Mystic Adepts, house rule Options

[Thanee]

So, Mystic Adepts seem a wee bit too awesome as they are now.

What I am thinking about currently is the following house rule:

Mystic Adepts combine the aspects of Aspected Magician (without Astral Perception) and Adept (no Karma cost for initial PP, but gain only 1 PP per 2 full points of Magic, plus full PP from Metamagic).

What do you think?


For Priorities, they should get an extra entry, though:

A - Mystic Adept: Magic 6, one Rating 5 Magical skill group, Astral Perception

B - Mystic Adept: Magic 4, one Rating 4 Magical skill group

C - Mystic Adept: Magic 3, one Rating 3 Magical skill

Bye
Thanee

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Interesting. I had been thinking of something similar on the Aspected Front: "Mystics Adepts Chargen as an Aspected Mage of one Priority Level lower. Must choose an Aspect. During Chargen, Mystic Adepts start with no spells or Powerpoints but may buy them as follows: spells cost 5 Karma (normal) and Powerpoints cost 5 Karma."

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Elfenlied]

I believe Mystic Adept will be fine when PPs are 5 Karma each.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

I believe Mystic Adept will be fine when PPs are 5 Karma each.

From what I've read and heard from professional game designers, there's a general consensus that whenever there isn't a meaningful trade-off between choices there is immediately an identifiable optimized choice, and that makes the overall game suffer with respect to how it could have been.

And actually, looking for meaningful choices appears to reinforce the Everything has a Price component that is prevalent in SR5.

It appears like there is not a meaningful choice for Mystic Adepts, however. They look like an obvious choice -- Potentially full Adept powers + Full spell casting + Full Conjuring. Limited solely from Astral Projection.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Shinobi Killfist]

I believe Mystic Adept will be fine when PPs are 5 Karma each.

IMO its not even close. 30 karma for 6 PPs of adept abilities and they grow with your magic rating or by giving up a metamagic. No other 30 karma expenditure comes close.

[Falconer]

Just wait til the magic book comes out and a spirit type with 'astral gateway' joins the fray again. Then it'll be the defacto optimal choice.

At least in the past mystic adepts had to think hard about how they split their magic, debates about how that split worked notwithstanding.

I think I would have preferred if aspected types had to pick two specialties not just one. And mystic adepts were type of aspected mage... pick two out of... sorcery, conjuring, alchemy, or mystic adept. You might see some mages take it and foreswear alchemy... or an alchemist who can dabble in spirits (that just screams halloween style 'witch' to me).

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

For Priorities, they should get an extra entry, though:

A - Mystic Adept: Magic 6, one Rating 5 Magical skill group, Astral Perception

B - Mystic Adept: Magic 4, one Rating 4 Magical skill group

C - Mystic Adept: Magic 3, one Rating 2 Magical skill

Bye
Thanee

Ahh, you edited your post since my initial response -- Yes, this looks very close to what I was considering.

I like that it forces a real choice between buying spells, and buying Power Points, and allows a player to have the flexibility of both with clear tradeoffs without the obvious, no-brain uber-choice of getting both with minimal cost.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Glyph]

IMO its not even close. 30 karma for 6 PPs of adept abilities and they grow with your magic rating or by giving up a metamagic. No other 30 karma expenditure comes close.

Exactly. I don't even mind them being strong out of the starting gate. It is advancement that is screwed up, because instead of having to choose between magical ability and power points, they get both.

[Elfenlied]

IMO its not even close. 30 karma for 6 PPs of adept abilities and they grow with your magic rating or by giving up a metamagic. No other 30 karma expenditure comes close.

5 Karma per PP for advancement also is what I meant.

[Falconer]

If we were talking 5x new rank in PP's it would be one thing... but we're talking 5karma per PP flat... that's the problem.

At 5x new rank essentially they're buying a second cheaper magic attribute. At 5 flat it's almost a no brainer.... 7 magic or 6 magic & 6 PP... sometimes you just have to wonder who writes this drek or thinks it's not an obvious choice.


For those who don't follow my logic... under the old game you had say a magic 4, 2PP split. To advance the character you would need 35 karma for magic 7 then the hard choice. At a 5x new rank... it would only be 25karma for a new Magic-mana, or 15karma for an extra PP. 40karma would get you one of each as opposed to the old one where 35 only got you one or the other. Still a huge buff... but at that cost it's still a hard choice.

At 5 flat it's simply a PP surtax every time you raise magic.

[Thanee]

Ahh, you edited your post since my initial response

Heh. Yep, exactly after reading your response, actually, since it made me aware, that the regular priorities for Magicians don't work well for Aspected Magicians. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I like that it forces a real choice between buying spells, and buying Power Points, ...

