So... Technomancers, What's going on? Options

[Epicedion]

I see TMs as being able to diffuse the Attack attribute down to 1 on any wayward IC and then go about their business hacking, without a huge fear of retribution.

Or generate Noise on a decker and push them out of a fight.

They can still do regular matrix actions, of course, but it will be expensive to take resonance versions of programs -- most of which they won't need due to having better limits in general than a comparable decker, and being able to buff themselves with complex forms.

Overall it looks like they're good in a different way -- a decker may in fact be better at basic hacking but TMs appear to have a huge amount of utility in CFs and sprites, while deckers will be a little more predictable in their loadouts and actions.

[Jaid]

well, i will say that it looks like sprites are pretty good. i'm a bit disappointed with the echoes available; most of them just boost your matrix attributes, which boosts your limits.

but hey, apparently technomancers *can* get access to programs... all they have to do is initiate. it's actually one of the better ones (the control rig one is almost essential if you want to be a rigger, and there are a few tests, mostly defensive, where attributes actually contribute directly.

some of the sprite powers are awesome. like the one that delays IC, which means that it can delay the inevitable endless of wave of ICey doom. did i mention technomancers are great to bring along so you can buff your decker buddy? well, diagnostics still has the same wording as 4th edition, so a decent sprite can really boost your dice pools, and make you actually need the limit increases you could give him. too bad you don't use any devices, though. and gremlins is pretty amazing too. cookie initially sounds good, but unfortunately only provides one update at the end (and is time-limited by the fact that you need a sprite to use it, and the sprite has to stick around, and it's an illegal action to place a cookie... which, being a technomancer, you can at least mitigate).

over all, my advice: at least until the matrix book comes out and there's better support for technomancers, i wouldn't make a technomancer unless you also have a regular decker in the group. the programs in the core book are just too good to miss out on, and the complex forms in the core book are mostly kinda "meh". good quality decks are not hard to get, fading is absolutely brutal, and sprites and submersion are pretty good, but overall not good enough to be worth the added investment required to be a technomancer.

obviously, if your reason for being a technomancer is "i want to be a technomancer", then be a technomancer. but if it's that you want to be able to be really effective in the matrix, i'd go with a decker for now.

oh, and a couple other things:

1) apparently asking your sprite to do nothing in the resonance realms is now a task. it really feels like they tried to limit being able to have a useful stable of sprites available, which is understandable, but still a bit of a nerf.

2) if you were wondering, decompiling is still generally as useless as ever. there are better things to do.

[Moirdryd]

1) True
2) For now... (wondering what'll be happening with AIs because I see that being handy if they rock out)

[Abschalten]

1) True
2) For now... (wondering what'll be happening with AIs because I see that being handy if they rock out)

Decompiling will do nothing to AIs, since AIs are not Resonance beings.

In SR4 Decompiling was the worst skill in the game. In SR5 Decompiling is EVEN WORSE, since your Limit on the test is the Sprite's Level.

(In general, I see the lack of Banishing and Decompiling fixes as a huge missed opportunity.)

[Moirdryd]

That depends on lots of fluff and some of the Threats information and many other as yet unrevealed things. Especially as the Resonance seems to still be The Resonance, even though it's now a completely different Matrix and The Resonance was Deus's thing (perhaps even IS Deus).

[quentra]

TMs seem to be focused on decker buffing. They seem a bit shit solo.

[Rubic]

TMs seem to be focused on decker buffing. They seem a bit shit solo.

In other words, they get to Jazz Hands for the decker while the decker claims to be too awesome for words? Can we geek the decker first and just pay off the mage?

[quentra]

In other words, they get to Jazz Hands for the decker while the decker claims to be too awesome for words? Can we geek the decker first and just pay off the mage?

That's always my plan.

[CodeBreaker]

So, Puppet Master combined with Tattletale is interesting. It hurts like a bitch, but you can basically have GOD act as your personal attack dog against anyone who isn't Sanctioned. You use Puppet Master against your unsuspecting target and force their device to perform a Check Overwatch Score action. That's a Simple Action, so you are aiming at a threshold of 2, and it is an Illegal Action so the target will begin to build up their OS.

Because they now have an OS you can use Tattletale to rapidly push their OS up above 40. If you have a stable of registered sprites available you can have them sustain each Tattletale up to its P duration. If you have multiple technomancers you can have each throw their own Tattletale at the target.

Against a normal, legitimate individual they will have no idea their gear is at risk until it is already fried. GOD are going to have a few questions for them. Though a decker who runs Baby Monitor will quickly notice what's up, if you run a Puppet Master shutting it down before you start the primary hack you can still get away with it.

Useless against Sanctioned people though.

[Tycho]

Also the Fading will put yu out of buisiness.

The Fading of CFS is a joke compared to Magic:

A Mage can Mind Controll a bunch of people for F+1 Drain (which is iirc the hightest Drain in the book) while a Technomancer has Fading of L+4 for making a Target do 1 Matrix Action as soon as he has an Action availble

[RHat]

That depends on lots of fluff and some of the Threats information and many other as yet unrevealed things. Especially as the Resonance seems to still be The Resonance, even though it's now a completely different Matrix and The Resonance was Deus's thing (perhaps even IS Deus).

