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RHat
So, let's rundown the effective changes to Technomancers in SR5:

- No longer capable of any form of rigging without submersion
- Rather than being able to do everything that mundanes can do on the Matrix without significant investment (in some ways, I understand this - but the specific implementation has issues)
- Able to get around the Overwatch Score in the short term (via Resonance Actions), but incapable of monitoring their own Overwatch Score without simultaneously increasing Overwatch Score
- Went from being incredibly flexible (which was, in a lot of ways, their major advanatage) to being LESS flexible than mundanes, because they cannot alter their deck attribute layouts.
- Sprites now immediately begin accumulating Overwatch Score. I mean, what the FUCK?! First, sprites already had a hard time limit. Second, this means that there's no such thing as a legit technomancer, which you could not get all of the Big 10 to sign on for (a couple of them use technomancers too much for that). Third, what happens if the sprite drops out of the normal Matrix to go back to the Resonance? And if that's not possible anymore, why the hell not? Fourth, this is supposed to be a native creature of the Matrix in no small way, how can it possibly be so "foreign"?
- Why in the world would you remove the ability for Machine Sprites to actually use drones, or any other sort of device?
- How exactly are sprites meant to work? Do they just roll Hacking for a Hacking + Logic test? Because they happen not to have a Logic score. The example seems to think it uses its Resonance, but there's nothing to say that it does so.
- The sprite example neglects the existence of the supposed Limit for the Compiling test.
- The level of the Sprite apparently imposes the Limit for Compiling and Registering, lending low level sprites an inordinately high chance to resist in full. Not only does it not make sense, it actually drives people to the higher Level sprites where the system's more likely to run into problems.

I mean, seriously... It almost reads like whoever wrote the Technomancer rules just plain had it out for Technomancers, because they really seem to have been cut down. And this is without even getting into pretty big things like losing the benefits that over-threading USED to carry.
SpellBinder
For the matrix in general, I'm still trying to wrap my head around everything in this change. Almost wondering if there's supposed to be a Crash 3.0 for such a more dramatic change in everything (there was Crash 2.0 for SR4 and its changes).

I had hoped to try making a technomancer for my first attempt at an SR5 character, but honestly I started with a Mystic Adept instead (which seem to have gotten a good buff in the transition). I don't think I'll even touch them until the SR5 equivalent of Matrix or Unwired is released.
binarywraith
Call me crazy, but I don't think they got nerfed hard enough.
RHat
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jul 13 2013, 01:11 AM) *
Call me crazy, but I don't think they got nerfed hard enough.


I'm rather curious to hear your reasoning, but I'd like to establish a baseline first: Would you argue that the Matrix capabilities of hackers and technomancers in SR4 should have been at equivalent power levels?
Glyph
In SR4, hackers had a far lower entry bar. They may have required heavy resources, but technomancers required a special Attribute, complex forms, and an additional skill group. I would think they would be better, both from the fluff and from the heavier investment of points required for them. I have heard mixed things about their effectiveness in SR4, though. I get the impression that you need to know what you are doing, and play to certain abilities, to have a good SR4 technomancer.

I will say that SR5 seems to not only be making deckers a special class, but bringing back rigging as its own standalone class, too, so that might explain why technomancer rigging, at least, got nerfed.
RHat
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jul 13 2013, 02:02 AM) *
In SR4, hackers had a far lower entry bar. They may have required heavy resources, but technomancers required a special Attribute, complex forms, and an additional skill group. I would think they would be better, both from the fluff and from the heavier investment of points required for them. I have heard mixed things about their effectiveness in SR4, though. I get the impression that you need to know what you are doing, and play to certain abilities, to have a good SR4 technomancer.

I will say that SR5 seems to not only be making deckers a special class, but bringing back rigging as its own standalone class, too, so that might explain why technomancer rigging, at least, got nerfed.


It didn't get nerfed - until at least your first submersion, it literally doesn't exist. I've seen no provision for using the biodeck as an RCC, preventing the technomancer from using remote operation. Machine sprites no longer have any means to manipulate devices at all. You can jump in once you get the appropriate echo, but that's it. There's nerfing, and then there's this.

A much better solution, I'd argue, would have been to give technomancers EITHER an intrinsic biodeck or bioRCC, with a sufficiently costly means of getting the other one (mirroring the fact that it is possible to go rigger/decker at chargen, but it's a major resource drain such that it impacts the effectiveness on both sides).
Sendaz
So it would be like an aspect almost, either a TM rigger or a TM decker to start depending on how your ability is inclined. Plus you could learn the other down the road.

Interesting.
RHat
In essence, yes - though with an appropriate sacrifice, I'd prefer to see it at least available at chargen.
Sengir
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 13 2013, 07:09 AM) *
- Why in the world would you remove the ability for Machine Sprites to actually use drones, or any other sort of device?

To be fair, the old Machine Sprites didn't have it either, because by RAW they could not jump in and their Autosoft power couldn't do anything. They "fixed" this by simply removing everything...

QUOTE
- How exactly are sprites meant to work? Do they just roll Hacking for a Hacking + Logic test? Because they happen not to have a Logic score. The example seems to think it uses its Resonance, but there's nothing to say that it does so.

I'd guess their level, like agents use their rating. But not written anywhere, so...

