Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Impressions on 4&5
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Socinus
Alright, so this is a culmination of a thought process I've had banging around since I heard about SR5. Full disclosure: my roommate purchased the PDF and I've had a chance to read through it a few times on his tablet, I have not studied it in depth.

When I heard there was a new edition coming out, I was...a little put off. I've only ever played SR4 but as far as I can see, it's a very good system. The overall framework of the system itself is very solid and plays very well, despite a bit of a learning curve. Given the givens, I feel it represents the potential randomness of the real world fairly well, it allows for and encourages player creativity both in gameplay and building a character, and it allows for a sense of challenge as well as giving the player a sense of personal ability and power. It is, in short, fun.

There are terabytes worth of pages on this forum alone highlighting the holes (and there are many) in the SR4 system, I have no need to flog that particular fossilized horse anymore. But that said, the overwhelming majority of the problems I've found personally and seen during play were things that could ultimately be fixed without replacing the entire system. I feel like we needed some basic fixes rather than graduating to a whole new system.

That said, after reading through the corebook for SR5, I'm not actually seeing too much difference. The character creation system seems like the Karma and Priority system from other versions sort of awkwardly spooning. The majority of the changes I see aren't really changes that seemed to NEED to be made.

For instance; instead of having a laundry list of guns that are virtually identical, have a list of gun parts that players assemble to create their own weapons for their own needs with a few pre-mades and do the same for vehicles. Simplify the explosives rules, any game rule that requires me to know/look up square roots of anything is far too complicated. The Matrix needs a little refinement to separate it a bit from the Magic system and make it a little less complex.

There are many more and there are dozens of great suggestions on implementing these points and others all over the forum.

My basic point is I feel like Shadowrun needed the "Pathfinder" treatment; a tweaking and refining of some rules, replacing of a very small few, and a general overall better polish. In SR5, it kinda feels almost exactly like SR4 with a few minor changes and the changes that did occur were not really necessary changes.
RelentlessImp
QUOTE (Socinus @ Jul 17 2013, 09:08 PM) *
My basic point is I feel like Shadowrun needed the "Pathfinder" treatment; a tweaking and refining of some rules, replacing of a very small few, and a general overall better polish. In SR5, it kinda feels almost exactly like SR4 with a few minor changes and the changes that did occur were not really necessary changes.


If there's one thing Shadowrun does not need, it's the Pathfinder treatment. If, by Pathfinder treatment, you mean stating design goals and then changing things so that those promised design goals alienate what WOULD have been your playerbase and the only playerbase remaining is those who are only staying around because you're the only game supporting their hobby and are too used to being fragged up the poop-chute to care.
Abstruse
If you think SR5 is just SR4 with some errata, you haven't been paying attention. They stripped SR4A down to the bones and rebuilt it from there. I've been playing this game since the year Second Edition was released and Shadowrun was my first roleplaying game, even before D&D. This is hands down the best edition we've gotten for this game. There's more than a few rough edges (see the 10 page long errata thread), but that's still NOTHING compared to the clusterfrag SR4 was in its original printing. They've fixed almost every single major problem Shadowrun has had since 1st Edition and the few that are left realistically can't go away based on the style of game and the setting. The few new problems they've caused aren't a hundredth of the problems that SR4 caused trying to fix the exact same problems. I love this edition of the game and I can't wait to get more in a few months when the advanced combat rules come out.
Sendaz
I have to admit when I first heard some of the changes being made it was a bit unsettling, but being able to go through the material and see it in play more has gone a ways to making it more palatable.

The magic has changed a bit since SR4 in regards to direct damage vs indirect damage and it does add more flavour to it.

Drain has been changed around a bit, but for spells cast at Force equal to or less than your magic you won't really notice the difference but at the higher end and more AOE it's noticeable which is as it should be.

I liked what they have done with the elemental effects so far and can't wait to see what the Magic splat book will have for the other elements and spell formulating.

Still trying to wrap my head around the matrix/driving stuff, will just take time.

Give it a try first and if you still do not like it, pathfind it to your heart's content, but some stuff may stick more on ya than you first believe. wink.gif
Socinus
I am by no means saying SR5 is bad or worse than SR4. I am saying that I feel like SR5 had the right idea of making changes to the SR4 framework without messing too much with the system but it made the wrong kinds of changes. It made changes that were necessary but it didnt go as far as it should have in key areas.

