In SR5, the "used" grade of cyberware and bioware is apparently the new version of Restricted Gear. Kinda. It eats up essence, but with the -4 availability mod it allows access to a number of things that are otherwise unavailable during character creation.

The rules also say that "All accessories and add-ons must be of the same grade as the implant to which they are added." (p. 451). So, for example, if your cybereyes are alphaware, you have to pay alpha prices for your Smartlink even though it doesn't save you any essence. I'm fine with that -- if you buy tricked-out alpha cybereyes, it makes sense that you have to pay a premium on the whole package and not just the base eyes.

However, that gives yet another advantage to used cyberware -- I'm looking at cyberlimbs in particular. Your used cyberarm comes with used armor, meaning the armor's availability is lowered and you can get the maximum 3 points of armor during character creation.

One note is that I don't see anything forbidding used, cultured bioware. It doesn't make sense given the description of cultured bioware (unless it was salvaged from your twin brother?), and I would expect GMs to disallow it, but I can't find anything in the rules making it explicit.

Interesting find. I wonder if this was intended. (Although the Cultured Bioware thing surely was not.)

~Umi

Isn't that part good enough?

"Cultured bioware must be tailor-made for the body in which it will eventually find a home."

That effectively forbids used cultured bioware in my eyes. Don't think there needs to be a specific mentioning under the used grade as well.

Bye
Thanee

I always thought the Used Cyberware rules were horribly under-written. RAW, you were technically able to get Used Deltaware, even though Deltaware, by fluff, was custom-engineered for use with YOUR SPECIFIC body, which is, at best, unlikely for something cut off of another person's corpse. I was under the impression that both Alpha and Beta grades were also, to some degree, tailored to the individual.

There should have been, and still should be, a notation for Used to always count as Used Standard Grade. After all, if it wasn't tailored for YOU, then why should you get the bonuses?

Srsly

You don't? If its not made for you, it means its used. Which means it costs 1.25 the essence cost of standard ware, even if it was deltaware for someone else, it is not delta ware for you. For you, its just used ware, regardless of the previous owner. Though, that'd be a sweet ass character hook if that used ware used to belong to a famous runner and had part of a map hidden in its device. You have to get a hacker to get it out, but it has some really dangerous IC protecting the map. And the Yaks or Vory, or whatever, will do anything to get a hold of it. Well, guess I just came up with a great campaign idea.

So essentially Cutthroat Island?

~Umi

Just mathed it out...

According to SR4 Augmentation (P.32, bottom right hand side of the page, under the picture), you can get Std or Alphaware as Second Hand, at essence loss equal to [std cost x used differential of 1.2 x grade differential (for Alpha, 0.8 as per SR4 core book)], at a nuyen cost of [std cost x 0.5 for Used x 2 for Alphaware]. For a 1 essence piece of gear, that's 0.96 essence cost at standard market costs and availability threshhold -1 for an Alphaware implant, with no solidly provided availability threshhold other than the -1 for Used, other than fluff (p. 165 Augmentation, top).

RAW, you can technically get any grade of cyberware immediately, and used Std. or Alpha can be purchased retroactively. Installation, then, is where the delay comes in.

Edit: just want to be clear, this is for SR4 rules on Used Ware, not SR5. I hope SR5 was more clear about availability of grades and rules for Used ware, if they have any such rules for it.

That's actually the point. SR5 was not clear on this matter, and in fact seems to suggest that there are no "Used Alpha" or "Used Beta" grades, but just a "Used" grade that includes any 'ware which was previously used, whether it was originally Standard, Alpha, Beta, or Delta grade.

~Umi

See, I consider that more clear, and can stand by it. There should be NO essence discount for used ware, regardless. At best, Used ware could be remanufactured into Std (or better) ware, or recycled for parts for the same, by a biotechnician/engineer with the appropriate tools/facilities, and THEN installed on the recipient. If you're not parts-ing/rebuilding the used ware, then it's going to be a defacto degraded interface, like getting a used piston for a vehicle engine. You can't expect the same performance/life expectancy as out-of-the-box from a 20% used up piece of gear unless you put in that extra bit of love.

That's how it should work. It will save a lot of headaches.

Bye
Thanee

Gets you a rtg 3 control rig at chargen.

Aside from killing you outright probably?
Or were the essence-ratings changed?

It is 1/2/3 Essence now. It also works different to the old SR1-3 one (improves piloting, not initiative, which is quite high from VR, automatically).