QUOTE
- The level of the Sprite apparently imposes the Limit for Compiling and Registering

And in the example the character uses all four hits from registering a level 3 Sprite...not even consistently used the dumb rule
PS: Just checked, Summoning is also [level], so it looks intentional *facepalm*

QUOTE
I mean, seriously... It almost reads like whoever wrote the Technomancer rules just plain had it out for Technomancers, because they really seem to have been cut down.

To me it rather seems like nobody cared for the TM rules one way or another, since these rules in particular often read like poor testing/proofing. Case in point: "Threading is affected by modifiers due to noise, a target being on another grid, and the public grid." So the person who treads and the person whom the CF is threaded for can be on different grids? Multiple Persona Disorder?


Oh, and let's not forget one thing which annihilates TM-device interaction even more: Your bionode can't maintain a PAN.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 13 2013, 07:09 AM) *
I mean, seriously... It almost reads like whoever wrote the Technomancer rules just plain had it out for Technomancers, because they really seem to have been cut down. And this is without even getting into pretty big things like losing the benefits that over-threading USED to carry.


Judging by the general tenor of SR5, I'd say it's less TM hate but more like a serious hard-on for deckers and everything 3e.
RHat
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 13 2013, 06:12 AM) *
To be fair, the old Machine Sprites didn't have it either, because by RAW they could not jump in and their Autosoft power couldn't do anything. They "fixed" this by simply removing everything...

They at least had Command, by strictest RAW, and it was clear that there was some sort of RAI in regards to how they interact with drones.

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 13 2013, 06:12 AM) *
And in the example the character uses all four hits from registering a level 3 Sprite...not even consistently used the dumb rule
PS: Just checked, Summoning is also [level], so it looks intentional *facepalm*

Yeah, but I'm really hoping it was something that slipped in from a previous iteration or something.

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 13 2013, 06:12 AM) *
To me it rather seems like nobody cared for the TM rules one way or another, since these rules in particular often read like poor testing/proofing. Case in point: "Threading is affected by modifiers due to noise, a target being on another grid, and the public grid." So the person who treads and the person whom the CF is threaded for can be on different grids? Multiple Persona Disorder?

If the target is "persona", it appears that you can target OTHER personas - including sprites.

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 13 2013, 06:12 AM) *
Oh, and let's not forget one thing which annihilates TM-device interaction even more: Your bionode can't maintain a PAN.

Yeah, that's a major "what the fuck" right there. I don't know what the hell they were thinking there.

Also... What the hell does GOD even do/care if a technomancer compiles a sprite and has it conduct completely legal and legitimate activities, like having a Data Sprite run some searches?
DoomFrog
QUOTE
- No longer capable of any form of rigging without submersion


Well they do have a Resonance action for commanding a device, so they could actually use that to command drones. It isn't a great form of rigging, but it is rigging.

QUOTE
- Rather than being able to do everything that mundanes can do on the Matrix without significant investment (in some ways, I understand this - but the specific implementation has issues)


Not sure what you were trying to say with this one.

QUOTE
- Able to get around the Overwatch Score in the short term (via Resonance Actions), but incapable of monitoring their own Overwatch Score without simultaneously increasing Overwatch Score


Regular hackers can't find out what their overwatch score is without raising it. So technomancers actually get the advantage here since they can do some hacking without increasing overwatch score.

QUOTE
- Went from being incredibly flexible (which was, in a lot of ways, their major advanatage) to being LESS flexible than mundanes, because they cannot alter their deck attribute layouts.


I don't think they have really lost much flexibility. If you are comparing hackers to technos, they both lost rigging. Technos in 4e could up one of their programs through threading, but now in 5e they can lower the targets attributes through a complex form, which is still similar.

QUOTE
- Sprites now immediately begin accumulating Overwatch Score. I mean, what the FUCK?! First, sprites already had a hard time limit. Second, this means that there's no such thing as a legit technomancer, which you could not get all of the Big 10 to sign on for (a couple of them use technomancers too much for that). Third, what happens if the sprite drops out of the normal Matrix to go back to the Resonance? And if that's not possible anymore, why the hell not? Fourth, this is supposed to be a native creature of the Matrix in no small way, how can it possibly be so "foreign"?


I am pretty sure the mechanic of a sprite gaining overwatch over time is the replacement for the time limit on sprites. Technomancers can be "legit" if they register their sprites with the matrix. As the book says if the sprite drops back into the resonance it doesn't gain overwatch. And personally I don't think of sprites as native to the matrix, but to the resonance which in my mind is a level below the matrix.

QUOTE
- Why in the world would you remove the ability for Machine Sprites to actually use drones, or any other sort of device?


Because they are sprites and not autosoft programs? Actually this one I am not super positive on. Though I can accept the idea that Technomancers and Sprites aren't naturally equipped to "jump in" a drone or vehicle.

QUOTE
- How exactly are sprites meant to work? Do they just roll Hacking for a Hacking + Logic test? Because they happen not to have a Logic score. The example seems to think it uses its Resonance, but there's nothing to say that it does so.


I am pretty sure they are suppose to be treated as devices or agents. So they use their device rating in place of Logic.

QUOTE
- The sprite example neglects the existence of the supposed Limit for the Compiling test.


You are right, they made a mistake. There are quite a few of them in the book.

