back into the resonance it doesn't gain overwatch. And personally I don't think of sprites as native to the matrix, but to the resonance which in my mind is a level below the matrix.

That appears to be the purpose, which makes it a MASSIVE nerf. First, you go from 8 hours to about an hour to an hour and a half on average. Second, the moment their score hits 40, you've got GOD after you even if you haven't done any hacking. Want to compile a machine sprite to help you fix your car? Too bad! And so on.

Because they are sprites and not autosoft programs? Actually this one I am not super positive on. Though I can accept the idea that Technomancers and Sprites aren't naturally equipped to "jump in" a drone or vehicle.

Again, the biggest problem with this change is it destroys many concepts that worked before and shoehorns technomancers into one and only one possible role. It also represents a major change from the concept of what technomancers ARE without any sufficient game or fluff reason for it. After all, hacking and rigging technomancers could be made mutually exclusive or near to at chargen pretty easily.

And whether or not they can jump in, controlling devices is LITERALLY the entire purpose for which Machine Sprites exist. There's a couple fringe benefits to them, sure, but they've been stripped of their purpose.

I am pretty sure they are suppose to be treated as devices or agents. So they use their device rating in place of Logic.

Should be stated. Personally, I'd rather use the technomancer Matrix attribute associations in reverse to determine the appropriate mental attributes.

The explanation I read was that sprites (and spirits) of low level (or power) are weak and thus have a hard time sustaining themselves outside their natural environment. So Force 1 and 2 are hard to summon and can't do much. Personally I think it is also suppose to be a solution to mages and technos summoning Force 1 sprites and spirits to do any minor task they feel like. I know I use to summon force 1 spirits for scouting .

... Yeah, that doesn't make sense. If it was that, then the Level/Force of the sprite/spirit would play a direct role in how long they could stick around. And I don't see how that's a "problem" - it's the entire freaking point of watchers, for one thing. Besides, at level/force 1 it's gonna be dumb as a sack of hammers, and cannot be relied upon to accurately convey the pertinent information.

Sure there are legit technomancers. Corporate ones. The ones that are in the GOD databases, being monitored and controlled. They do what they're told and they don't get vivisected. Some of the really skilled and cooperative ones might even be so lucky as to be given a SIN and get paid.

The other technomancers? The ones who aren't securely under the thumbs of the AAAs? If they get found, they get dealt with. Lotta money in researching the buggers, after all. Lotta potential in forcibly recruiting them to do your dirty work, too. Or if they're dangerous enough and not worth the trouble, it's still profitable to hire them as deniable assets. Naturally it'd be best for everyone if they didn't get caught, but hey, that's between them and GOD.

~Umi

Don't buy it. ALL of the Big Ten had to get on board with this, and that just doesn't fit all of their agendas. Plus it's completely ridiculous from a game perspective. Further, while it does suck to be a technomancer for a lot of reasons, after the events of Emergence the corps that DO engage in that sort of research need to be a good deal more subtle than that - which is a damn good thing, given that the alternative is rendering them largely unplayable.

[Umidori]

Which is a damn good thing, given that the alternative is rendering them largely unplayable.

What, like Infected? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Imagine you're a technomancer. Your powers aren't science. They aren't magic, either. In fact, they're a giant friggen mystery. Corps want to open up your head and study your brain to figure it out. The average person fears you as some sort of freak of nature. A lot of governments have bounties out for your capture, others will even put you to death. GOD doesn't like you, because you're difficult and expensive to track.

Is your life difficult? Heck yes. Do you need to hide your powers and your very nature? Of course. Do you run a risk of being found out if you use your powers too much, or too openly? Naturally. Are you somehow unplayable because of this? No, and neither are any of the countless other shadowdwellers who live in much the same situation.

Shadowrunners are already SINless criminals who get paid money to shoot people in the face. Being smart, covering your tracks, and living in fear of people figuring out who you really are and capturing you for their own nefarious ends is a daily reality, even for ordinary mundanes. If you're good enough to blow things up and shoot people full of holes and not get thrown in a cell for the rest of your life as a result, you're probably good enough to avoid getting into much the same sort of trouble just because you're a Technomancer.

