Impressions on 4&5 Options

[Socinus]

Alright, so this is a culmination of a thought process I've had banging around since I heard about SR5. Full disclosure: my roommate purchased the PDF and I've had a chance to read through it a few times on his tablet, I have not studied it in depth.

When I heard there was a new edition coming out, I was...a little put off. I've only ever played SR4 but as far as I can see, it's a very good system. The overall framework of the system itself is very solid and plays very well, despite a bit of a learning curve. Given the givens, I feel it represents the potential randomness of the real world fairly well, it allows for and encourages player creativity both in gameplay and building a character, and it allows for a sense of challenge as well as giving the player a sense of personal ability and power. It is, in short, fun.

There are terabytes worth of pages on this forum alone highlighting the holes (and there are many) in the SR4 system, I have no need to flog that particular fossilized horse anymore. But that said, the overwhelming majority of the problems I've found personally and seen during play were things that could ultimately be fixed without replacing the entire system. I feel like we needed some basic fixes rather than graduating to a whole new system.

That said, after reading through the corebook for SR5, I'm not actually seeing too much difference. The character creation system seems like the Karma and Priority system from other versions sort of awkwardly spooning. The majority of the changes I see aren't really changes that seemed to NEED to be made.

For instance; instead of having a laundry list of guns that are virtually identical, have a list of gun parts that players assemble to create their own weapons for their own needs with a few pre-mades and do the same for vehicles. Simplify the explosives rules, any game rule that requires me to know/look up square roots of anything is far too complicated. The Matrix needs a little refinement to separate it a bit from the Magic system and make it a little less complex.

There are many more and there are dozens of great suggestions on implementing these points and others all over the forum.

My basic point is I feel like Shadowrun needed the "Pathfinder" treatment; a tweaking and refining of some rules, replacing of a very small few, and a general overall better polish. In SR5, it kinda feels almost exactly like SR4 with a few minor changes and the changes that did occur were not really necessary changes.

[RelentlessImp]

My basic point is I feel like Shadowrun needed the "Pathfinder" treatment; a tweaking and refining of some rules, replacing of a very small few, and a general overall better polish. In SR5, it kinda feels almost exactly like SR4 with a few minor changes and the changes that did occur were not really necessary changes.

If there's one thing Shadowrun does not need, it's the Pathfinder treatment. If, by Pathfinder treatment, you mean stating design goals and then changing things so that those promised design goals alienate what WOULD have been your playerbase and the only playerbase remaining is those who are only staying around because you're the only game supporting their hobby and are too used to being fragged up the poop-chute to care.

[Abstruse]

If you think SR5 is just SR4 with some errata, you haven't been paying attention. They stripped SR4A down to the bones and rebuilt it from there. I've been playing this game since the year Second Edition was released and Shadowrun was my first roleplaying game, even before D&D. This is hands down the best edition we've gotten for this game. There's more than a few rough edges (see the 10 page long errata thread), but that's still NOTHING compared to the clusterfrag SR4 was in its original printing. They've fixed almost every single major problem Shadowrun has had since 1st Edition and the few that are left realistically can't go away based on the style of game and the setting. The few new problems they've caused aren't a hundredth of the problems that SR4 caused trying to fix the exact same problems. I love this edition of the game and I can't wait to get more in a few months when the advanced combat rules come out.

[Sendaz]

I have to admit when I first heard some of the changes being made it was a bit unsettling, but being able to go through the material and see it in play more has gone a ways to making it more palatable.

The magic has changed a bit since SR4 in regards to direct damage vs indirect damage and it does add more flavour to it.

Drain has been changed around a bit, but for spells cast at Force equal to or less than your magic you won't really notice the difference but at the higher end and more AOE it's noticeable which is as it should be.

I liked what they have done with the elemental effects so far and can't wait to see what the Magic splat book will have for the other elements and spell formulating.

Still trying to wrap my head around the matrix/driving stuff, will just take time.

Give it a try first and if you still do not like it, pathfind it to your heart's content, but some stuff may stick more on ya than you first believe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Socinus]

I am by no means saying SR5 is bad or worse than SR4. I am saying that I feel like SR5 had the right idea of making changes to the SR4 framework without messing too much with the system but it made the wrong kinds of changes. It made changes that were necessary but it didnt go as far as it should have in key areas.

I'm absolutely open to seeing it differently once I play a few games and again my assessment is after reading through the core rules.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

If you think SR5 is just SR4 with some errata, you haven't been paying attention. They stripped SR4A down to the bones and rebuilt it from there. I've been playing this game since the year Second Edition was released and Shadowrun was my first roleplaying game, even before D&D. This is hands down the best edition we've gotten for this game. There's more than a few rough edges (see the 10 page long errata thread), but that's still NOTHING compared to the clusterfrag SR4 was in its original printing. They've fixed almost every single major problem Shadowrun has had since 1st Edition and the few that are left realistically can't go away based on the style of game and the setting. The few new problems they've caused aren't a hundredth of the problems that SR4 caused trying to fix the exact same problems. I love this edition of the game and I can't wait to get more in a few months when the advanced combat rules come out.

The elegance of the new group dynamics brought about by the Matrix alone made this edition worth it.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[SpellBinder]

The elegance of the new group dynamics brought about by the Matrix alone made this edition worth it.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

I don't know... But that's me. I can see a few things I'd tweak just a little.

[Abstruse]

All I have to say further is that if you haven't actually PLAYED in this edition - and I don't mean read the book and made a few characters, but actually say around a table and PLAYED a game under these rules - you're not going to understand how deeply yet brilliantly and simplistically they changed things. The game is easier to play than ever, but feels more like Shadowrun than the game has since the 1st/2nd era.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

I don't know... But that's me. I can see a few things I'd tweak just a little.