QUOTE
- The level of the Sprite apparently imposes the Limit for Compiling and Registering, lending low level sprites an inordinately high chance to resist in full. Not only does it not make sense, it actually drives people to the higher Level sprites where the system's more likely to run into problems.


The explanation I read was that sprites (and spirits) of low level (or power) are weak and thus have a hard time sustaining themselves outside their natural environment. So Force 1 and 2 are hard to summon and can't do much. Personally I think it is also suppose to be a solution to mages and technos summoning Force 1 sprites and spirits to do any minor task they feel like. I know I use to summon force 1 spirits for scouting .
Umidori
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 13 2013, 12:09 AM) *
Second, this means that there's no such thing as a legit technomancer, which you could not get all of the Big 10 to sign on for (a couple of them use technomancers too much for that).

Sure there are legit technomancers. Corporate ones. The ones that are in the GOD databases, being monitored and controlled. They do what they're told and they don't get vivisected. Some of the really skilled and cooperative ones might even be so lucky as to be given a SIN and get paid.

The other technomancers? The ones who aren't securely under the thumbs of the AAAs? If they get found, they get dealt with. Lotta money in researching the buggers, after all. Lotta potential in forcibly recruiting them to do your dirty work, too. Or if they're dangerous enough and not worth the trouble, it's still profitable to hire them as deniable assets. Naturally it'd be best for everyone if they didn't get caught, but hey, that's between them and GOD.

~Umi
ElFenrir
I actually find Technos to be better in a lot of ways at chargen now-I was actually able to make a Technomancer that wasn't utterly deficient in *everything else except computer stuff.* They seemed to take a buff out of the gate, but as a trade off need to submerge for vehicles. Sounds honestly like a fair trade off to me, and I actually kind of like it a bit better this way.
RHat
QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Jul 14 2013, 12:33 AM) *
Well they do have a Resonance action for commanding a device, so they could actually use that to command drones. It isn't a great form of rigging, but it is rigging.


More like SR4 spoofing. It really doesn't count when you're eating damage to so much as move the thing a few meters.

QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Jul 14 2013, 12:33 AM) *
Not sure what you were trying to say with this one.


Technomancers in SR4 were incredibly flexible - whatever you needed to do, you could thread up a Complex Form to do it. Now...

Compare programs to complex forms. There's a couple nice complex forms but programs provide some extraordinarily important benefits.

QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Jul 14 2013, 12:33 AM) *
Regular hackers can't find out what their overwatch score is without raising it. So technomancers actually get the advantage here since they can do some hacking without increasing overwatch score.


Baby Monitor program. And Resonance actions don't achieve any hacking - you can get some pretty tame cybercombat damage, though,

QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Jul 14 2013, 12:33 AM) *
I don't think they have really lost much flexibility. If you are comparing hackers to technos, they both lost rigging. Technos in 4e could up one of their programs through threading, but now in 5e they can lower the targets attributes through a complex form, which is still similar.


Part of the issue is that a technomancer, rather than even having the OPTION to be a dedicated rigger instead, must always be a hacker until they hit their first submersion. This, quite simply, destroys a wide variety of 'mancer concepts.

QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Jul 14 2013, 12:33 AM) *
I am pretty sure the mechanic of a sprite gaining overwatch over time is the replacement for the time limit on sprites. Technomancers can be "legit" if they register their sprites with the matrix. As the book says if the sprite drops back into the resonance it doesn't gain overwatch. And personally I don't think of sprites as native to the matrix, but to the resonance which in my mind is a level below the matrix.


That appears to be the purpose, which makes it a MASSIVE nerf. First, you go from 8 hours to about an hour to an hour and a half on average. Second, the moment their score hits 40, you've got GOD after you even if you haven't done any hacking. Want to compile a machine sprite to help you fix your car? Too bad! And so on.

QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Jul 14 2013, 12:33 AM) *
Because they are sprites and not autosoft programs? Actually this one I am not super positive on. Though I can accept the idea that Technomancers and Sprites aren't naturally equipped to "jump in" a drone or vehicle.


Again, the biggest problem with this change is it destroys many concepts that worked before and shoehorns technomancers into one and only one possible role. It also represents a major change from the concept of what technomancers ARE without any sufficient game or fluff reason for it. After all, hacking and rigging technomancers could be made mutually exclusive or near to at chargen pretty easily.

And whether or not they can jump in, controlling devices is LITERALLY the entire purpose for which Machine Sprites exist. There's a couple fringe benefits to them, sure, but they've been stripped of their purpose.

QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Jul 14 2013, 12:33 AM) *
I am pretty sure they are suppose to be treated as devices or agents. So they use their device rating in place of Logic.


Should be stated. Personally, I'd rather use the technomancer Matrix attribute associations in reverse to determine the appropriate mental attributes.

QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Jul 14 2013, 12:33 AM) *
The explanation I read was that sprites (and spirits) of low level (or power) are weak and thus have a hard time sustaining themselves outside their natural environment. So Force 1 and 2 are hard to summon and can't do much. Personally I think it is also suppose to be a solution to mages and technos summoning Force 1 sprites and spirits to do any minor task they feel like. I know I use to summon force 1 spirits for scouting .