Nope. AI's are already a known factor, and they have absolutely nothing to do with Resonance as of SR4. Nothing at all. AI's are also nothing LIKE those seen prior to Crash 2.0. There'd need to be a truly massive change to alter that.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Apparently people don't remember the Otaku of SR3 so well. At least your resonance isn't decreasing as you get older.

I think that Otaku were probably my least favorite part about SR3, though they don't quite rub me as bad in SR 5.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Jaid]

So, Puppet Master combined with Tattletale is interesting. It hurts like a bitch, but you can basically have GOD act as your personal attack dog against anyone who isn't Sanctioned. You use Puppet Master against your unsuspecting target and force their device to perform a Check Overwatch Score action. That's a Simple Action, so you are aiming at a threshold of 2, and it is an Illegal Action so the target will begin to build up their OS.

Because they now have an OS you can use Tattletale to rapidly push their OS up above 40. If you have a stable of registered sprites available you can have them sustain each Tattletale up to its P duration. If you have multiple technomancers you can have each throw their own Tattletale at the target.

Against a normal, legitimate individual they will have no idea their gear is at risk until it is already fried. GOD are going to have a few questions for them. Though a decker who runs Baby Monitor will quickly notice what's up, if you run a Puppet Master shutting it down before you start the primary hack you can still get away with it.

Useless against Sanctioned people though.

yeah, i was briefly considering something like that. then i realized it's pretty much nothing more than a more involved way of trolling someone. you know what else could generate almost the exact same effect? gutting them with a couple of attack actions, then rebooting. 3 seconds later, your oversight is gone, you didn't get a bunch of fading along the way, and you didn't have to burn a high priority pick on being a technomancer. as an added bonus, it also works on people who ignore OS, which includes the majority of the targets you would really want to use this sort of tactic on anyways...

i'm not sure that i would say that technomancers are really focused on buffing a decker... it's more that a technomancer has buffs, the decker has better buffs that cost a lot less and don't cause fading, but most of the technomancer's buffs can also work on the decker while the decker's buffs only work on himself.

i think you could build a technomancer and make it work decently well. but i think you could also make a decker that would work noticeably better.

[Sengir]

Reduce your own OS, Hide from GOD, Reduce Firewall ratings, Ignore Grid Penalties. I think youre seriously overlooking what a TM can do because they've changed how they work.

Reduce OS and hide from GOD: Those are not advantages but small compensations for major disadvantages. For an extra L-1 Fading and -2 for sustaining the CF you can prevent your Data Sprite from accumulating OS due to its existence, how great is that? /sarcasm
Reduce Attributes: Has potential, personally I'd use it to reduce the Processing (limit for perception) of folks who might spot me
Ignore Grids: What are grids? Oh right, the two pages of rules to decide whether you get a -2 or not. If you really plan on using the rule, this might be useful I guess. It's also one of the few CFs which won't murder you with Fading, hooray!

Using Puppet Master to force an Invite Mark action sounds fun, but as others pointed out, the Fading makes that a rather suicidal fun. Unless you have a Pain Editor (which now also blocks out penalties from physical damage, btw).

That depends on lots of fluff and some of the Threats information and many other as yet unrevealed things.

If they took a giant dump at fluff and made AIs = Resonance, we'd just have more targets against which Decompiling is a worse choice than whacking them.

[RHat]

If they took a giant dump at fluff and made AIs = Resonance, we'd just have more targets against which Decompiling is a worse choice than whacking them.

Pretty much the only time Decompiling is ever useful is to save a corrupted sprite or to deal with a hostile free sprite (since taking them down in cybercombat just means that you're rid of them for a week or two).

[Moirdryd]

Unless of course you take something like Focussed Concerntration. Hide from God, no penalty.

[Jaid]

Unless of course you take something like Focussed Concerntration. Hide from God, no penalty.

sure, you can pay extra for that quality. but as i said, accumulating score is only a problem if you plan on doing nothing for a very long time.

if you do nothing for a very long time, you can probably reset your score with no meaningful drawbacks by simply rebooting. 3 seconds later, no score. you go right back to 0, and you aren't building any up until you do your next illegal thing.

considering that doing just about anything in the matrix is unlikely to take more than about 6 seconds, i really think people are getting a bit excited over the ability to ignore time-based OS increases.

except for sprites, of course, which generate OS just for having been compiled.

but then again, that means you can't use any of the other complex forms that are supposed to compensate for not having programs unless you take the -2 sustaining penalty for that. since afaict, you can only have one focused concentration quality.

which is kinda a bad thing, because last i checked, complex forms are supposed to be the things that compensate for you not getting programs (although of course, if you submerge, you can get 1 program each time. depressingly, blowing 13 karma for a program that costs between 50-250 nuyen is better than most of the other echoes. the only ones that are flat-out better are overclock, which is the only current way to boost matrix initiative beyond 4d6, mind over machine, which can let you rig (obviously only better if you want to be a rigger, but still, a very strong option), and after that, just emulate programs).