My approach is slightly different, though. Mystic Adepts cannot buy PP, they get them for free, but only half as many as regular Adepts.

I basically want them to be not quite as good as Magicians and not quite as good as Adepts in their own field, but while they are kinda half-Magicians and half-Adepts, they only lack power in quantity not in quality.

Bye
Thanee

[Elfenlied]

Under the old system, Mystic Adept were only viable in niche builds involving Heightened Concentration or some other crazy optimization. Unless the game reached a ridiculous amount of Karma, they were almost always behind.

5x new Rank means they essentially have to buy Magic twice, and a 50/50 is not viable. For hybrids to work, they need about 60-70% of the base functionality of their parent classes. Being able to do both things sounds good on paper, but your action economy is still the same.

[Falconer]

Elfenlied: I strongly disagree... I played a few mystic adepts and none ever had any problems. Either with the restrictive force cap or not (depending on GM it was played either way). Using powers like 'ability boost' reaction on top of 'increase initiative' and going for other bargain 0.25PP adept powers was very effective. You only needed a reasonable focus and not try to be a jack of all trades.


As far as your other comment you've completely missed the point. Buying 2 different attributes to 3 each... is only 15 (assuming you're starting with 2 magic and didn't use a special point to raise it). + 5 + 10 + 15 == 45 karma total.

Under SR4 rules starting with 3 magic and no power point you'd be looking at 20 + 25 + 30 karma... or 75 karma plus the need to initiate sooner. It's the exact same problem as the adept attribute raising powers... raise my raw magic score repeatedly... or just raise the attribute right away... even at 0.75 per rank it was normally cheaper to raise the attribute and pay the karma for magic for things you couldn't get otherwise... simply because you'd have to keep stacking more attribute points on top of an already high attribute.

Also quite contrary to your point... 50/50 is extremely viable since each rank of the 50/50 is far cheaper than the whole shebang. Your comment is no different than All4Bigguns stating that it's impossible to build a balanced character with less than 1000 karma. It reflects skewed expectations of what is 'balanced' or in-line with other classes.

If going for rules lawyer/powergamer I will go for mystic adept in SR5 lickity split!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Under the old system, Mystic Adept were only viable in niche builds involving Heightened Concentration or some other crazy optimization. Unless the game reached a ridiculous amount of Karma, they were almost always behind.

I disagree with that assessment. They may be a bit behind, but that DOES NOT make them non-viable. My Current Mystic Adept does not have either Adept Centering nor Heightened Concentration, and is split 3 Sorcery, 2 Adept. He works VERY well for what he does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think you will find that a common sentiment.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

I disagree with that assessment. They may be a bit behind, but that DOES NOT make them non-viable. My Current Mystic Adept does not have either Adept Centering nor Heightened Concentration, and is split 3 Sorcery, 2 Adept. He works VERY well for what he does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think you will find that a common sentiment.

But you agree that Shadowrun 4th Edition has the least desirable implementation of Mystic Adepts, right?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But you agree that Shadowrun 4th Edition has the least desirable implementation of Mystic Adepts, right?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Actually, I prefer SR4A's Implementation over previous Editions (SR1/2/3), and have played several over the years (My Current Mys-Ad character is just over 300 Karma at this point). It remains to be seen if I will prefer 5th Edition's take on them. They do seem to have very few drawbacks, in comparison to 4th Edition. Will have to see. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Actually, I prefer SR4A's Implementation over previous Editions (SR1/2/3), and have played several over the years (My Current Mys-Ad character is just over 300 Karma at this point). It remains to be seen if I will prefer 5th Edition's take on them. They do seem to have very few drawbacks, in comparison to 4th Edition. Will have to see. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Whoa, wait a second, hold up. I wasn't expecting that. That didn't sound like the a full bored endorsement of SR 4!

Hold up, hold up. Are you feeling alright, Tymeaus?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Whoa, wait a second, hold up. I wasn't expecting that. That didn't sound like the a full bored endorsement of SR 4!

Hold up, hold up. Are you feeling alright, Tymeaus?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Heh... Feeling Frellin' Fine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I love my SR4A, there is no doubt. I do not like some of the things in SR5, there is no doubt.

It will also be years before we likely change over to SR5, due to timeline location and what is going on in our campaign. Since I do not have the resources (and do not expect to have them any time soon), it is likely that I will remain in the SR4A world (as it is by far my favorite), but since my Long-running GM is a Shadowrunfile, We will likely change over (sans me owning the plethora of books I do now) when the main core books are out and available. I have a copy of the Base Book, at least, and have been perusing it. It is a blend of disappointment and interest at the moment.