I'm absolutely open to seeing it differently once I play a few games and again my assessment is after reading through the core rules.
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Abstruse @ Jul 18 2013, 02:21 AM) *
If you think SR5 is just SR4 with some errata, you haven't been paying attention. They stripped SR4A down to the bones and rebuilt it from there. I've been playing this game since the year Second Edition was released and Shadowrun was my first roleplaying game, even before D&D. This is hands down the best edition we've gotten for this game. There's more than a few rough edges (see the 10 page long errata thread), but that's still NOTHING compared to the clusterfrag SR4 was in its original printing. They've fixed almost every single major problem Shadowrun has had since 1st Edition and the few that are left realistically can't go away based on the style of game and the setting. The few new problems they've caused aren't a hundredth of the problems that SR4 caused trying to fix the exact same problems. I love this edition of the game and I can't wait to get more in a few months when the advanced combat rules come out.


The elegance of the new group dynamics brought about by the Matrix alone made this edition worth it.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 17 2013, 08:07 PM) *
The elegance of the new group dynamics brought about by the Matrix alone made this edition worth it.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
I don't know... But that's me. I can see a few things I'd tweak just a little.
Abstruse
All I have to say further is that if you haven't actually PLAYED in this edition - and I don't mean read the book and made a few characters, but actually say around a table and PLAYED a game under these rules - you're not going to understand how deeply yet brilliantly and simplistically they changed things. The game is easier to play than ever, but feels more like Shadowrun than the game has since the 1st/2nd era.
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 18 2013, 04:19 AM) *
I don't know... But that's me. I can see a few things I'd tweak just a little.


Sure. I'm sure everyone can find something to nitpick. But the fundamentals appear strong.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
SpellBinder
No, sure, there's a lot of good I see in SR5. It's just some little stuff where I feel the developers might've swung a little too far.

Now if I had missed SR4 entirely, I know my feelings would be completely different.
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 18 2013, 03:44 AM) *
No, sure, there's a lot of good I see in SR5. It's just some little stuff where I feel the developers might've swung a little too far.


Might be. Truth be told, I wish that limits came into play more than they do presently.

QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 18 2013, 03:44 AM) *
Now if I had missed SR4 entirely, I know my feelings would be completely different.


Right. I'm in that camp. Guilty as charged.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 18 2013, 11:48 AM) *
Might be. Truth be told, I wish that limits came into play more than they do presently.
I'm really curious to see if they come up in actual gameplay as often as my gut says they will - I've seen the math on it, so now I'm more interested in the "feel".

Right now, it looks like the situations where limits matter are slim to none. Have to see how that pans out in gameplay...
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Jul 18 2013, 04:22 AM) *
I'm really curious to see if they come up in actual gameplay as often as my gut says they will - I've seen the math on it, so now I'm more interested in the "feel".

Right now, it looks like the situations where limits matter are slim to none. Have to see how that pans out in gameplay...


I suspect that in many day-to-day gaming situations, they won't matter too much. However. I'm almost certain that every Shadowrun 5th edition player will have a critical moment in their life where they should have spent edge to raise their limit... and they didn't. wink.gif

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
LovesTha
Limits are more about their impact on character creation than game play directly. They are to make it hard to make it worthwhile getting a dice pool up to 30 dice.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 17 2013, 08:07 PM) *
The elegance of the new group dynamics brought about by the Matrix alone made this edition worth it.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS


If by Elegance, you actually mean InElegance, then I would agree with you. Some needed changes that were made are nice, but others are so poorly implemented as to be downright useless. *shrug*
DWC
QUOTE (LovesTha @ Jul 18 2013, 01:19 AM) *
Limits are more about their impact on character creation than game play directly. They are to make it hard to make it worthwhile getting a dice pool up to 30 dice.


Quite the opposite. They mean that if you're going for a giant dice pool, you are also building for a way to make use of it. Or you're just planning to constantly eat the -10 to Triple Mark everything.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (LovesTha @ Jul 17 2013, 10:19 PM) *
Limits are more about their impact on character creation than game play directly. They are to make it hard to make it worthwhile getting a dice pool up to 30 dice.