[Sengir]

Unless of course you take something like Focussed Concerntration. Hide from God, no penalty.

That still leaves the need to take a quality and the fading between you and useful Sprites

[Epicedion]

depressingly, blowing 13 karma for a program that costs between 50-250 nuyen is better than most of the other echoes. the only ones that are flat-out better are overclock, which is the only current way to boost matrix initiative beyond 4d6, mind over machine, which can let you rig (obviously only better if you want to be a rigger, but still, a very strong option), and after that, just emulate programs).

Of note, Technomancers don't have a program limit. Having 6 or 8 active programs could be a huge advantage. Costly, but huge.

[Jaid]

Of note, Technomancers don't have a program limit. Having 6 or 8 active programs could be a huge advantage. Costly, but huge.

having a bunch of skills at higher values instead of having to invest large amounts of karma into buying 50/250 nuyen programs is definitely a huge advantage.

plus, for an extra 50 nuyen, you can store (but not run at the same time) multiple copies of the program that lets you reconfigure your entire cyberdeck including programs and attributes (note: technomancers can never swap attributes either). that would mean that, with the cost of a free action, you can swap out your entire program selection (and make the attributes match, too). for the most part, you don't need all the programs at the same time. being able to freely swap between two sets of programs (and make the attributes match up with what you're doing at that time) is ridiculously good. being able to have the *right* 4-5 programs at a time is way better than being able to have a pre-set 6 or 8 active programs at a time, imo. getting that in addition to having more karma to spend on skills, which is now the main way to boost your actual dicepool? well that's just gravy.

i mean, right now, eventually, the technomancer will get 500 karma or something like that and will totally make the decker look like a chump. but until then, i'm really not convinced that being a technomancer is worth it. besides, by the time you can afford all those submersions (123-188 karma for 6-8 submersions, not including possible cost to raise resonance) on your technomancer, the decker could be rocking a fairlight excalibur for all we know and using his starter deck for his pet attack agent (which will have a separate matrix damage track, incidentally). or could have some pretty danged impressive combat augmentations that make him crazy tough. meanwhile the technomancer takes matrix damage as stun damage, and takes penalties due to matrix damage (the decker doesn't until he's bricked), plus has to deal with fading damage that doesn't go away until rest, plus can't take augmentations to keep him alive in combat without screwing himself over in the matrix.

the technomancer really needed to be crazy powerful in the matrix to compensate for the fact that deckers now have to travel around with everyone else, because the technomancer is severely lacking in the area of keeping themselves alive in the meat. instead, they're weak at meat combat, and they're sorta decent in the matrix for the most part. they're in a very rough spot right now.

[Epicedion]

I've been working on a list of nasty things Technomancers can do:

Technomancer takes the Mind over Machine Echo and Puppeteer. Technomancer attaches hand grenade to bug microdrone. Puppeteer forces Jump Into Rigged Device matrix action on enemy rigger to force him into your microdrone, triggers grenade. Enemy rigger takes half the grenade damage (drone has no dice to resist it) as biofeedback and then takes dumpshock.

[quentra]

Hey look, TMs now have to have at least one submersion to not suck! That's totally OP, mages and deckers obviously can't do anything until an initiation or an upgrade. They're totally not usable out of the box.

[Epicedion]

Hey look, TMs now have to have at least one submersion to not suck! That's totally OP, mages and deckers obviously can't do anything until an initiation or an upgrade. They're totally not usable out of the box.

Well they can still cloud targets with noise until they fall offline, force an enemy decker to data spike his own team's slaves devices (with full marks), force enemies to reboot causing dumpshock, etc.

[quentra]

All while taking fading and direct stun damage. Joy.

[Jaid]

I've been working on a list of nasty things Technomancers can do:

Technomancer takes the Mind over Machine Echo and Puppeteer. Technomancer attaches hand grenade to bug microdrone. Puppeteer forces Jump Into Rigged Device matrix action on enemy rigger to force him into your microdrone, triggers grenade. Enemy rigger takes half the grenade damage (drone has no dice to resist it) as biofeedback and then takes dumpshock.

OR:

decker configures deck for making people a sad panda: sets attack to 7 (assuming the best chargen deck that doesn't involve attempting to cheese the used cyberware rules), loads programs biofeedback, hammer, decryption, lockdown.

each time you attack, you deal 10 + net hits matrix damage. most likely, damage will be in the same neighbourhood as the grenade damage, you can do it again if you want the next round (if there's any need), you can overflow it as well, and it didn't cost you an absurd amount of fading, giving up a high priority pick in chargen, making all augmentations a bad idea, etc. and you don't have to sacrifice a drone or draw attention in the meat world with a grenade. and the only way for them to escape is to jack out and take dumpshock damage, so you're not missing out on that either.

puppeteer is great for hilarious trolls, if you don't mind needing to go lie down for several hours afterwords, i'll grant you that.