So... Technomancers, What's going on? Options

[RHat]

In story, bet the common SINner still believes technomancers can hack the metahuman brain.

I imagine there's about as much misinformation on the subject of technomancers as there is on mages.

[Jaid]

In story, bet the common SINner still believes technomancers can hack the metahuman brain.

in SR4, that wasn't very far off the truth.

(granted, the main difference between a hacker and a technomancer in that regard was ease of access, rather than feasibility).

[DeathStrobe]

In story, bet the common SINner still believes technomancers can hack the metahuman brain.

Yeah...of course...nothing but stories...

Resonance Trodes and Psychotropic options...nope...never heard of them... NOTHING TO SEE HERE! Move along.

[Sengir]

While it's nice that you guys go to such ends to justify why corps would want TMs to be like they are, you are kinda missing the point: TMs are supposed to be a playable option, and their fluff is that they are supposed to be on good terms with the matrix.

If bioware suffered complete apoptosis 2D6 weeks after installation you sure cold explain that with corporate moneymaking and control, but that wouldn't make it any better from a game design perspective, or solve the fluff discrepancy between "it's a natural fit to the body" and "it gets aggressively rejected after short time".

[Abschalten]

I had been excited for SR5, but after seeing the Nerf Bat reaming that technomancers got, I don't know that I am anymore. I don't know if it was just that somebody at Catalyst had a raging hard-on for deckers, or somebody absolutely loathed technomancers and wanted to see them marginalized and made useless... but the death of a thousand cuts that the technomancer has suffered has just eviscerated them as a playable and useful character archetype.

There's almost no way to get them to work without a pile of crazy house rules. I wouldn't even know where to begin to fix it. The karma costs are still insane if you want any useful echoes. They have nowhere near the versatility of the decker (which was their defining characteristic in SR4!) They LOST the ability to form their own PAN with a bionode. Sprites are a liability now. Anytime they fail an illegal test their Stun track starts filling in. Wait, scratch that. Anytime they do damn near ANYTHING their track starts filling in. "Threading a complex form" is just "casting a spell" with another name. And on and on.

Seriously, fuck this. I'd like to know who wrote these godawful rules so I can start burning effigies of them.

[Moirdryd]

I am not familliar with anything about TMs from SR4, but I like the way they work in SR5 as a logical evolution of the process that spawned the original Otaku (and let's face it Technomancers are the Otaku of sr4-5. Well done Deus). I also like the fact that while the Matrix is their Natural element they are treated with hostility by GOD. I seriously don't see the lack of flexibility that people are talking about here, Technomancers really have the option to be a Ghost in the Machine if played cleverly. Sure Sprites can be a liability but only as much as say an Agent in many respects. A Technomancer really has to be careful, but they can also me the matrix do some crazy stuff. I really think there is room to grow this archetype in the future sourcebooks.

[Mäx]

I had been excited for SR5, but after seeing the Nerf Bat reaming that technomancers got, I don't know that I am anymore. I don't know if it was just that somebody at Catalyst had a raging hard-on for deckers, or somebody absolutely loathed technomancers and wanted to see them marginalized and made useless... but the death of a thousand cuts that the technomancer has suffered has just eviscerated them as a playable and useful character archetype.

Considering how badly everyone else got nerfed too(especially the poor sammies) it's definedly the "hard-on for deckers" option.

[X-Kalibur]

Apparently people don't remember the Otaku of SR3 so well. At least your resonance isn't decreasing as you get older.

[Mäx]

Apparently people don't remember the Otaku of SR3 so well. At least your resonance isn't decreasing as you get older.

Why should they, Otaku are ancient history.

[X-Kalibur]

Why should they, Otaku are ancient history.

My point being that while TMs aren't the impossible to detect as they hack every system ever (SR4) (or have threaded command for crazy DP using drones) they also aren't nearly as limited in capacity or time as the Otaku of old.

[SpellBinder]

Considering how badly everyone else got nerfed too(especially the poor sammies) it's definedly the "hard-on for deckers" option.

I'd wager so. My first thoughts about doing a TM involve the character being a decker/rigger first and a TM as a fallback option.

And that's assuming I feel the motivation to actually flush out such a character.

[Jaid]

My point being that while TMs aren't the impossible to detect as they hack every system ever (SR4) (or have threaded command for crazy DP using drones) they also aren't nearly as limited in capacity or time as the Otaku of old.

"you can suck at your job for a lot longer than people 20 years ago could be good at their job" is not a very persuasive argument...