DP's above 20 are just never needed, so, that is why I hate the Limit system. For me it does not matter whether or not it actually functions as intended, it still feels like a punishment, and it irritates me. I think that you will see wild swings, depending upon the character design. You will see characters who never hit one of the limiuts (whichever they design for) and then they will have the Limit that they crash against constantly, becasue they don't care as much about that category of the game. But to punish them for that is bad design, in my opinion.
DWC
The way I see it, if you're not crashing up against your limits in the ideal situation, it's an indicator that you don't have the spare DP to handle large penalties and will fail spectacularly when you encounter an adverse situation. That assumes that your limits aren't ridiculously low because you're physically or mentally deficient or are working with garbage gear.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (DWC @ Jul 18 2013, 07:21 AM) *
The way I see it, if you're not crashing up against your limits in the ideal situation, it's an indicator that you don't have the spare DP to handle large penalties and will fail spectacularly when you encounter an adverse situation. That assumes that your limits aren't ridiculously low because you're physically or mentally deficient or are working with garbage gear.


You do not need DP to do that, though. Take the Adept, for example. He can offset DP penalties due to Adept Centering. So, a DP of 12 is quite nice if he is an Initiate Grade 4, and also has the Heightened Concentration Ability. He acts with the ame DP's, but can ignore a LOT of penalty dice when needed. Mages do the same (Sustaining Foci, etc). Sadly, Mundanes can't reliably perform the same trick, but you get my meaning, I'm sure.

Besides, define an Adverse Situation... If you have not done enough homework to eliminate much of the swing of the "plan does not survive initial contact" then, well, you should probably plan some more. You can eliminate many of the Adverse Situation variables with proper planning. Unless you have flaming Pink Mohawks; then yes, your DP is everything. smile.gif
DWC
Some of the Adverse Situation issues can be planned out. However, non-Adepts can't beatbox their way through al the situational modifiers.

I would also argue that being able to reliably perform under difficult circumstances gives more flexibility in planning. When you know your team can perform as well hanging off the side of a building in a driving rain that they do sitting at a workbench in a climate controlled machine shop, you aren't constrained as much in your planning.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (DWC @ Jul 18 2013, 08:37 AM) *
Some of the Adverse Situation issues can be planned out. However, non-Adepts can't beatbox their way through al the situational modifiers.

I would also argue that being able to reliably perform under difficult circumstances gives more flexibility in planning. When you know your team can perform as well hanging off the side of a building in a driving rain that they do sitting at a workbench in a climate controlled machine shop, you aren't constrained as much in your planning.


Very true... smile.gif
Catsnightmare
So it still uses fixed target numbers and bonus/penalty to the number of dice you roll?
Jaid
QUOTE (Catsnightmare @ Jul 18 2013, 12:28 PM) *
So it still uses fixed target numbers and bonus/penalty to the number of dice you roll?

yes.

but now there are limits to how many hits you can get on most tests. otherwise it is mostly the same.
Catsnightmare
Then it's still not worth touching with a ten meter pole.
I'll save my gaming money for my tabletop war gaming fleets.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Catsnightmare @ Jul 18 2013, 12:40 PM) *
Then it's still not worth touching with a ten meter pole.
I'll save my gaming money for my tabletop war gaming fleets.


I'm about as big a proponent of variable TNs as there can be, and while I think I would've ultimately preferred a variable TN (perhaps simplified so that TNs don't go above 6) the way they've rebuilt the SR4 systems around the fixed TN looks a whole lot better than its SR4 implementation.

At any rate, SR5 is worth checking out for the changes to Magic and Matrix alone. The Matrix is, daresay, what it should've been in SR4 rather than a hybridized version of the wired Matrix that tried to keep the general structure while opening up everything to wireless access in such a way that made designing security a total nightmare.
Isath
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 18 2013, 04:10 PM) *
DP's above 20 are just never needed, so, that is why I hate the Limit system. ---8<--- feels like a punishment, and it irritates me.


Funny, to me dicepools around and above 20 feel like a punishment. Honestly, why build a system around needing bucketloads of dice, when you can easily have a good system, using less of them. The appeal of dicepools, too large to fit into my hands, eludes me. Maybe I should do it like Cynderella and get some birds to help.
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 18 2013, 02:05 PM) *
If by Elegance, you actually mean InElegance, then I would agree with you. Some needed changes that were made are nice, but others are so poorly implemented as to be downright useless. *shrug*


Right, right. But at least we can agree that the Matrix in SR 4 was REALLY in need of some help, and every other edition has done it better. Including SR 5.

So, it's good that we see eye to eye on that. wink.gif

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Isath @ Jul 18 2013, 11:24 AM) *
Funny, to me dicepools around and above 20 feel like a punishment. Honestly, why build a system around needing bucketloads of dice, when you can easily have a good system, using less of them. The appeal of dicepools, too large to fit into my hands, eludes me. Maybe I should do it like Cynderella and get some birds to help.


We are in agreement here. I prefer my DP's to be in the 12-15 Range for Primary Skills. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 18 2013, 11:50 AM) *
Right, right. But at least we can agree that the Matrix in SR 4 was REALLY in need of some help, and every other edition has done it better. Including SR 5.

So, it's good that we see eye to eye on that. wink.gif

-Wired_SR_AEGIS


Heh... I actually think that 4A's rules for the Matrix are better than the previous editions (1, 2 and 3). I DO like much of the Matrix for 5th Edition (Still plowing through it to gain complete understanding) and am happy with it (though it is a bit wonky still, in my mind). I Think the perfect Matrix would be a bit of the Matrix of 4th Edition (Really do not like the reintroduction of Decks, but can live with it as more of an improved Comlink - which is really what they describe it as, thoguh I am completely unhappy about the prices involved) in addition to 5th. I might change my mind once I have mastered the nuances of 5th Edition's Matrix (Like I said, I like it).

So... MOSTLY in agreement. wobble.gif
SpellBinder
Friend of mine had a good theory as to why commlinks can't hack anymore and we've got the cyberdeck that comes with everything. Matrix security went through a major overhaul and commlinks now cannot run the necessary software to do anything like they used to. From what I've read thus far I've not gotten that impression that that's what's happened in universe, but seems plausible enough for me.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 18 2013, 06:49 PM) *
Friend of mine had a good theory as to why commlinks can't hack anymore and we've got the cyberdeck that comes with everything. Matrix security went through a major overhaul and commlinks now cannot run the necessary software to do anything like they used to. From what I've read thus far I've not gotten that impression that that's what's happened in universe, but seems plausible enough for me.


Seeing as how many of the 'Decks in universe [for shadowrunners, anyways] are initially cobbled together from Comlinks, that is not exactly true, in my opinion. You could have kept the Comlink as the Hacking Device, and just had upper-End models that actually used the other two attributes by adding additional Modules, without all of them doing so (Say that a Comlink could add DR-3 Hacking Modules to enable Hacking Functions].
Abstruse
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 18 2013, 06:49 PM) *
Friend of mine had a good theory as to why commlinks can't hack anymore and we've got the cyberdeck that comes with everything. Matrix security went through a major overhaul and commlinks now cannot run the necessary software to do anything like they used to. From what I've read thus far I've not gotten that impression that that's what's happened in universe, but seems plausible enough for me.

The explanation's pretty clear in STORM FRONT. The Corporate Counsel decided it wanted to implement new security protocols in the wake of "multiple terroristic attacks" via the Matrix. So they did so. They locked everything down tight, and it took breadboxing commlinks with new hardware to be able to crack that security. Looking at the rules and extrapolating to in-world impact, it's the most perfect computer security that has ever been accomplished. Hackers are completely locked out while legitimate users see absolutely NO difference in functionality. It's an IT security designer's wet dream.
quentra
QUOTE (Abstruse @ Jul 18 2013, 08:11 PM) *
The explanation's pretty clear in STORM FRONT. The Corporate Counsel decided it wanted to implement new security protocols in the wake of "multiple terroristic attacks" via the Matrix. So they did so. They locked everything down tight, and it took breadboxing commlinks with new hardware to be able to crack that security. Looking at the rules and extrapolating to in-world impact, it's the most perfect computer security that has ever been accomplished. Hackers are completely locked out while legitimate users see absolutely NO difference in functionality. It's an IT security designer's wet dream.