... Yeah, that doesn't make sense. If it was that, then the Level/Force of the sprite/spirit would play a direct role in how long they could stick around. And I don't see how that's a "problem" - it's the entire freaking point of watchers, for one thing. Besides, at level/force 1 it's gonna be dumb as a sack of hammers, and cannot be relied upon to accurately convey the pertinent information.

QUOTE (Umidori @ Jul 14 2013, 01:11 AM) *
Sure there are legit technomancers. Corporate ones. The ones that are in the GOD databases, being monitored and controlled. They do what they're told and they don't get vivisected. Some of the really skilled and cooperative ones might even be so lucky as to be given a SIN and get paid.

The other technomancers? The ones who aren't securely under the thumbs of the AAAs? If they get found, they get dealt with. Lotta money in researching the buggers, after all. Lotta potential in forcibly recruiting them to do your dirty work, too. Or if they're dangerous enough and not worth the trouble, it's still profitable to hire them as deniable assets. Naturally it'd be best for everyone if they didn't get caught, but hey, that's between them and GOD.

~Umi


Don't buy it. ALL of the Big Ten had to get on board with this, and that just doesn't fit all of their agendas. Plus it's completely ridiculous from a game perspective. Further, while it does suck to be a technomancer for a lot of reasons, after the events of Emergence the corps that DO engage in that sort of research need to be a good deal more subtle than that - which is a damn good thing, given that the alternative is rendering them largely unplayable.
Umidori
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 14 2013, 03:29 AM) *
Which is a damn good thing, given that the alternative is rendering them largely unplayable.

What, like Infected? sarcastic.gif

Imagine you're a technomancer. Your powers aren't science. They aren't magic, either. In fact, they're a giant friggen mystery. Corps want to open up your head and study your brain to figure it out. The average person fears you as some sort of freak of nature. A lot of governments have bounties out for your capture, others will even put you to death. GOD doesn't like you, because you're difficult and expensive to track.

Is your life difficult? Heck yes. Do you need to hide your powers and your very nature? Of course. Do you run a risk of being found out if you use your powers too much, or too openly? Naturally. Are you somehow unplayable because of this? No, and neither are any of the countless other shadowdwellers who live in much the same situation.

Shadowrunners are already SINless criminals who get paid money to shoot people in the face. Being smart, covering your tracks, and living in fear of people figuring out who you really are and capturing you for their own nefarious ends is a daily reality, even for ordinary mundanes. If you're good enough to blow things up and shoot people full of holes and not get thrown in a cell for the rest of your life as a result, you're probably good enough to avoid getting into much the same sort of trouble just because you're a Technomancer.

Just be glad you don't also have to swallow souls and eat people to make it through the day, like some poor bastards.

QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 14 2013, 03:29 AM) *
Don't buy it. ALL of the Big Ten had to get on board with this, and that just doesn't fit all of their agendas.

Sure it does.

Technomancers are valuable, but dangerous assets. They're hard to find, hard to control, and the corps desperately want to exert as much influence over them as possible. The corps rule by creating fear, then offering security. If they turn Technomancers into a bogeyman, it gives them control over both the frightened populace and the ostracized technomancers in one fell swoop.

Each of the corps wants to unravel the Technomancy mystery for themselves. They each want to get their hands on as many Technomancers as they can to study and/or run special ops for them, while simultaneously preventing the other corps from doing the same, or at least slowing them down. They're faced with choice to either cooperate somewhat via GOD - which they're already cooperating to implement anyway - in order to make it much easier for all of them to control Technomancers, or squabble fruitlessly among themselves and let the Technomancers slip through their fingers. They're going to go for a guaranteed slice of the pie over an uncertain entirety, every time. It's called protecting your bottom line.

~Umi
Sendaz
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jul 14 2013, 06:10 AM) *
Just be glad you don't also have to swallow souls and eat people to make it through the day, like some poor bastards.

Wait, Lawyers are a PC Archetype again? nyahnyah.gif
RHat
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jul 14 2013, 03:10 AM) *
What, like Infected? sarcastic.gif

Imagine you're a technomancer. Your powers aren't science. They aren't magic, either. In fact, they're a giant friggen mystery. Corps want to open up your head and study your brain to figure it out. The average person fears you as some sort of freak of nature. A lot of governments have bounties out for your capture, others will even put you to death. GOD doesn't like you, because you're difficult and expensive to track.

Is your life difficult? Heck yes. Do you need to hide your powers and your very nature? Of course. Do you run a risk of being found out if you use your powers too much, or too openly? Naturally. Are you somehow unplayable because of this? No, and neither are any of the countless other shadowdwellers who live in much the same situation.

Shadowrunners are already SINless criminals who get paid money to shoot people in the face. Being smart, covering your tracks, and living in fear of people figuring out who you really are and capturing you for their own nefarious ends is a daily reality, even for ordinary mundanes. If you're good enough to blow things up and shoot people full of holes and not get thrown in a cell for the rest of your life as a result, you're probably good enough to avoid getting into much the same sort of trouble just because you're a Technomancer.

Just be glad you don't also have to swallow souls and eat people to make it through the day, like some poor bastards.


Sure it does.

Technomancers are valuable, but dangerous assets. They're hard to find, hard to control, and the corps desperately want to exert as much influence over them as possible. The corps rule by creating fear, then offering security. If they turn Technomancers into a bogeyman, it gives them control over both the frightened populace and the ostracized technomancers in one fell swoop.