Just be glad you don't also have to swallow souls and eat people to make it through the day, like some poor bastards.

Don't buy it. ALL of the Big Ten had to get on board with this, and that just doesn't fit all of their agendas.

Sure it does.

Technomancers are valuable, but dangerous assets. They're hard to find, hard to control, and the corps desperately want to exert as much influence over them as possible. The corps rule by creating fear, then offering security. If they turn Technomancers into a bogeyman, it gives them control over both the frightened populace and the ostracized technomancers in one fell swoop.

Each of the corps wants to unravel the Technomancy mystery for themselves. They each want to get their hands on as many Technomancers as they can to study and/or run special ops for them, while simultaneously preventing the other corps from doing the same, or at least slowing them down. They're faced with choice to either cooperate somewhat via GOD - which they're already cooperating to implement anyway - in order to make it much easier for all of them to control Technomancers, or squabble fruitlessly among themselves and let the Technomancers slip through their fingers. They're going to go for a guaranteed slice of the pie over an uncertain entirety, every time. It's called protecting your bottom line.

~Umi

[Sendaz]

Just be glad you don't also have to swallow souls and eat people to make it through the day, like some poor bastards.

Wait, Lawyers are a PC Archetype again? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[RHat]

What, like Infected? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Imagine you're a technomancer. Your powers aren't science. They aren't magic, either. In fact, they're a giant friggen mystery. Corps want to open up your head and study your brain to figure it out. The average person fears you as some sort of freak of nature. A lot of governments have bounties out for your capture, others will even put you to death. GOD doesn't like you, because you're difficult and expensive to track.

Is your life difficult? Heck yes. Do you need to hide your powers and your very nature? Of course. Do you run a risk of being found out if you use your powers too much, or too openly? Naturally. Are you somehow unplayable because of this? No, and neither are any of the countless other shadowdwellers who live in much the same situation.

Shadowrunners are already SINless criminals who get paid money to shoot people in the face. Being smart, covering your tracks, and living in fear of people figuring out who you really are and capturing you for their own nefarious ends is a daily reality, even for ordinary mundanes. If you're good enough to blow things up and shoot people full of holes and not get thrown in a cell for the rest of your life as a result, you're probably good enough to avoid getting into much the same sort of trouble just because you're a Technomancer.

Just be glad you don't also have to swallow souls and eat people to make it through the day, like some poor bastards.


Sure it does.

Technomancers are valuable, but dangerous assets. They're hard to find, hard to control, and the corps desperately want to exert as much influence over them as possible. The corps rule by creating fear, then offering security. If they turn Technomancers into a bogeyman, it gives them control over both the frightened populace and the ostracized technomancers in one fell swoop.

Each of the corps wants to unravel the Technomancy mystery for themselves. They each want to get their hands on as many Technomancers as they can to study and/or run special ops for them, while simultaneously preventing the other corps from doing the same, or at least slowing them down. They're faced with choice to either cooperate somewhat via GOD - which they're already cooperating to implement anyway - in order to make it much easier for all of them to control Technomancers, or squabble fruitlessly among themselves and let the Technomancers slip through their fingers. They're going to go for a guaranteed slice of the pie over an uncertain entirety, every time. It's called protecting your bottom line.

~Umi

First, Infected aren't a core option. As a purely splatbook thing, they sort of fall under different criteria.

Second, never said corps wouldn't want to control technomancers. However, there's a few things to note about that. First, their programs related to that are as secret as it gets, and they'd have to be incredibly stupid to let GOD get anywhere near those plans. Second, nothing I've seen thus far indicates a reverse course on the present state of technomancers - that is, corps being after is a concern, but nowhere near as big as you're suggesting. Third, they TRIED turning technomancers into bogeymen, and they're gonna have a hard time doing it again any time soon after the spectacular manner in which it backfired - the events of Emergence hit sort of hard, and now that technomancers are more organized after Twilight Horizon, the corps can't fully control the information that's going out. Third, the agendas of some of the corps do not (generally) involve the whole "kidnap 'em and cut their brains open" bit - they all have an agenda, but their agendas are not all served by making it nigh-illegal to be a technomancer.

