Used 'ware, It's a surprisingly strong option Options

[kerbarian]

In SR5, the "used" grade of cyberware and bioware is apparently the new version of Restricted Gear. Kinda. It eats up essence, but with the -4 availability mod it allows access to a number of things that are otherwise unavailable during character creation.

The rules also say that "All accessories and add-ons must be of the same grade as the implant to which they are added." (p. 451). So, for example, if your cybereyes are alphaware, you have to pay alpha prices for your Smartlink even though it doesn't save you any essence. I'm fine with that -- if you buy tricked-out alpha cybereyes, it makes sense that you have to pay a premium on the whole package and not just the base eyes.

However, that gives yet another advantage to used cyberware -- I'm looking at cyberlimbs in particular. Your used cyberarm comes with used armor, meaning the armor's availability is lowered and you can get the maximum 3 points of armor during character creation.

One note is that I don't see anything forbidding used, cultured bioware. It doesn't make sense given the description of cultured bioware (unless it was salvaged from your twin brother?), and I would expect GMs to disallow it, but I can't find anything in the rules making it explicit.

[Umidori]

Interesting find. I wonder if this was intended. (Although the Cultured Bioware thing surely was not.)

~Umi

[Thanee]

Isn't that part good enough?

"Cultured bioware must be tailor-made for the body in which it will eventually find a home."

That effectively forbids used cultured bioware in my eyes. Don't think there needs to be a specific mentioning under the used grade as well.

Bye
Thanee

[Rubic]

I always thought the Used Cyberware rules were horribly under-written. RAW, you were technically able to get Used Deltaware, even though Deltaware, by fluff, was custom-engineered for use with YOUR SPECIFIC body, which is, at best, unlikely for something cut off of another person's corpse. I was under the impression that both Alpha and Beta grades were also, to some degree, tailored to the individual.

There should have been, and still should be, a notation for Used to always count as Used Standard Grade. After all, if it wasn't tailored for YOU, then why should you get the bonuses?

Srsly

[DeathStrobe]

I always thought the Used Cyberware rules were horribly under-written. RAW, you were technically able to get Used Deltaware, even though Deltaware, by fluff, was custom-engineered for use with YOUR SPECIFIC body, which is, at best, unlikely for something cut off of another person's corpse. I was under the impression that both Alpha and Beta grades were also, to some degree, tailored to the individual.

There should have been, and still should be, a notation for Used to always count as Used Standard Grade. After all, if it wasn't tailored for YOU, then why should you get the bonuses?

Srsly

You don't? If its not made for you, it means its used. Which means it costs 1.25 the essence cost of standard ware, even if it was deltaware for someone else, it is not delta ware for you. For you, its just used ware, regardless of the previous owner. Though, that'd be a sweet ass character hook if that used ware used to belong to a famous runner and had part of a map hidden in its device. You have to get a hacker to get it out, but it has some really dangerous IC protecting the map. And the Yaks or Vory, or whatever, will do anything to get a hold of it. Well, guess I just came up with a great campaign idea.

[Umidori]

So essentially Cutthroat Island?

~Umi

[Rubic]

You don't? If its not made for you, it means its used. Which means it costs 1.25 the essence cost of standard ware, even if it was deltaware for someone else, it is not delta ware for you. For you, its just used ware, regardless of the previous owner. Though, that'd be a sweet ass character hook if that used ware used to belong to a famous runner and had part of a map hidden in its device. You have to get a hacker to get it out, but it has some really dangerous IC protecting the map. And the Yaks or Vory, or whatever, will do anything to get a hold of it. Well, guess I just came up with a great campaign idea.

Just mathed it out...

According to SR4 Augmentation (P.32, bottom right hand side of the page, under the picture), you can get Std or Alphaware as Second Hand, at essence loss equal to [std cost x used differential of 1.2 x grade differential (for Alpha, 0.8 as per SR4 core book)], at a nuyen cost of [std cost x 0.5 for Used x 2 for Alphaware]. For a 1 essence piece of gear, that's 0.96 essence cost at standard market costs and availability threshhold -1 for an Alphaware implant, with no solidly provided availability threshhold other than the -1 for Used, other than fluff (p. 165 Augmentation, top).

RAW, you can technically get any grade of cyberware immediately, and used Std. or Alpha can be purchased retroactively. Installation, then, is where the delay comes in.

Edit: just want to be clear, this is for SR4 rules on Used Ware, not SR5. I hope SR5 was more clear about availability of grades and rules for Used ware, if they have any such rules for it.

[Umidori]

I hope SR5 was more clear about availability of grades and rules for Used ware, if they have any such rules for it.

That's actually the point. SR5 was not clear on this matter, and in fact seems to suggest that there are no "Used Alpha" or "Used Beta" grades, but just a "Used" grade that includes any 'ware which was previously used, whether it was originally Standard, Alpha, Beta, or Delta grade.

~Umi

[Rubic]

That's actually the point. SR5 was not clear on this matter, and in fact seems to suggest that there are no "Used Alpha" or "Used Beta" grades, but just a "Used" grade that includes any 'ware which was previously used, whether it was originally Standard, Alpha, Beta, or Delta grade.

~Umi

See, I consider that more clear, and can stand by it. There should be NO essence discount for used ware, regardless. At best, Used ware could be remanufactured into Std (or better) ware, or recycled for parts for the same, by a biotechnician/engineer with the appropriate tools/facilities, and THEN installed on the recipient. If you're not parts-ing/rebuilding the used ware, then it's going to be a defacto degraded interface, like getting a used piston for a vehicle engine. You can't expect the same performance/life expectancy as out-of-the-box from a 20% used up piece of gear unless you put in that extra bit of love.

[Thanee]

That's actually the point. SR5 was not clear on this matter, and in fact seems to suggest that there are no "Used Alpha" or "Used Beta" grades, but just a "Used" grade that includes any 'ware which was previously used, whether it was originally Standard, Alpha, Beta, or Delta grade.

That's how it should work. It will save a lot of headaches.

Bye
Thanee

[Shortstraw]

Gets you a rtg 3 control rig at chargen.

[Stahlseele]

Aside from killing you outright probably?
Or were the essence-ratings changed?

[Thanee]

It is 1/2/3 Essence now. It also works different to the old SR1-3 one (improves piloting, not initiative, which is quite high from VR, automatically).

And as opposed to SR4, it is now necessary for rigging.

Bye
Thanee

[Stahlseele]

Ah.

[CanRay]

*Holds out a set of Cyberoptics in a sandwich baggie* "See, is good set of cybereyes, only used on Sunday by little old lady. I even cleaned them up for installation, used Windex and everything!"

[Seerow]

It is 1/2/3 Essence now. It also works different to the old SR1-3 one (improves piloting, not initiative, which is quite high from VR, automatically).

And as opposed to SR4, it is now necessary for rigging.

Bye
Thanee

Is 2 essence really worth +2 dice on pilot tests though?

The first point is definitely worth it, as that makes you a rigger. The upgrades give less benefit, and shouldn't cost as much. Unless there's some extra benefit at CR2/3 that you didn't mention.

[Sendaz]

Just do NOT get the cut rate 'Otaku' (refering to old school anime/manga fans - not the technoshammies of old) Cyber Ear & Eye Set out of the Czech Republic.

Sure they were tons cheaper and come with an translation program built in that can hear and translate up to 25 languages/subdialects (Mostly the variations of Chinese, Japanese Bollywood, Spanish, English and Italian) which it subtitles into English across your cybervision.

Sounds good so far? Well there is a catch. You can NOT disable the translation program, it's set to always on and you can not even just have a street doc burn a few chips out to disable it, it's intermeshed into the main functioning system and messing with these will burn out the whole unit.

Again you may be thinking, 'What's so bad about that?' Well, one it ONLY translates into English and very bad English at that. Remember how we mentioned English is one of the languages it translates? That's right.. it translates your regular English into this cobbled from hell English, which can be rather humorous or distracting as the case may be. Plus the system has timing issues so that you see the text a good second or two after the words, not parts of a second... SECONDS.. so yeah, its bad kung fu flicks all over again.

So a lot of guys got this and then had them ripped back out again a few weeks later, so there are more than a few floating out there in the system to beware.

[Wakshaani]

Personal take? Any cyberware pulled out of someone drops a grade, right then and there. Used Alpha is, effectively, standard cyber. Used Beta is effectively Alpha, and so on. Thus, there's no need for a "Used Alpha" state, you just call it normal and run with it.

Used is darn handy when you want to cyber your ganers, too. Uncle Al's Gizmos, Gears, and Grinders makes hoagies in the front and does bodywork in the back. You can't expect cutting edge stuff there, but chummer, the blades you can buy are so *cheap*! Just don't ask to have your arm back if he welds a new one on. And you should probably skip the sandwhiches for a few days, just to be safe.

[Flaser]

Is 2 essence really worth +2 dice on pilot tests though?

The first point is definitely worth it, as that makes you a rigger. The upgrades give less benefit, and shouldn't cost as much. Unless there's some extra benefit at CR2/3 that you didn't mention.

It is, as it has other *very* potent effects:

"When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig provides its Rating as a dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests. Additionally, the rating of your control rig is added to the Handling and Speed of any vehicle you are
jumped into. As if that was not enough, your Vehicle Test thresholds are reduced by the rating of your control rig (to a minimum of 1), again when you’re jumped in."

...obviously the most extreme of these is the lowered threshold, turning impossible tasks into hard ones and so on.

[Jaid]

Is 2 essence really worth +2 dice on pilot tests though?

The first point is definitely worth it, as that makes you a rigger. The upgrades give less benefit, and shouldn't cost as much. Unless there's some extra benefit at CR2/3 that you didn't mention.

VCR lowers vehicle tests *thresholds* by 1 per rating (ie it is worth +3 dice on a test, on average, per rating, from that alone).

also, it boosts your limits (technically the vehicle's handling and speed attributes, but those are your limits, so... yeah).

but mostly, the big deal is the part where it lowers your thresholds. interestingly enough, gunnery is a vehicle skill... does this mean that with a VCR 3 you get to ignore 3 hits on your opponent's dodge? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

so yes, getting a rating 3 control rig at chargen is a big deal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jaid]

just found another one.

used 'ware can get you a better cyberdeck in chargen due to how the cost is listed. an extra program, an extra device rating, and +1 to each matrix stat. not bad at all =S

[hermit]

used 'ware can get you a better cyberdeck in chargen due to how the cost is listed. an extra program, an extra device rating, and +1 to each matrix stat. not bad at all =S

How come?

[Stahlseele]

Isn't there a Cyber-Ware-Version of a Deck?

[hermit]

Ah ... okay ... if you read it as 5.000+cyberdeck cost as the price for the cyberware as such ...

[Stahlseele]

Seeing how the used mod halves prices and lowers availability, yes, a used cranial cyberdeck might really be a viable alternative O.o