Hackers are locked out? Damn, I guess all those new hacking rules are useless frown.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (quentra @ Jul 18 2013, 07:12 PM) *
Hackers are locked out? Damn, I guess all those new hacking rules are useless frown.gif


Yeah, pretty much that... guess Hackers should invest in a Pizza Delivery franchise instead. frown.gif
Bigity
Might provide more profit than the guidelines for run payouts.
Remnar
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 18 2013, 05:38 PM) *
Yeah, pretty much that... guess Hackers should invest in a Pizza Delivery franchise instead. frown.gif


For the love of the Deliverator don't let those pizzas be more than 30 minutes late though...
Abstruse
QUOTE (quentra @ Jul 18 2013, 07:12 PM) *
Hackers are locked out? Damn, I guess all those new hacking rules are useless frown.gif

Compared to 4th edition? Where anyone with 50,000 to burn on pirated programs and a half-decent commlink could become a "hacker"? Yes, they were locked out. The new security standards required hackers to completely breadbox their commlinks with two new chips. They had to invent and cram into a computer TWO NEW CHIPS in order to do anything illegal on the "new" Matrix.

And even if you do that, you've got a maximum of five hours TOPS before GOD comes down on you hard after stepping out of line in the most meaningless way. And that's even if you perform the whatever it is you did PERFECTLY.

I've worked IT for the Department of Homeland Security and trust me, if they had a system remotely that tight, they would cream themselves.

(Yes, you can reboot your system to reset your OS and yes, hacking is still viable as a system from a game mechanics perspective...I'm looking at this from an in-word perspective, though, and GOD has got to be pretty damn pleased with themselves.)
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Abstruse @ Jul 18 2013, 06:11 PM) *
The explanation's pretty clear in STORM FRONT. ....
Honestly was looking for that in the new book where all the changes were.
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Remnar @ Jul 19 2013, 09:40 AM) *
For the love of the Deliverator don't let those pizzas be more than 30 minutes late though...
Uncle Enzo's not gonna be happy
Sendaz
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 18 2013, 08:59 PM) *
Honestly was looking for that in the new book where all the changes were.

Never gonna make it in the Sales Dept with that attitude. nyahnyah.gif
Socinus
After sitting down with a much more careful and thorough read-through, I have to stick somewhat with my initial assessment; good but it still feels (to borrow the words of a previous user) like SR4 with advanced errata applied. I don't hate it, I just feel like it was kind of a wasted swing; the sink was leaking and they spent thousands of dollars to remodel the kitchen in order to fix the leak while ignoring the toilet upstairs gushing water.

When I mentioned the "Pathfinder treatment" previously, I was talking about the general principal of the idea; 3.5 was a good(ish) system but with some more polish it could have been great. Pathfinder sanded off most of the burrs while leaving the structure and feel of the game more or less intact and tried to address the list of problems that 3.5 had without tearing it down and building it back up again from scratch. That was what I was hoping to see in SR5.

But I feel like that didn't happen as much as it should have or in the right places. I don't really see any effort made to address the D&D-esq problem of a metric ton of gear and weapons to sort through with very little difference (gear and weapons are, IMHO, a crippling weakness of SR in general), I don't see a lot of effort put into introducing new content or even doing much to the old aside from tweaking some of the costs, I don't see much clarity being brought into the fairly confusing shell-game that is armor, and a list of other smaller twerks that have been rehashed ad mortum in the community are still there.

SR5 feels unfinished, like this is an Alpha we're looking at on its way to being refined and adjusted more before release.

Do I hate it? Absolutely not. There's a reason I put Shadowrun as one of my favorite tabletops of all time and I will almost certainly be buying and playing SR5. That said, I feel somewhat let-down by SR5 and I see a lot of wasted potential that could have made a great game fucking spectacular.
quentra
QUOTE (Socinus @ Jul 19 2013, 02:53 AM) *
After sitting down with a much more careful and thorough read-through, I have to stick somewhat with my initial assessment; good but it still feels (to borrow the words of a previous user) like SR4 with advanced errata applied. I don't hate it, I just feel like it was kind of a wasted swing; the sink was leaking and they spent thousands of dollars to remodel the kitchen in order to fix the leak while ignoring the toilet upstairs gushing water.

When I mentioned the "Pathfinder treatment" previously, I was talking about the general principal of the idea; 3.5 was a good(ish) system but with some more polish it could have been great. Pathfinder sanded off most of the burrs while leaving the structure and feel of the game more or less intact and tried to address the list of problems that 3.5 had without tearing it down and building it back up again from scratch. That was what I was hoping to see in SR5.

But I feel like that didn't happen as much as it should have or in the right places. I don't really see any effort made to address the D&D-esq problem of a metric ton of gear and weapons to sort through with very little difference (gear and weapons are, IMHO, a crippling weakness of SR in general), I don't see a lot of effort put into introducing new content or even doing much to the old aside from tweaking some of the costs, I don't see much clarity being brought into the fairly confusing shell-game that is armor, and a list of other smaller twerks that have been rehashed ad mortum in the community are still there.