Without some serious changes in the fluff that would, from a game standpoint, be going in the wrong direction, that rule just doesn't make any damn sense.

[Sengir]

They at least had Command, by strictest RAW, and it was clear that there was some sort of RAI in regards to how they interact with drones.

Control Device now is either the normal Skill+Att[min(Data Processing, normal limit)] test, or Electronic Warfare + Intuition [Sleaze] if the action normally would not require a test. The only "drone skill" Machine Sprites have is Hardware, so you could put one into a repair drone, but for everything else (including driving the repair drone around) it's just as incompetent as a Data Sprite -- only that the Data Sprite has +1 Initiative and +1 Data Processing

(BTW, "if it normally has no test it becomes a Sleaze action" also means that remotely opening your garage door requires and illegally modified commlink and sooner or later leads to this)

If the target is "persona", it appears that you can target OTHER personas - including sprites.

Major brainfart, must have somehow confused it with the old Threading rules...

Also... What the hell does GOD even do/care if a technomancer compiles a sprite and has it conduct completely legal and legitimate activities, like having a Data Sprite run some searches?

Well, you can get "sanctioned" by GOD and not generate OS any longer (p. 232), this would probably also apply to Sprites. But the fluff of making native creatures of the net show up as an abnormality is still piss poor...

[Umidori]

Without some serious changes in the fluff that would, from a game standpoint, be going in the wrong direction, that rule just doesn't make any damn sense.

Have you read the Technomancer fluff in the SR5 book? It all but comes out and says "You're an illegal pariah at this point, don't get caught."

~Umi

[Charon]

Have you read the Technomancer fluff in the SR5 book? It all but comes out and says "You're an illegal pariah at this point, don't get caught."

~Umi

There are technomancers in GOD, there are plenty in Horizon in various capacities, great dragons are using them (most notably Hestaby, pretty sure I read about Lofwyr) etc.

If you don't want to go wageslave, you could just register and then work legally but with Mitsuhama and other corps randomly snatching independant technomancers, this might be a bad idea.

So basically, get yourself a powerful patron that technosnatchers won't want to piss off or else: "You're an illegal pariah at this point, don't get caught." I kinda like it; it makes them the most likely archetype if you want to play an ordinary joe thrust into the shadows. It gives both the reason why an ordinary man could be forced into that life and the Tools to be successful.

[RHat]

Have you read the Technomancer fluff in the SR5 book? It all but comes out and says "You're an illegal pariah at this point, don't get caught."

~Umi

Actually, it's largely the same as it was in SR4A. Just a whole hell of a lot less detailed - and while technomancers have never been really accepted, it's not generally illegal to be one.

Remember, stuff like cutting into technomancer brains generally needs to be done at the blackest of black sites.

[Umidori]

It is explicitly stated that there are government bounties for your capture, with some parts of the world putting you to death.

But no, you're right, clearly being one isn't illegal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

~Umi

[RHat]

I take it you're choosing to skim past the "in some territories" part which marks that as being an exception to the general state of affairs, with the whole "punishable by death" thing being more so? I did say "generally", after all.

[Umidori]

And immediately after that is "The end result of this is that technomancers hide their abilities and identities, and some even their talent with programming, to avoid harassment and threats."

Note, not "some" technomancers, but rather in terms of "the general state of affairs", technomancers as a wholeare pariahs.

Now, are they actually illegal in Seattle, specifically? That in particular is not spelled out. But what is spelled out is that people fear them, employers won't hire them, corporations want to disect them, GOD has trouble tracking them and cracks down especially hard on them, and the end result is that they hide their abilities and identities.

So yeah, pariahs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi