So, Mystic Adepts seem a wee bit too awesome as they are now.

What I am thinking about currently is the following house rule:

Mystic Adepts combine the aspects of Aspected Magician (without Astral Perception) and Adept (no Karma cost for initial PP, but gain only 1 PP per 2 full points of Magic, plus full PP from Metamagic).

What do you think?


For Priorities, they should get an extra entry, though:

A - Mystic Adept: Magic 6, one Rating 5 Magical skill group, Astral Perception

B - Mystic Adept: Magic 4, one Rating 4 Magical skill group

C - Mystic Adept: Magic 3, one Rating 3 Magical skill

Bye
Thanee

Interesting. I had been thinking of something similar on the Aspected Front: "Mystics Adepts Chargen as an Aspected Mage of one Priority Level lower. Must choose an Aspect. During Chargen, Mystic Adepts start with no spells or Powerpoints but may buy them as follows: spells cost 5 Karma (normal) and Powerpoints cost 5 Karma."

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

I believe Mystic Adept will be fine when PPs are 5 Karma each.

From what I've read and heard from professional game designers, there's a general consensus that whenever there isn't a meaningful trade-off between choices there is immediately an identifiable optimized choice, and that makes the overall game suffer with respect to how it could have been.

And actually, looking for meaningful choices appears to reinforce the Everything has a Price component that is prevalent in SR5.

It appears like there is not a meaningful choice for Mystic Adepts, however. They look like an obvious choice -- Potentially full Adept powers + Full spell casting + Full Conjuring. Limited solely from Astral Projection.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

IMO its not even close. 30 karma for 6 PPs of adept abilities and they grow with your magic rating or by giving up a metamagic. No other 30 karma expenditure comes close.

Just wait til the magic book comes out and a spirit type with 'astral gateway' joins the fray again. Then it'll be the defacto optimal choice.

At least in the past mystic adepts had to think hard about how they split their magic, debates about how that split worked notwithstanding.

I think I would have preferred if aspected types had to pick two specialties not just one. And mystic adepts were type of aspected mage... pick two out of... sorcery, conjuring, alchemy, or mystic adept. You might see some mages take it and foreswear alchemy... or an alchemist who can dabble in spirits (that just screams halloween style 'witch' to me).

Ahh, you edited your post since my initial response -- Yes, this looks very close to what I was considering.

I like that it forces a real choice between buying spells, and buying Power Points, and allows a player to have the flexibility of both with clear tradeoffs without the obvious, no-brain uber-choice of getting both with minimal cost.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Exactly. I don't even mind them being strong out of the starting gate. It is advancement that is screwed up, because instead of having to choose between magical ability and power points, they get both.

5 Karma per PP for advancement also is what I meant.

If we were talking 5x new rank in PP's it would be one thing... but we're talking 5karma per PP flat... that's the problem.

At 5x new rank essentially they're buying a second cheaper magic attribute. At 5 flat it's almost a no brainer.... 7 magic or 6 magic & 6 PP... sometimes you just have to wonder who writes this drek or thinks it's not an obvious choice.


For those who don't follow my logic... under the old game you had say a magic 4, 2PP split. To advance the character you would need 35 karma for magic 7 then the hard choice. At a 5x new rank... it would only be 25karma for a new Magic-mana, or 15karma for an extra PP. 40karma would get you one of each as opposed to the old one where 35 only got you one or the other. Still a huge buff... but at that cost it's still a hard choice.

At 5 flat it's simply a PP surtax every time you raise magic.

Heh. Yep, exactly after reading your response, actually, since it made me aware, that the regular priorities for Magicians don't work well for Aspected Magicians.



My approach is slightly different, though. Mystic Adepts cannot buy PP, they get them for free, but only half as many as regular Adepts.

I basically want them to be not quite as good as Magicians and not quite as good as Adepts in their own field, but while they are kinda half-Magicians and half-Adepts, they only lack power in quantity not in quality.

Bye
Thanee

Under the old system, Mystic Adept were only viable in niche builds involving Heightened Concentration or some other crazy optimization. Unless the game reached a ridiculous amount of Karma, they were almost always behind.

5x new Rank means they essentially have to buy Magic twice, and a 50/50 is not viable. For hybrids to work, they need about 60-70% of the base functionality of their parent classes. Being able to do both things sounds good on paper, but your action economy is still the same.

Elfenlied: I strongly disagree... I played a few mystic adepts and none ever had any problems. Either with the restrictive force cap or not (depending on GM it was played either way). Using powers like 'ability boost' reaction on top of 'increase initiative' and going for other bargain 0.25PP adept powers was very effective. You only needed a reasonable focus and not try to be a jack of all trades.


As far as your other comment you've completely missed the point. Buying 2 different attributes to 3 each... is only 15 (assuming you're starting with 2 magic and didn't use a special point to raise it). + 5 + 10 + 15 == 45 karma total.

Under SR4 rules starting with 3 magic and no power point you'd be looking at 20 + 25 + 30 karma... or 75 karma plus the need to initiate sooner. It's the exact same problem as the adept attribute raising powers... raise my raw magic score repeatedly... or just raise the attribute right away... even at 0.75 per rank it was normally cheaper to raise the attribute and pay the karma for magic for things you couldn't get otherwise... simply because you'd have to keep stacking more attribute points on top of an already high attribute.

Also quite contrary to your point... 50/50 is extremely viable since each rank of the 50/50 is far cheaper than the whole shebang. Your comment is no different than All4Bigguns stating that it's impossible to build a balanced character with less than 1000 karma. It reflects skewed expectations of what is 'balanced' or in-line with other classes.

If going for rules lawyer/powergamer I will go for mystic adept in SR5 lickity split!

I disagree with that assessment. They may be a bit behind, but that DOES NOT make them non-viable. My Current Mystic Adept does not have either Adept Centering nor Heightened Concentration, and is split 3 Sorcery, 2 Adept. He works VERY well for what he does.

I think you will find that a common sentiment.

But you agree that Shadowrun 4th Edition has the least desirable implementation of Mystic Adepts, right?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Actually, I prefer SR4A's Implementation over previous Editions (SR1/2/3), and have played several over the years (My Current Mys-Ad character is just over 300 Karma at this point). It remains to be seen if I will prefer 5th Edition's take on them. They do seem to have very few drawbacks, in comparison to 4th Edition. Will have to see.

Whoa, wait a second, hold up. I wasn't expecting that. That didn't sound like the a full bored endorsement of SR 4!

Hold up, hold up. Are you feeling alright, Tymeaus?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Heh... Feeling Frellin' Fine. I love my SR4A, there is no doubt. I do not like some of the things in SR5, there is no doubt.

It will also be years before we likely change over to SR5, due to timeline location and what is going on in our campaign. Since I do not have the resources (and do not expect to have them any time soon), it is likely that I will remain in the SR4A world (as it is by far my favorite), but since my Long-running GM is a Shadowrunfile, We will likely change over (sans me owning the plethora of books I do now) when the main core books are out and available. I have a copy of the Base Book, at least, and have been perusing it. It is a blend of disappointment and interest at the moment.

Even went through the challenge of transitioning a character from 4th to 5th (the one that was easy enough to do so, at least - My Version of Canray's Accountant from Hell), and he looks promising. Mostly the same skills (his primary Hacking Skill is an amazing 19 Dice, wow, so much for controlling DP Bloat), a few less pieces of 'Ware (Really, Skillwires/Skilljacks are STUPID expensive, and some things do not work like they used to, or no longer exist at the moment). Overall, he is what I was playing before (though now he is actually an adept, rather than a complete mundane - wanted to keep my Edge at 3, so took Adept for my D Choice), and still has most of the same feel. And since I have nothing that benefits (synergistically) from Wireless access (My gun skills will likely NEVER hit my Limit to start with - 6 Dice, Limit 5), I can avoid that whole line of craziness altogether.

There are still things that make me just shake my head, but overall, it looks playable, with some Houseruling (which is sad, since we managed to avoid most houseruling in SR4A). *Shrug* We will see....

Phew! You had my worried for a second.



Yeah. I'm a little gunshy myself about flagrant house ruling. It boggles my mind how these Mystic Adepts made it through, though.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Actually I think SR3 had the best implementation of Mystic Adepts... the rules were very concise and well written...

Indeed... Methinks that Jinx - My Current Mystic Adept, A Black Magic Tradition Mage with a Geas against Killing with Magic (hard to exploit someone if they are dead), would likely benefit GREATLY with the Current Incarnation of the Mystic Adept Rules in SR5. Though again, he still has things that require other books/rules, so no conversions for him anytime soon.

Coming from SR3, I'm a little partial to that implementation myself. I felt there was a clear trade-off between choices.


...Seems like any Mystic Adept would benefit GREATLY from the current incarnation.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Too True...

I roughly agree with this. That is why my approach is not 50/50.

50/50 is the SR4A FAQ Mystic Adept.

Here, they still have the full Magic Rating for both Magician and Adept side. Everything, that is using Magic (all Magic skills, some Adept powers, Adept power limits, etc) is using the full Magic Rating.

They have to choose between spells and spirits (discounting Enchanting as a common choice here, except for niche characters), but whatever they choose will be on par with what a Magician can do. And they will have to choose what Adept powers to get, but those they get will be on par with those of the Adept (and they can still fling spells or summon spirits in addition! Also, they will get a bit more than half the PP, because of the Metamagic extra PP counting full).


The SR5 Mystic Adept is not a hybrid. It's two (almost) full archetypes in one.

Bye
Thanee

Mystic Adepts are, by their nature, hybrids. By choosing to dabble in both magic and adept powers, you become more versatile at the cost of being less powerful in either field.

So, naturally enough, a full mage will be better at the casting spells side of things, and a full adept will be better at the amazing physical feats side of things. Does that make a Mystic Adept less powerful in each respective field? Absolutely. Does that make a Mystic Adept less viable? No, not at all. It's a lot like the relationship with magic and augmentation. Do you want cyberware, or do you want spells/adept powers? Or do you maybe want a little bit of both?

As it stands, 5E Mystic Adepts get all the benefits of being a mage as well as all the benefits of being an adept. If the same was true for augmented magicians, people would be up in arms over it, and rightly so. Making a properly balanced hybrid character requires meaningful tradeoffs. If you don't like those tradeoffs, don't play a hybrid character. But if you're okay with compromising, then you can make a perfectly viable, and often quite interesting, character.

~Umi

Excellent summary.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

My approach to this subject, as posted on the other forums:

i havent read mystic adepts yetbut ifthey are too good we just wont use them at all in our game. noone ever played one before so no real loss.

Well, compared to a Magician (assuming Magic 6), they get no Astral Projection, and lose 12 Karma, but get 6 Power Points worth of Adept powers (one of which will likely be used to gain Astral Perception) instead. And later on, they get a free PP whenever they raise Magic in addition to everything else it does.

Bye
Thanee

uh-huh yep that sounds stupid good. first house rule then will be no mystic adepts at our table, i suspect.

Of course, it's been acknowledges that the 2 Karma bit is in error.

Even with 5 Karma apiece it is way too cheap, though.

Bye
Thanee

As I read it, buying power points with karma is only available at character creation. If you raise the cost, that's simply going to encourage the player to start with magic at a lower priority (can be as low as C: Magic 3). Use karma to raise magic after creation, and get the magic points for free.

The dilemma of the mystic adept is that they start too weak (unless they ignore one side of their potential), and (given a long enough campaign) end up too powerful. It's a generalist archetype in a setting that favours specialists.

Yes Rhat, and your 1.5 x rank is just as much of a joke and just as bad as the current as a flat 2 or rumored 5 karma a piece.

Seriously undercosted.

Magician-side and Adept-side can synergize rather well...

Bye
Thanee

... At Magic 6, it's 9 per power point. What would you consider an appropriate cost?

If you bothered to read Rhat. You would have seen my suggested cost earlier in the thread... in karmagen terms...

105 karma at 5x rank for both magic & PP (also remember PP are more valuable in SR5 than SR4 with adept power cost reductions making each point buy more). EG: pay full cost for power points, but don't buy them on top of the existing magic attribute (essentially mystic adepts end up with 2 seperate magic attributes... bought seperately).

5 + 10 + 15 + 20 == Magic 4 for 50 karma. 4 Power points for 50 karma. 100 karma total... so 5 karma leftover for other things.
Or for the pure mage... 105 karma is enough to buy 5 + 10 + 15 + 20 + 25 + 30 == Magic 6.

Scaling costs keep things in line, the mystic adept gets more than the old style magic 6... split 3/3. Instead a substantial 33% boost to 8 raw points of magic split 4/4 for an even split (the most cost effective if talking in raw total magic). That's pretty far from gimping them at full attribute cost.


Not a joke of no brainer under costing that 1.5x per rank, flat 2 per point, or flat 5 per point is. At those costs why would I ever play a pure adept?! Why not play a mystic adept and simply buy cheap power points and ignore spellcasting/summoning/alchemy! No one seems to have thought of that unintended consequence.

... Karmagen terms are not relevant to SR5 discussions at this time, Falconer. Whatever the solution is, it has to in some way fit into SR5 Priority.

And if you look at the numbers, MystAds actually progress a good deal slower than PhysAds if you base Power Point costs on Magic. It's actually worth noting that 1.5xMagic is actually too high to fit into SR5 Priority, because 6 points clock in at 54 Karma as compared to a maximum of 50 chargen Karma (if you take full negative qualities).

Which is irrelevant to viewing things on the only scale which matters on a long term cost/benefit chart. When viewing characters... tallying the raw karma costs (as if built using karmagen) is generally the best way to compare build efficiency. Generally a build which optomizes 'karma value' in chargen will in the long haul end up stronger than a build which doesn't... since it will always have an 'edge' when buying up things and be able to more effectively spend karma later.


And also... NO ONE has any business coming out of chargen with effectively 12 points of magic! So your assertion is critically flawed. I reject the premise that anyone should be coming out of chargen with 6 points worth of adept powers and 2 points of magic even (let alone 6 or 7).