Sure. I'm sure everyone can find something to nitpick. But the fundamentals appear strong.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[SpellBinder]

No, sure, there's a lot of good I see in SR5. It's just some little stuff where I feel the developers might've swung a little too far.

Now if I had missed SR4 entirely, I know my feelings would be completely different.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

No, sure, there's a lot of good I see in SR5. It's just some little stuff where I feel the developers might've swung a little too far.

Might be. Truth be told, I wish that limits came into play more than they do presently.

Now if I had missed SR4 entirely, I know my feelings would be completely different.

Right. I'm in that camp. Guilty as charged.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[phlapjack77]

Might be. Truth be told, I wish that limits came into play more than they do presently.

I'm really curious to see if they come up in actual gameplay as often as my gut says they will - I've seen the math on it, so now I'm more interested in the "feel".

Right now, it looks like the situations where limits matter are slim to none. Have to see how that pans out in gameplay...

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

I'm really curious to see if they come up in actual gameplay as often as my gut says they will - I've seen the math on it, so now I'm more interested in the "feel".

Right now, it looks like the situations where limits matter are slim to none. Have to see how that pans out in gameplay...

I suspect that in many day-to-day gaming situations, they won't matter too much. However. I'm almost certain that every Shadowrun 5th edition player will have a critical moment in their life where they should have spent edge to raise their limit... and they didn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[LovesTha]

Limits are more about their impact on character creation than game play directly. They are to make it hard to make it worthwhile getting a dice pool up to 30 dice.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The elegance of the new group dynamics brought about by the Matrix alone made this edition worth it.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

If by Elegance, you actually mean InElegance, then I would agree with you. Some needed changes that were made are nice, but others are so poorly implemented as to be downright useless. *shrug*

[DWC]

Limits are more about their impact on character creation than game play directly. They are to make it hard to make it worthwhile getting a dice pool up to 30 dice.

Quite the opposite. They mean that if you're going for a giant dice pool, you are also building for a way to make use of it. Or you're just planning to constantly eat the -10 to Triple Mark everything.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Limits are more about their impact on character creation than game play directly. They are to make it hard to make it worthwhile getting a dice pool up to 30 dice.

DP's above 20 are just never needed, so, that is why I hate the Limit system. For me it does not matter whether or not it actually functions as intended, it still feels like a punishment, and it irritates me. I think that you will see wild swings, depending upon the character design. You will see characters who never hit one of the limiuts (whichever they design for) and then they will have the Limit that they crash against constantly, becasue they don't care as much about that category of the game. But to punish them for that is bad design, in my opinion.

[DWC]

The way I see it, if you're not crashing up against your limits in the ideal situation, it's an indicator that you don't have the spare DP to handle large penalties and will fail spectacularly when you encounter an adverse situation. That assumes that your limits aren't ridiculously low because you're physically or mentally deficient or are working with garbage gear.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The way I see it, if you're not crashing up against your limits in the ideal situation, it's an indicator that you don't have the spare DP to handle large penalties and will fail spectacularly when you encounter an adverse situation. That assumes that your limits aren't ridiculously low because you're physically or mentally deficient or are working with garbage gear.

You do not need DP to do that, though. Take the Adept, for example. He can offset DP penalties due to Adept Centering. So, a DP of 12 is quite nice if he is an Initiate Grade 4, and also has the Heightened Concentration Ability. He acts with the ame DP's, but can ignore a LOT of penalty dice when needed. Mages do the same (Sustaining Foci, etc). Sadly, Mundanes can't reliably perform the same trick, but you get my meaning, I'm sure.

Besides, define an Adverse Situation... If you have not done enough homework to eliminate much of the swing of the "plan does not survive initial contact" then, well, you should probably plan some more. You can eliminate many of the Adverse Situation variables with proper planning. Unless you have flaming Pink Mohawks; then yes, your DP is everything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DWC]

Some of the Adverse Situation issues can be planned out. However, non-Adepts can't beatbox their way through al the situational modifiers.

I would also argue that being able to reliably perform under difficult circumstances gives more flexibility in planning. When you know your team can perform as well hanging off the side of a building in a driving rain that they do sitting at a workbench in a climate controlled machine shop, you aren't constrained as much in your planning.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Some of the Adverse Situation issues can be planned out. However, non-Adepts can't beatbox their way through al the situational modifiers.

I would also argue that being able to reliably perform under difficult circumstances gives more flexibility in planning. When you know your team can perform as well hanging off the side of a building in a driving rain that they do sitting at a workbench in a climate controlled machine shop, you aren't constrained as much in your planning.

Very true... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Catsnightmare]

So it still uses fixed target numbers and bonus/penalty to the number of dice you roll?

[Jaid]

So it still uses fixed target numbers and bonus/penalty to the number of dice you roll?

yes.

but now there are limits to how many hits you can get on most tests. otherwise it is mostly the same.

[Catsnightmare]

Then it's still not worth touching with a ten meter pole.
I'll save my gaming money for my tabletop war gaming fleets.

[Epicedion]

Then it's still not worth touching with a ten meter pole.
I'll save my gaming money for my tabletop war gaming fleets.

I'm about as big a proponent of variable TNs as there can be, and while I think I would've ultimately preferred a variable TN (perhaps simplified so that TNs don't go above 6) the way they've rebuilt the SR4 systems around the fixed TN looks a whole lot better than its SR4 implementation.

At any rate, SR5 is worth checking out for the changes to Magic and Matrix alone. The Matrix is, daresay, what it should've been in SR4 rather than a hybridized version of the wired Matrix that tried to keep the general structure while opening up everything to wireless access in such a way that made designing security a total nightmare.