Each of the corps wants to unravel the Technomancy mystery for themselves. They each want to get their hands on as many Technomancers as they can to study and/or run special ops for them, while simultaneously preventing the other corps from doing the same, or at least slowing them down. They're faced with choice to either cooperate somewhat via GOD - which they're already cooperating to implement anyway - in order to make it much easier for all of them to control Technomancers, or squabble fruitlessly among themselves and let the Technomancers slip through their fingers. They're going to go for a guaranteed slice of the pie over an uncertain entirety, every time. It's called protecting your bottom line.

~Umi



First, Infected aren't a core option. As a purely splatbook thing, they sort of fall under different criteria.

Second, never said corps wouldn't want to control technomancers. However, there's a few things to note about that. First, their programs related to that are as secret as it gets, and they'd have to be incredibly stupid to let GOD get anywhere near those plans. Second, nothing I've seen thus far indicates a reverse course on the present state of technomancers - that is, corps being after is a concern, but nowhere near as big as you're suggesting. Third, they TRIED turning technomancers into bogeymen, and they're gonna have a hard time doing it again any time soon after the spectacular manner in which it backfired - the events of Emergence hit sort of hard, and now that technomancers are more organized after Twilight Horizon, the corps can't fully control the information that's going out. Third, the agendas of some of the corps do not (generally) involve the whole "kidnap 'em and cut their brains open" bit - they all have an agenda, but their agendas are not all served by making it nigh-illegal to be a technomancer.

Without some serious changes in the fluff that would, from a game standpoint, be going in the wrong direction, that rule just doesn't make any damn sense.
Sengir
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 14 2013, 03:01 AM) *
They at least had Command, by strictest RAW, and it was clear that there was some sort of RAI in regards to how they interact with drones.

Control Device now is either the normal Skill+Att[min(Data Processing, normal limit)] test, or Electronic Warfare + Intuition [Sleaze] if the action normally would not require a test. The only "drone skill" Machine Sprites have is Hardware, so you could put one into a repair drone, but for everything else (including driving the repair drone around) it's just as incompetent as a Data Sprite -- only that the Data Sprite has +1 Initiative and +1 Data Processing

(BTW, "if it normally has no test it becomes a Sleaze action" also means that remotely opening your garage door requires and illegally modified commlink and sooner or later leads to this)

QUOTE
If the target is "persona", it appears that you can target OTHER personas - including sprites.

Major brainfart, must have somehow confused it with the old Threading rules...

QUOTE
Also... What the hell does GOD even do/care if a technomancer compiles a sprite and has it conduct completely legal and legitimate activities, like having a Data Sprite run some searches?

Well, you can get "sanctioned" by GOD and not generate OS any longer (p. 232), this would probably also apply to Sprites. But the fluff of making native creatures of the net show up as an abnormality is still piss poor...
Umidori
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 14 2013, 03:58 AM) *
Without some serious changes in the fluff that would, from a game standpoint, be going in the wrong direction, that rule just doesn't make any damn sense.
Have you read the Technomancer fluff in the SR5 book? It all but comes out and says "You're an illegal pariah at this point, don't get caught."

~Umi
Charon
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jul 14 2013, 12:41 PM) *
Have you read the Technomancer fluff in the SR5 book? It all but comes out and says "You're an illegal pariah at this point, don't get caught."

~Umi


There are technomancers in GOD, there are plenty in Horizon in various capacities, great dragons are using them (most notably Hestaby, pretty sure I read about Lofwyr) etc.

If you don't want to go wageslave, you could just register and then work legally but with Mitsuhama and other corps randomly snatching independant technomancers, this might be a bad idea.

So basically, get yourself a powerful patron that technosnatchers won't want to piss off or else: "You're an illegal pariah at this point, don't get caught." I kinda like it; it makes them the most likely archetype if you want to play an ordinary joe thrust into the shadows. It gives both the reason why an ordinary man could be forced into that life and the Tools to be successful.
RHat
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jul 14 2013, 10:41 AM) *
Have you read the Technomancer fluff in the SR5 book? It all but comes out and says "You're an illegal pariah at this point, don't get caught."

~Umi


Actually, it's largely the same as it was in SR4A. Just a whole hell of a lot less detailed - and while technomancers have never been really accepted, it's not generally illegal to be one.

Remember, stuff like cutting into technomancer brains generally needs to be done at the blackest of black sites.
Umidori
It is explicitly stated that there are government bounties for your capture, with some parts of the world putting you to death.

But no, you're right, clearly being one isn't illegal. wacko.gif

~Umi
RHat
I take it you're choosing to skim past the "in some territories" part which marks that as being an exception to the general state of affairs, with the whole "punishable by death" thing being more so? I did say "generally", after all.
Umidori
And immediately after that is "The end result of this is that technomancers hide their abilities and identities, and some even their talent with programming, to avoid harassment and threats."

Note, not "some" technomancers, but rather in terms of "the general state of affairs", technomancers as a wholeare pariahs.

Now, are they actually illegal in Seattle, specifically? That in particular is not spelled out. But what is spelled out is that people fear them, employers won't hire them, corporations want to disect them, GOD has trouble tracking them and cracks down especially hard on them, and the end result is that they hide their abilities and identities.

So yeah, pariahs. nyahnyah.gif

~Umi
RHat
Well, yes, and that's the same state of affairs - in SR4, it was generally a choice between being shunned (registered, such as SINner TM's), hunted (unregistered), or shadowrunning. But if someone's technomancy is registered to their SIN, and their sprite hits OS40... What does GOD do? Why do they care?
DeathStrobe
How do mancers deal with throwback devices? They don't have a datajack to plug in their brains. I guess they might be able to daisy chain their way in with a commlink. That should work, right?
RHat
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Jul 14 2013, 06:08 PM) *
How do mancers deal with throwback devices? They don't have a datajack to plug in their brains. I guess they might be able to daisy chain their way in with a commlink. That should work, right?


Yeah, same trick (or, alternatively, a wireless adapter) was needed in SR4 if you didn't have the Skinlink echo.
Umidori
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 14 2013, 05:42 PM) *
Well, yes, and that's the same state of affairs - in SR4, it was generally a choice between being shunned (registered, such as SINner TM's), hunted (unregistered), or shadowrunning. But if someone's technomancy is registered to their SIN, and their sprite hits OS40... What does GOD do? Why do they care?

If you're messing around in the Matrix where you shouldn't be, no matter who you are, you're gonna get GOD coming down on you. Doesn't matter if you're hacking commlinks or fiddling with sprites, if GOD has decided a particular action is not allowed, that's the end of it.

Being registered as a technomancer doesn't necessarily give you free reign to practice your technomancy. A registered sex offender doesn't have free reign to molest people, after all. Or to use a less crass example, you can be licensed to own and carry a firearm, but using it for anything but target practice on private property still gets you in trouble with the police. I imagine that registering as a Technomancer is simply complying with the government's wishes to be able to track and control you, and that you do not get any privileges or allowances in return - you simply don't get thrown in prison.

~Umi
RHat
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jul 14 2013, 06:23 PM) *
If you're messing around in the Matrix where you shouldn't be, no matter who you are, you're gonna get GOD coming down on you.

Being registered as a technomancer doesn't necessarily give you free reign to practice your technomancy. A registered sex offender doesn't have free reign to molest people. Or to use a less crass example, you can be licensed to own and carry a firearm, but using it for anything but target practice on private property still gets you in trouble with the police.

~Umi


Right, but I'm referring to using sprites for strictly legitimate and legal actions. No messing around in areas where you shouldn't be or anything of the sort.
GiraffeShaman
QUOTE
yes, and that's the same state of affairs - in SR4, it was generally a choice between being shunned (registered, such as SINner TM's), hunted (unregistered), or shadowrunning. But if someone's technomancy is registered to their SIN, and their sprite hits OS40... What does GOD do? Why do they care?


Deck envy.
Umidori
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 14 2013, 06:25 PM) *
Right, but I'm referring to using sprites for strictly legitimate and legal actions. No messing around in areas where you shouldn't be or anything of the sort.

Why would you need to use a sprite for legitimate and legal actions? Why would GOD or the corps want to allow you to?

They can easily say "Use a commlink, drek for brains!" and then you have to, and that means you give them nuyen for their tech, AND you don't get to muck around with those dangerous powers of yours. It's win-win-win for the corps.

~Umi
Charon
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jul 14 2013, 09:29 PM) *
Why would you need to use a sprite for legitimate and legal actions? Why would GOD or the corps want to allow you to?


You'd need it for the same thing a decker could use an agent for non attack or sleaze action. Data gathering for example. And I'm guessing that a sprite doing legitimate things appears to GOD as an agent doing legal things in the same way that a deck doing legal things appear to be a commlink.
RHat
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jul 14 2013, 06:29 PM) *
Why would you need to use a sprite for legitimate and legal actions? Why would GOD or the corps want to allow you to?

They can easily say "Use a commlink, drek for brains!" and then you have to, and that means you give them nuyen for their tech, AND you don't get to muck around with those dangerous powers of yours. It's win-win-win for the corps.

~Umi


Plenty of reasons (especially with Data Sprites, and when the splat comes out Sleuth Sprites), but that's not an answer to the question. Also, you wouldn't have to use a commlink anyways. Your OS doesn't start for using your abilities to run a data search, for example.
RHat
QUOTE (Charon @ Jul 14 2013, 06:33 PM) *
You'd need it for the same thing a decker could use an agent for non attack or sleaze action. Data gathering for example. And I'm guessing that a sprite doing legitimate things appears to GOD as an agent doing legal things in the same way that a deck doing legal things appear to be a commlink.


That's how it should be, but sprites begin accumulating OS from the moment they're compiled - I find that this doesn't make very much sense.
Umidori
The problem is Technomancy itself. It's strange and unknown, and potentially really dangerous. The corps want to study it, and anyone they can't study they want to control or limit. So I ask you, what motivation do they have to allow Technomancers outside their influence to practice Technomancy of any kind, even on a "minor" level?

Anything you can do with Technomancy that you could instead do with technology which the corps could be selling to you is something the corps have absolutely zero reason to allow you to do with Technomancy. Why should you be allowed to use these quasi-mystical powers that GOD has trouble controlling? Do the corps at your gametable make a habit of being generous and allowing people to do things just because they want to do them?

"You'd like to be able to own and carry Assault Cannons, you say? But those are dangerous, ya know! What's that? You want us to allow them so long as you only load them with non-lethal rounds? Hrm, I dunno... why can't you just carry around a taser? Those are already legal, and already fulfill the role you claim you want your Assault Cannon to fill, and you can't sneakily load a taser with lethal assault cannon rounds behind our backs and use it level a police station. Plus, we already have a bunch of tasers for sale! They're on discount now through next Tuesday, even! No? You really want that Assault Cannon? You're absolutely sure? I can't change your mind? Well, shucks, you know I could never say no to you! Here ya go, a freshly printed Heavy Weapons license! Just remember to only use those non-lethal rounds now!"

~Umi
Rubic
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jul 14 2013, 09:44 PM) *
The problem is Technomancy itself. It's strange and unknown, and potentially really dangerous. The corps want to study it, and anyone they can't study they want to control or limit. So I ask you, what motivation do they have to allow Technomancers outside their influence to practice Technomancy of any kind, even on a "minor" level?

Anything you can do with Technomancy that you could instead do with technology which the corps could be selling to you is something the corps have absolutely zero reason to allow you to do with Technomancy. Why should you be allowed to use these quasi-mystical powers that GOD has trouble controlling? Do the corps at your gametable make a habit of being generous and allowing people to do things just because they want to do them?

"You'd like to be able to own and carry Assault Cannons, you say? But those are dangerous, ya know! What's that? You want us to allow them so long as you only load them with non-lethal rounds? Hrm, I dunno... why can't you just carry around a taser? Those are already legal, and already fulfill the role you claim you want your Assault Cannon to fill, and you can't sneakily load a taser with lethal assault cannon rounds behind our backs and use it level a police station. Plus, we already have a bunch of tasers for sale! They're on discount now through next Tuesday, even! No? You really want that Assault Cannon? You're absolutely sure? I can't change your mind? Well, shucks, you know I could never say no to you! Here ya go, a freshly printed Heavy Weapons license! Just remember to only use those non-lethal rounds now!"

~Umi

TL;DR:
The corps want to force you to spend your nuyen on buying what they're selling to do the legitimate things you want to do, even if you have no actual need for what they're selling in order to accomplish this, and they'll (ab)use the law to punish you if you DON'T pay them and suckle on the corporate teet?

So... business as usual on all fronts, then? Good? Good, next order of business, getting our sanctioned mages to mold diamond and gold into toilet paper for the executive lounge because we're running low again...
RHat
I asked what would happen once they traced you if a sprite's OS hit 40 and it had conducted absolutely no illegal actions. I'm still waiting for an answer to that question. Because, Crack Sprites aside, every single sprite has legal reasons for their use - even Fault Sprites could legitimately be used in self-defense, since Matrix damage is real damage to a technomancer. Oh, and let's not forget that GOD doesn't get to write the laws regarding technomancers in the various jurisdictions - remember that convergence entails notifying local law enforcement of your location.
Tzeentch
I suppose the corps could argue that you are basically infringing on their intellectual property by creating these matrix forms that replicate the function of licensed software. I'm grasping at straws, but it seems like a balance mechanism to prevent technomancers from creating 'hordes' of throwaway agents.
Rubic
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 14 2013, 09:52 PM) *
I asked what would happen once they traced you if a sprite's OS hit 40 and it had conducted absolutely no illegal actions. I'm still waiting for an answer to that question. Because, Crack Sprites aside, every single sprite has legal reasons for their use - even Fault Sprites could legitimately be used in self-defense, since Matrix damage is real damage to a technomancer. Oh, and let's not forget that GOD doesn't get to write the laws regarding technomancers in the various jurisdictions - remember that convergence entails notifying local law enforcement of your location.

For a corp-sponsored 'mancer on his own corp's grid, it would be "Yo, Manny, need any help on that project? I've got some guys coming on shift and soon that I could spot you." If he's not... why would he get any special privileges? That's dangerous code you're talking about there! Burn it!
RHat
QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 14 2013, 07:03 PM) *
For a corp-sponsored 'mancer on his own corp's grid, it would be "Yo, Manny, need any help on that project? I've got some guys coming on shift and soon that I could spot you." If he's not... why would he get any special privileges? That's dangerous code you're talking about there! Burn it!


That's still not an answer to the question. Assume the technomancer's abilities are registered to his national SIN. What happens when the sprite gets traced?
GiraffeShaman
GOD doesn't do anything to you if you stay in a host, not until you leave, and only if you don't just jack out. What this means is that the Corps could have Technomancers working as data clerks and sorting data with sprites, and carefully watched by network spider overseers. It sounds like "Todays Solutions to Today's Problems."
Rubic
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 14 2013, 10:44 PM) *
That's still not an answer to the question. Assume the technomancer's abilities are registered to his national SIN. What happens when the sprite gets traced?

That WAS the answer. If he's not a Corp Technomancer that is operating exclusively on his own corp's systems, or a Government Technomancer operating exclusively on his own government's individual devices, then he's a Technomancer performing unauthorized and freaky drek on the grid, which is criminal as per the laws that the corps paid quite well to ensure were enacted. Expect Convergence, you sick, mutant freak! No, not you SuRGErs, you're just mutant freaks, and a few of you have the cold.
RHat
QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 14 2013, 07:55 PM) *
That WAS the answer. If he's not a Corp Technomancer that is operating exclusively on his own corp's systems, or a Government Technomancer operating exclusively on his own government's individual devices, then he's a Technomancer performing unauthorized and freaky drek on the grid, which is criminal as per the laws that the corps paid quite well to ensure were enacted. Expect Convergence, you sick, mutant freak! No, not you SuRGErs, you're just mutant freaks, and a few of you have the cold.


And it says this where? Where is it said that, say, the UCAS has made it illegal to compile a sprite?
Umidori
You're asking for specifics when you already know the generalities.

You know that unauthorized Technomancers have bounties placed on their heads. Where? Not everywhere, no, but many places. Is the UCAS or the Seattle Metroplex one of them? We don't have anything spelling out which jurisdictions have the bounties and which don't, so no one can answer you except the devs. What should you do in the meantime? Operate under the assumptions of least liberal allowances, as suggested by the general context of the topic. Id est, if you're a SINner technomancer, assume that you're either working for a Corporation in a Corporate mandated way, or you're not authorized and are therefor in trouble.

Compare to other types of SINners with simular restrictions. If Joe Security Guard works the night shift at his local Renraku Offices, he is empowered to exercise the use of deadly force in certain events. If a team of Shadowrunners bust in, he has permission to open fire (after calling for backup). The moment he's off the clock, though, he can't go walking through Seattle firing off his Predator V at random without getting the cops called on his stupid ass. He can own the gun, he can carry the gun, he can even pet it lovingly and call it Shnookums in the privacy of his own home, but the moment he uses it in a way that is not approved, he's deep in the drek. Do we know every single approved usage, and every single non-approved one? No, certainly not. But we can make some pretty general assumptions about things.

Same with Technomancy. If you're a corporate 'mancer doing your corporate job, your 'mancy doesn't bother anyone because it has been approved for that usage. If you're a corporate 'mancer compiling sprites in a local coffee shop, that's almost certainly not an authorized use and GOD will be angry about it.

~Umi
GiraffeShaman

QUOTE
And it says this where? Where is it said that, say, the UCAS has made it illegal to compile a sprite?

I think you're putting too much value in UCAS law. The polticians that write those laws make our own politicians look like saints and survive on a steady stream of Megacorp nuyen. The same goes for the justice system that enforces them.

It would seem they wrote the fluff to support this view of Technomancers.

"GOD canít track technomancers as cheaply as
they can track deckers, and so they give little leeway or
mercy in cases where a technomancer is involved." (pg. 249)

When a spriteís code is analyzed, it looks
like a kludgy mish-mash of code snippets and junk data
that shouldnít work but does.
Sprites bend the rules of the Matrix just by existing. The Matrix isnít really sure what to do with a sprite.
When a sprite is compiled, its own Overwatch Score
starts, even though it hasnít had a chance to do anything illegal (it isnít fair to the little guys, but life ainít fair,
chummer (pg. 254)


"A spriteís owner is the technomancer that compiled
it, and when you compile a sprite, it has your Resonance
signature. If its physical location is tracked, the tracker
gets your physical location instead; this also happens
when a demiGOD converges on the hapless little sprit" (Pg. 254)

Probaly a balance issue. Because a Decker's Agent shares his condition monitor.
RHat
QUOTE (GiraffeShaman @ Jul 14 2013, 09:17 PM) *
I think you're putting too much value in UCAS law. The polticians that write those laws make our own politicians look like saints and survive on a steady stream of Megacorp nuyen. The same goes for the justice system that enforces them.


I'm not denying that such a possibility exists. However, if it's the case that such laws exist in the default setting of the game it must be made explicitly clear.

And from a design standpoint, I'd consider it a very bad move. Also, if we're gonna get into Condition Monitors... Why must they once again write the Matrix rules without remembering that Matrix damage is real damage to technomancers?
GiraffeShaman
QUOTE
I'm not denying that such a possibility exists. However, if it's the case that such laws exist in the default setting of the game it must be made explicitly clear.

I would agree that it'd be nice to know this law. (Just as I'd love to know more about how GOD, the grids, and G-Men function) But you can probaly assume that such a law is NOT on the books. It's the enforcement side I mentioned. The Megas can do what they want, with a few exceptions. Some middle manager can murder your grandma for kicks and get away with it. Bad PR is one of the few limitations on corp actions. And it seems right now TMs have bad PR. (Especially ironic with the Azzies having good PR) Actually, the AI Pulsar won his battle against the Megas using PR.
RHat
QUOTE (GiraffeShaman @ Jul 14 2013, 09:49 PM) *
I would agree that it'd be nice to know this law. (Just as I'd love to know more about how GOD, the grids, and G-Men function) But you can probaly assume that such a law is NOT on the books. It's the enforcement side I mentioned. The Megas can do what they want, with a few exceptions. Some middle manager can murder your grandma for kicks and get away with it. Bad PR is one of the few limitations on corp actions. And it seems right now TMs have bad PR. (Especially ironic with the Azzies having good PR) Actually, the AI Pulsar won his battle against the Megas using PR.


In regards to technomancers, PR, and megas, I'm gonna point you to the PR evisceration they suffered in Emergence.
SpellBinder
In story, bet the common SINner still believes technomancers can hack the metahuman brain.
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