SR5 feels unfinished, like this is an Alpha we're looking at on its way to being refined and adjusted more before release.

Do I hate it? Absolutely not. There's a reason I put Shadowrun as one of my favorite tabletops of all time and I will almost certainly be buying and playing SR5. That said, I feel somewhat let-down by SR5 and I see a lot of wasted potential that could have made a great game fucking spectacular.


Not to derail the thread, but the Pathfinder treatment involved lying, lying, and lying, then finally everyone agreeing that they were just going have their GMs make shit up anyway, so it didn't really matter. I really hope that wasn't SR5's design.
phlapjack77
QUOTE (quentra @ Jul 19 2013, 11:33 PM) *
Not to derail the thread, but the Pathfinder treatment involved lying, lying, and lying, then finally everyone agreeing that they were just going have their GMs make shit up anyway, so it didn't really matter. I really hope that wasn't SR5's design.
I was thinking the same thing, but didn't want to bring it up. As you say, the "Pathfinder" way is not something to hold up as an example of how to make a good (read: good for players) game. It's maybe a good example of marketing success.
Socinus
Alright, we get it; Pathfinder business model bad. That was not the point of what I said.
RelentlessImp
QUOTE (Socinus @ Jul 19 2013, 02:53 AM) *
When I mentioned the "Pathfinder treatment" previously, I was talking about the general principal of the idea; 3.5 was a good(ish) system but with some more polish it could have been great. Pathfinder sanded off most of the burrs while leaving the structure and feel of the game more or less intact and tried to address the list of problems that 3.5 had without tearing it down and building it back up again from scratch. That was what I was hoping to see in SR5.


That's exactly what you saw in SR5. Some tweaking, some changes, but the difference is SR5 did actually fix some things while introducing other problems, rather than just shitting all over the system and fixing things that weren't broken and breaking more.
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 18 2013, 07:16 PM) *
Heh... I actually think that 4A's rules for the Matrix are better than the previous editions (1, 2 and 3). I DO like much of the Matrix for 5th Edition (Still plowing through it to gain complete understanding) and am happy with it (though it is a bit wonky still, in my mind). I Think the perfect Matrix would be a bit of the Matrix of 4th Edition (Really do not like the reintroduction of Decks, but can live with it as more of an improved Comlink - which is really what they describe it as, thoguh I am completely unhappy about the prices involved) in addition to 5th. I might change my mind once I have mastered the nuances of 5th Edition's Matrix (Like I said, I like it).

So... MOSTLY in agreement. wobble.gif


I'm getting REALLY disappointed with your failure to defend SR 4 against all assaults, Tymeaus. It's almost like we need to find a new Champion of the Edition. When we first met, you were on point. But lately? Lately it almost sounds like you're trying to be even handed, or something.

Those were completely reasonable statements you put up there, and frankly, what this internet needs is less of that and more of blind loyalty and inflamatory hyperbole. Can we get on the same page here?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 19 2013, 02:28 PM) *
I'm getting REALLY disappointed with your failure to defend SR 4 against all assaults, Tymeaus. It's almost like we need to find a new Champion of the Edition. When we first met, you were on point. But lately? Lately it almost sounds like you're trying to be even handed, or something.

Those were completely reasonable statements you put up there, and frankly, what this internet needs is less of that and more of blind loyalty and inflamatory hyperbole. Can we get on the same page here?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS


Gotcha... I will try to do better...
All Hail the Illimitable Glory of SR4A.
Socinus
QUOTE (RelentlessImp @ Jul 19 2013, 08:15 PM) *
That's exactly what you saw in SR5.

It isnt from what I've seen thus far. As I pointed out previously it feels somewhat like while changes were made, they were made too tentatively and there wasn't much actually new from SR4. Like I said, this feels like a Beta release; unfinished and unpolished. Small (but important) changes were made that helped increase the playability of the game but massive gaping wounds (like weapons, vehicles, and armor) were completely untouched and left to fester.

QUOTE
rather than just shitting all over the system and fixing things that weren't broken and breaking more.

Which is, frankly, what I feared. I was afraid there would be a move akin to what D&D 4th Ed did. Thankfully, that did not happen.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012