(note: i still haven't gotten around to reading the technomancer section, or the matrix rules in general. i am not saying that technomancers do suck, although the reports of those who presumably *have* read it are discouraging, i'm just providing my opinion on the argument made above).

[Jaid]

just noticed another (subtle, but huge) nerf to technomancers unless this is just supposed to be fluff text:

"Fading can only be healed by the body’s natural
healing process, which means taking some time to rest."

considering that the only advantage technomancers have in exchange for not being able to simulate regular programs the way they used to are things that cause fading, this is a pretty serious nerf. particularly if they take physical damage, which means that they could be recovering for *days* at a time.

screw analytical mind. if you want to be a technomancer, take quick healer. you're going to need it. and don't dump body.

granted, this mirrors drain, but it's still a definite nerf.

[X-Kalibur]

Can dumpshock/Black DV on hot-simmed deckers be healed magically or with medkits?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Can dumpshock/Black DV on hot-simmed deckers be healed magically or with medkits?

I would expect so...

[Sengir]

I seriously don't see the lack of flexibility that people are talking about here, Technomancers really have the option to be a Ghost in the Machine if played cleverly. Sure Sprites can be a liability but only as much as say an Agent in many respects.

The decrease of flexibility is quite plain to see: TMs used to be able to make up every existing program on the fly. Now they have a separate list of CFs, and stuff for other purposes than hacking seems dearly underrepresented. I'm not sure if it's a lack or just a decrease, but certainly less.

As for Sprites vs. agents, how much OS do agents generate by merely existing, again? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jaid]

no restriction on dumpshock/biofeedback, so yes.

anyways, so i've gotten around to looking at the complex forms. perhaps someday, they will publish complex forms that aren't crap. that day was not July 11. i now know not to bother investing heavily in resonance priority. resonance is kind of a crappy stat, and complex forms would be awesome if they weren't restricted to targets that make them functionally useless.

for example, there are complex forms that raise or lower matrix stats... these would be fairly useful, except they can only be used on devices.

oh goody. i can lower a matrix attribute of a completely inconsequential target, or raise the matrix attribute of the device that i'm not using to hack with because i'm a technomancer. (edit: forgot. you can also lower the matrix attribute of other deckers, which is only useful if you've been spotted and are getting murdered by infinitely spawning IC at the same time. oh goody).

i can force something to take a single matrix action... but with outrageous fading (7 points of fading for the vast majority of matrix actions), and most devices don't have useful matrix attributes anyways. i suppose this could be vaguely useful if i owned a really awesome cyberdeck and a bunch of programs, but at that point... why the hell am i not just playing a decker?

in general, the best complex forms are about equal to programs. or at least, they would be, if they didn't come with fading damage, your matrix damage track being your personal stun damage track, and requiring you to concentrate on them. and also adding an extra level of punishment for getting augmented... let's not forget that.

unless, of course, you're just there to support an actual decker. if that's the case, you can actually do some pretty awesome stuff. you can reduce an icon's overwatch score, you can make someone stop gaining overwatch score over time, boost their matrix attributes... yup... you can do a great job of making a decker pretty awesome. if you can find a way to tag along in the matrix, there's also a small chance you'll be able to reduce the attributes of a device that anyone actually cares about for them, too.

the one shining ray in a sea of darkness is that apparently, via the resonance, you can edit things *super fast* compared to a decker. for anything else... yeah, screw it, you're there to support a decker who actually gets useful effects from his programs.

i sure hope sprites are bloody amazing, because right now, if i was going to make a technomancer, i'd be looking square at priority C. if priority D was an option where i could start off with resonance 1, i'd probably pick that, actually.

i sincerely hope i'm missing something ludicrously awesome, because right now, it looks like playing a technomancer is something you would only ever consider because you're willing to take a hit in effectiveness to be one.

[Moirdryd]

Reduce your own OS, Hide from GOD, Reduce Firewall ratings, Ignore Grid Penalties. I think youre seriously overlooking what a TM can do because they've changed how they work.

[Epicedion]

Reduce your own OS, Hide from GOD, Reduce Firewall ratings, Ignore Grid Penalties. I think youre seriously overlooking what a TM can do because they've changed how they work.

Also Tattletale is hilarious. Point at another dude and watch GOD converge on him.

[Moirdryd]

Just dipped back into my PDF. Un resisted Matrix damage and don't forget you can use anything that has a target of Device on a persona too. Plus Decrease Matrix Attribute and target the Host! Dump noise on SecSpiders and Ice and hack from across the globe if so desired.

[Jaid]

reduce your own OS: oh good, that's wonderful news, because you've generally got less to invest in actually succeeding in actions than a hacker (who also generally suffers less for not succeeding). so, all the extra time you're taking because you had to invest in skills and being a technomancer may cause you to accrue more OS, but hey, at least you'll be able to afford that extra time. if, that is, you don't just get murdered by infinitely spawning IC, which is to my mind a much larger concern due to the fact that IC spawns the instant you're discovered, not after ~10-15 illegal actions (or more).

reduce firewall ratings: on devices only. not hosts. not IC. only on devices. if you could reduce the matrix attributes of the local patrol IC, or knock the host down a few pegs in it's attempts to locate you, it would be pretty awesome. because it only works on devices, the only time you care about it particularly is when there is a decker actively looking for you. in which case, it is quite likely that the INFINITELY RESPAWNING IC is a bigger threat.

hide from GOD: again, better used on someone else. unlike reducing OS, this is actually in many cases completely inconsequential; 15 minutes is an absolutely ridiculously long time in the matrix. you'll probably generate 40 OS loooooong before the time limit comes into play, unless you're not doing anything. if you're not doing anything, you can just log out; oh hey, look, no more OS until i start doing illegal things again.

ignore grid penalties: no effect in a host, easily fixed by getting into the other grid if you're in public (sadly, there doesn't seem to be much information on buying access to different grids, although lifestyles indicate it should be an option. i expect once *those* rules come out, we'll discover that this is an incredibly trivial benefit worth maybe a few thousand nuyen a month... unless you actually believe that buying internet access is super-expensive).

[Moirdryd]

Jaid, IC counts as Persona so you can target them with any Device target CF

[Moirdryd]

Also, I'd totally let CFs target Hosts if they target Devices.

[Jaid]

Just dipped back into my PDF. Un resisted Matrix damage and don't forget you can use anything that has a target of Device on a persona too. Plus Decrease Matrix Attribute and target the Host! Dump noise on SecSpiders and Ice and hack from across the globe if so desired.

hmmm... ok, didn't notice the special rule that "device" apparently means devices *and* personas. so you can get crazy limits, which mostly won't matter. reducing another persona's limits is pretty good, though. would be a heck of a lot better if it didn't mean you had to sustain it, but this can actually do far more for reducing your (or another person's) OS than anything else, since if they are limited to 0 hits, you can do whatever you want to them without generating OS. ok, so that's one worthwhile complex form. you can't target a host with it, though. hosts are not devices, and they are not personas.

the matrix damage is crap: yes, it's unresisted. no, it's not particularly superior to using an attack action, especially with the programs that beef up attack whereas this is just net hits. the only advantage is that it doesn't cause OS increase. you will generally speaking get rid of something much much quicker by actually using an attack action, which deals your attack rating (afaict) plus net hits, as a general rule.

and especially since attacking things will lead in fairly short order to the infinitely spawning IC problem, it's something you pretty much either don't want to do, or used only if you don't care about attracting attention because you basically just announced your presence in no uncertain terms.

noise... ummm... ok... if you don't mind announcing your presence. you'd be better off using your actions to get the job done and run away, or to simply destroy the target. unless they have an absolutely terrible dice pool, this isn't doing much to help you out, and it's way too noticeable.

[GiraffeShaman]

I haven't greatly gotten into TMs yet, but it would appear that sprites are fantastic inside hosts, simply by the fact that they have their own damage tracks and thus are sort of like spirits. Highly useful when you've got armies of IC spawning. The downside of Agents sharing a damage track with the Decker is a big one, in addition to it costing a Program slot.

Also, it appears that they focused heavily on giving us the tools to run shadowruns in this book, which means they focused heavily on what goes down inside hosts and were light on what goes down on the grids. There'll likely be more effective options for TMs on grids in the future. In the meantime, everyone is immune to GOD inside hosts, and so creating a mini army of sprites seems an effective option to me, unless I'm missing something.

From what little fluff that there is, it doesn't actually seem like they built GOD just to fuck with the TMs. It's more like they built it how they wished and simply didn't care to go out of their way to make things easy on sprites. Their big priority was making sure that their business transactions go faster and high priority traffic for people paying big fees for premium grid services. There was no benefit to them to make things easy on sprites, if they even thought about them in the design at all.