And as opposed to SR4, it is now necessary for rigging.

Bye
Thanee

Ah.

*Holds out a set of Cyberoptics in a sandwich baggie* "See, is good set of cybereyes, only used on Sunday by little old lady. I even cleaned them up for installation, used Windex and everything!"

Is 2 essence really worth +2 dice on pilot tests though?

The first point is definitely worth it, as that makes you a rigger. The upgrades give less benefit, and shouldn't cost as much. Unless there's some extra benefit at CR2/3 that you didn't mention.

Just do NOT get the cut rate 'Otaku' (refering to old school anime/manga fans - not the technoshammies of old) Cyber Ear & Eye Set out of the Czech Republic.

Sure they were tons cheaper and come with an translation program built in that can hear and translate up to 25 languages/subdialects (Mostly the variations of Chinese, Japanese Bollywood, Spanish, English and Italian) which it subtitles into English across your cybervision.

Sounds good so far? Well there is a catch. You can NOT disable the translation program, it's set to always on and you can not even just have a street doc burn a few chips out to disable it, it's intermeshed into the main functioning system and messing with these will burn out the whole unit.

Again you may be thinking, 'What's so bad about that?' Well, one it ONLY translates into English and very bad English at that. Remember how we mentioned English is one of the languages it translates? That's right.. it translates your regular English into this cobbled from hell English, which can be rather humorous or distracting as the case may be. Plus the system has timing issues so that you see the text a good second or two after the words, not parts of a second... SECONDS.. so yeah, its bad kung fu flicks all over again.

So a lot of guys got this and then had them ripped back out again a few weeks later, so there are more than a few floating out there in the system to beware.

Personal take? Any cyberware pulled out of someone drops a grade, right then and there. Used Alpha is, effectively, standard cyber. Used Beta is effectively Alpha, and so on. Thus, there's no need for a "Used Alpha" state, you just call it normal and run with it.

Used is darn handy when you want to cyber your ganers, too. Uncle Al's Gizmos, Gears, and Grinders makes hoagies in the front and does bodywork in the back. You can't expect cutting edge stuff there, but chummer, the blades you can buy are so *cheap*! Just don't ask to have your arm back if he welds a new one on. And you should probably skip the sandwhiches for a few days, just to be safe.

It is, as it has other *very* potent effects:

"When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig provides its Rating as a dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests. Additionally, the rating of your control rig is added to the Handling and Speed of any vehicle you are
jumped into. As if that was not enough, your Vehicle Test thresholds are reduced by the rating of your control rig (to a minimum of 1), again when you’re jumped in."

...obviously the most extreme of these is the lowered threshold, turning impossible tasks into hard ones and so on.

VCR lowers vehicle tests *thresholds* by 1 per rating (ie it is worth +3 dice on a test, on average, per rating, from that alone).

also, it boosts your limits (technically the vehicle's handling and speed attributes, but those are your limits, so... yeah).

but mostly, the big deal is the part where it lowers your thresholds. interestingly enough, gunnery is a vehicle skill... does this mean that with a VCR 3 you get to ignore 3 hits on your opponent's dodge?

so yes, getting a rating 3 control rig at chargen is a big deal

just found another one.

used 'ware can get you a better cyberdeck in chargen due to how the cost is listed. an extra program, an extra device rating, and +1 to each matrix stat. not bad at all =S

How come?

Isn't there a Cyber-Ware-Version of a Deck?

Ah ... okay ... if you read it as 5.000+cyberdeck cost as the price for the cyberware as such ...

Seeing how the used mod halves prices and lowers availability, yes, a used cranial cyberdeck might really be a viable alternative O.o

Getting the odd grey and red bits cleaned out of it however is extra.

Not at Bob's Quickstitch! Bob's Quickstitch provides a 2-year guarantee against infection from residual tissue in our pre-owned line of augmentations, and a five-year plan for treatment of any issue caused by residual tissue or dormant germs at a 25% discount!

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Yes, but you still have to purchase the deck separately. Which means the deck itself is going to keep its normal Availability.

Also, I'd like to point out that on top of the "Used is its own grade", the rules specifically say you can ONLY get standard and alpha grade cyberware at character generation (p. 451 "Only standard, alphaware, and used implants are available for purchase at character creation." and p. 95 "Only standard gear and alphaware are available at character generation."...so I'm posting that in the errata thread.)

Special Rule trumps general rule right?
So is only standard/alpha in char gen the general or is used ware availability the general?

that would be a very reasonable houserule. but that's not what it says. the cost for an implanted cyberdeck is not 5000 plus a cyberdeck to implant. it's 5,000 + cyberdeck cost.

used doesn't modify part of the price. it modifies all of the price. if you can find a used implanted fairlight excalibur, you can get it for 25% off (incidentally, used is not 50% cost, it's 75%, so not *quite* as good as some thought).

It's extrapolation from the Commlink listing. It doesn't have an availability rating, but a Commlink itself does. So what's the Availability of an implanted Commlink? The implication is that the equipment itself is purchased separately at its own availability rating and that the additional costs are for getting a model specifically designed for implantation. Same goes for cybereyes - you don't add the availability of all the various enhancements together, you consider their availability separately. The only other possible interpretation would be that you use the availability for the implant alone - which also doesn't track with ANY other rules for gear.

The only possible interpretation of the rules without breaking some other part is that the commlink or cyberdeck being implanted must be purchased separately at its own availability. At the very least, this is obviously RAI and it takes a very argumentative reading of the rules to argue that it's RAW.

SecondRun - A campaign of all used ware, decks and other scraps salvaged by the players.

Played to the tune of the new hit single, Thriftrun.

And I would argue that the STANDARD Cyberdeck will not fit in your cranium (Thus is it not "just buy the standard deck and add 5,000 Nuyen"). You need a CRANIAL CYberdeck to fit in there (Which by definition MUST be heavily reduced in size and weight).

no, that's just what they probably meant to say. very probably, even. i'd go so far as to suggest that they probably didn't even think about the implications of listing the cost as being 5000 plus the cost of a cyberdeck in combination with used cyberware at all.

i'll readily agree that they very likely didn't mean to have it say what it says. but it definitely does say what it says.

No, pretty sure a standard one would fit in there too considering there's wearable ones in the game. Just probably need special casing and interface (thus the extra 2000¥). Cranial computing technology goes all the way back to 2050 in Shadowtech. Pretty sure they've got that one down by now.

That was almost Yogi Berra worthy.

However, it still doesn't address that even RAW doesn't support your reading of the rules any better than it supports mine, and my reading is supported by the rules for every other component-based cyberware in the game.

so put it into a used cyber-arm. or leg. or hand. or foot. or lower limb.

BTW, confirmed from Jason Hardy, used cyberware is NOT available at character creation.

Which, honestly, makes no damned sense whatsoever. IF ANYTHING should be available on the streets, it is USED cyberware. How else is a Ganger supposed to 'ware up?

Paying full price and explaining it however you like in the backstory *shrug*

Oh god the hit just keep on coming for the poor street sam, i really can't understand this irrational hate the devs seems to have towards street sams.

Which is absolute Crap... And everyone knows it... *shrug*
What ganger will have several HUNDRED thousand Nuyen worth of Optimal Cyber?

Not official unless it appears in the errata. Also of note in the pages you mention...

"There are four grades of available cyberware and bioware:
standard, alphaware, betaware, and deltaware (p.
451). Only standard gear and alphaware are available at
character creation."

This passage on page 95 doesn't even include Used ware as a category. Only Pg 451 does, which also states it can be taken at char gen. Really though, used ware at char gen is essential for making street level runners who sell more of their soul to try and make it to the big leagues.

Guess Crime DOES pay

Still I supposed they didn't want players doing an end run around the resources/pricing in place for normal, but I agree used and second hand would/should probably be a starter to many.

But is it really that unbalanceing to have access as you do pay more ess for the used piece, so it sort of balances out with the reduced cost.

Although since it said used was available at chargen, I wonder if Hardy even realizes that bit of typo if he is saying the opposite.

used is not a grade, it's a modifier to grade right?
so used alpha totally works.

You would think so. However...

Page 451 - Cyberware and bioware implants are available in five distinct
grades: standard, alphaware, betaware, deltaware,
and used. Only standard, alphaware, and used implants
are available for purchase at character creation

No its a seperate grade now.

So . . ok, the book is disagreeing with itself again then . .
On one page it's not defined as a grade, but on the other it is . .

That's exactly the discrepancy I was talking about. "Official errata" or not, the book is straight-up conflicting between those two sentences. And I'm going to take the word of the Line Developer as the canon answer until an official errata happens.