1.5x is still a complete and utter joke of undercosting... especially if as hinted at by your silly chart. You can buy PP in excess of your magic score. There is no reason to ever take adept then. A full adept pays full costs... while your mystic adept gets 'discount' points again.

I'm sorry, did you just try to claim chargen is irrelevant?

Also, the pure Adept pays less for power points. The adept just has to pay the initiation cost and select that metamagic, while the mystic adept has to do that AND pay an additional cost for the power point itself. Then, down the line, if you want to go to Magic 7 as a MystAd with 12 power points, it's gonna be expensive - 69 Karma instead of 35, or 80 Karma if you also want to get a Power Point with the new point of Magic.

No, you're the one putting words into my mouth yet again.

Chargen should provide roughly balanced characters in terms of cost. Currently the only real yardstick of character 'worth' we have is total karma value. And sorry but someone with 6 magic & 6 PP is not balanced in any way shape or form. It should not be a possibility out of chargen, even if the idiotic bit about 2karma per point in chargen is in there right now. That's the problem in the first place.... tailoring scaling costs to reflect the idiocy possible with the current undercosting does not fix the problem.

Your own chart gives lie to what you just claimed about costss... there should be no entry for magic 1, 6 PP if your current claim is true. That shows gaining power points without raising magic is part of your calculations.

Which is yet another problem with the current rewrite of mystic adepts... you can't make a mystic dabbler... you MUST be a full magician before you can raise PP's... which is completely backwards. In SR3 this was made clear... you lost PP's spent on magic first in all cases... if you lost all your PP spent on Magic from permanent magic loss you were a straight adept and could never be a Mystic Adept again.

You can't make an adept with 6 PP and 2 magic with the current boondoggle... an adept who dabbles in alchemy on the side for example. It's a glaring flaw in the system.

One of the few things they got right in this edition is making it clear that adepts and only pure adepts can gain a freebie PP when they initiate... but that doesn't compare to simply buying cheap PP unless the Magic limitation is in place... which enforces that a mystic adept must be a mage first... and an adept second since the former limits the latter. The two should be uncoupled.

Hey, you're the one who called the long term "the only scale that matters".

That chart was generated with an EXTREMELY simple algorithm. Magic 1, 6 PP exists on there because I was too damn lazy to bother writing anything to cap power points at twice Magic - after all, it's only purpose is to run numbers. However, the suggesting itself also assumes that the "initiate for power point" option would exist for Mystic Adepts, with the commensurate Karma cost applied to the power point - so that you can, if you want, continue to focus on the Adept side.

Now, I'd certainly like to see Mystic Adepts have the option to be an Adept first and a Mage second, but the whole point of the suggestion is to work within the existing system. If I were going to rewrite them from the ground up, I'd come up with a different system - possibly similar to this one and using an entirely different set of constraints.

I should also point out that any Awakened who has Magic 6 will almost certainly be leaving chargen with more than that - Mentor Spirits grant Adepts free powers, Qi Foci are good for more power points (Rating 4 is easily in reach, and there doesn't seem to be any reason why you can't have more than one), and you can get a Power Focus up to Force 3 at chargen. And a MystAd that spends all his chargen karma on Power Points gets none of those - making him both a less effective Mage and less effective Adept than could be built, while still being an attractive option.

I'm also very skeptical of the idea of using Karma as a balance yardstick because I simply do not want to assume that the Karma costs are all balanced.

Mystic Adepts can select the Metamagic, too.

Even if they never select any other Metamagic, they get full Magic Rating and spells / spirits / enchantments on top of what the Adept gets (for pretty much the same cost; only in chargen they are marginally more expensive).

Bye
Thanee

To be clear, I was referencing part of what would be different in the structure I was proposing. Basically, any time an adept would gain a power point a mystic adept would have the option of doing so, but must pay the additional karma cost to actually get the power point.

Ah, I see, sorry. Thought you were talking about the regular rules.

Bye
Thanee

I can see where it might get mixed around.

I think 4 Karma would be better. Six magic, that is 24 Karma leaving 26 Karma for other purchases.
And I agree that a higher PP cost will balance them out especially since they usually spread themselves out too much any way.

You mean leaving 1 for other purchases, maybe. Not everyone takes 25 negative qualities and no positive ones.

I do feel like Mystic Adepts will be able to take the mantle of best combat mage, and I'm actually fine with that. (Well, best until the magician can cast and maintain increased reflexes 10 for that 5d6)

Why would the Mystic Adept not use the Increase Reflexes spell? Getting that from the Adept side would be a rather weak choice, if you can get it so much easier.

Bye
Thanee

Well, mostly because you have to cast and sustain said spell. You need 2 hits to gain +1 REA and +1d6. This means that improved reflexes 3 (adept) is equal to having a constantly sustained Increase Reflexes 6 with all 6 hits and no focus to worry about. (or drain)