Even went through the challenge of transitioning a character from 4th to 5th (the one that was easy enough to do so, at least - My Version of Canray's Accountant from Hell), and he looks promising. Mostly the same skills (his primary Hacking Skill is an amazing 19 Dice, wow, so much for controlling DP Bloat), a few less pieces of 'Ware (Really, Skillwires/Skilljacks are STUPID expensive, and some things do not work like they used to, or no longer exist at the moment). Overall, he is what I was playing before (though now he is actually an adept, rather than a complete mundane - wanted to keep my Edge at 3, so took Adept for my D Choice), and still has most of the same feel. And since I have nothing that benefits (synergistically) from Wireless access (My gun skills will likely NEVER hit my Limit to start with - 6 Dice, Limit 5), I can avoid that whole line of craziness altogether.

There are still things that make me just shake my head, but overall, it looks playable, with some Houseruling (which is sad, since we managed to avoid most houseruling in SR4A). *Shrug* We will see.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Heh... Feeling Frellin' Fine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I love my SR4A, there is no doubt.

Phew! You had my worried for a second. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There are still things that make me just shake my head, but overall, it looks playable, with some Houseruling (which is sad, since we managed to avoid most houseruling in SR4A). *Shrug* We will see.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yeah. I'm a little gunshy myself about flagrant house ruling. It boggles my mind how these Mystic Adepts made it through, though.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Falconer]

Actually I think SR3 had the best implementation of Mystic Adepts... the rules were very concise and well written...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Phew! You had my worried for a second. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah. I'm a little gunshy myself about flagrant house ruling. It boggles my mind how these Mystic Adepts made it through, though.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Indeed... Methinks that Jinx - My Current Mystic Adept, A Black Magic Tradition Mage with a Geas against Killing with Magic (hard to exploit someone if they are dead), would likely benefit GREATLY with the Current Incarnation of the Mystic Adept Rules in SR5. Though again, he still has things that require other books/rules, so no conversions for him anytime soon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Actually I think SR3 had the best implementation of Mystic Adepts... the rules were very concise and well written...

Coming from SR3, I'm a little partial to that implementation myself. I felt there was a clear trade-off between choices.

Indeed... Methinks that Jinx - My Current Mystic Adept, A Black Magic Tradition Mage with a Geas against Killing with Magic (hard to exploit someone if they are dead), would likely benefit GREATLY with the Current Incarnation of the Mystic Adept Rules in SR5. Though again, he still has things that require other books/rules, so no conversions for him anytime soon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

...Seems like any Mystic Adept would benefit GREATLY from the current incarnation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

...Seems like any Mystic Adept would benefit GREATLY from the current incarnation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Too True... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Thanee]

... and a 50/50 is not viable. For hybrids to work, they need about 60-70% of the base functionality of their parent classes.

I roughly agree with this. That is why my approach is not 50/50.

50/50 is the SR4A FAQ Mystic Adept.

Here, they still have the full Magic Rating for both Magician and Adept side. Everything, that is using Magic (all Magic skills, some Adept powers, Adept power limits, etc) is using the full Magic Rating.

They have to choose between spells and spirits (discounting Enchanting as a common choice here, except for niche characters), but whatever they choose will be on par with what a Magician can do. And they will have to choose what Adept powers to get, but those they get will be on par with those of the Adept (and they can still fling spells or summon spirits in addition! Also, they will get a bit more than half the PP, because of the Metamagic extra PP counting full).


The SR5 Mystic Adept is not a hybrid. It's two (almost) full archetypes in one.

Bye
Thanee

[Umidori]

Under the old system, Mystic Adept were only viable in niche builds involving Heightened Concentration or some other crazy optimization. Unless the game reached a ridiculous amount of Karma, they were almost always behind.

Mystic Adepts are, by their nature, hybrids. By choosing to dabble in both magic and adept powers, you become more versatile at the cost of being less powerful in either field.

So, naturally enough, a full mage will be better at the casting spells side of things, and a full adept will be better at the amazing physical feats side of things. Does that make a Mystic Adept less powerful in each respective field? Absolutely. Does that make a Mystic Adept less viable? No, not at all. It's a lot like the relationship with magic and augmentation. Do you want cyberware, or do you want spells/adept powers? Or do you maybe want a little bit of both?

As it stands, 5E Mystic Adepts get all the benefits of being a mage as well as all the benefits of being an adept. If the same was true for augmented magicians, people would be up in arms over it, and rightly so. Making a properly balanced hybrid character requires meaningful tradeoffs. If you don't like those tradeoffs, don't play a hybrid character. But if you're okay with compromising, then you can make a perfectly viable, and often quite interesting, character.

~Umi