Impressions on 4&5 Options

[Isath]

DP's above 20 are just never needed, so, that is why I hate the Limit system. ---8<--- feels like a punishment, and it irritates me.

Funny, to me dicepools around and above 20 feel like a punishment. Honestly, why build a system around needing bucketloads of dice, when you can easily have a good system, using less of them. The appeal of dicepools, too large to fit into my hands, eludes me. Maybe I should do it like Cynderella and get some birds to help.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

If by Elegance, you actually mean InElegance, then I would agree with you. Some needed changes that were made are nice, but others are so poorly implemented as to be downright useless. *shrug*

Right, right. But at least we can agree that the Matrix in SR 4 was REALLY in need of some help, and every other edition has done it better. Including SR 5.

So, it's good that we see eye to eye on that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Funny, to me dicepools around and above 20 feel like a punishment. Honestly, why build a system around needing bucketloads of dice, when you can easily have a good system, using less of them. The appeal of dicepools, too large to fit into my hands, eludes me. Maybe I should do it like Cynderella and get some birds to help.

We are in agreement here. I prefer my DP's to be in the 12-15 Range for Primary Skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Right, right. But at least we can agree that the Matrix in SR 4 was REALLY in need of some help, and every other edition has done it better. Including SR 5.

So, it's good that we see eye to eye on that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Heh... I actually think that 4A's rules for the Matrix are better than the previous editions (1, 2 and 3). I DO like much of the Matrix for 5th Edition (Still plowing through it to gain complete understanding) and am happy with it (though it is a bit wonky still, in my mind). I Think the perfect Matrix would be a bit of the Matrix of 4th Edition (Really do not like the reintroduction of Decks, but can live with it as more of an improved Comlink - which is really what they describe it as, thoguh I am completely unhappy about the prices involved) in addition to 5th. I might change my mind once I have mastered the nuances of 5th Edition's Matrix (Like I said, I like it).

So... MOSTLY in agreement. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[SpellBinder]

Friend of mine had a good theory as to why commlinks can't hack anymore and we've got the cyberdeck that comes with everything. Matrix security went through a major overhaul and commlinks now cannot run the necessary software to do anything like they used to. From what I've read thus far I've not gotten that impression that that's what's happened in universe, but seems plausible enough for me.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Friend of mine had a good theory as to why commlinks can't hack anymore and we've got the cyberdeck that comes with everything. Matrix security went through a major overhaul and commlinks now cannot run the necessary software to do anything like they used to. From what I've read thus far I've not gotten that impression that that's what's happened in universe, but seems plausible enough for me.

Seeing as how many of the 'Decks in universe [for shadowrunners, anyways] are initially cobbled together from Comlinks, that is not exactly true, in my opinion. You could have kept the Comlink as the Hacking Device, and just had upper-End models that actually used the other two attributes by adding additional Modules, without all of them doing so (Say that a Comlink could add DR-3 Hacking Modules to enable Hacking Functions].

[Abstruse]

Friend of mine had a good theory as to why commlinks can't hack anymore and we've got the cyberdeck that comes with everything. Matrix security went through a major overhaul and commlinks now cannot run the necessary software to do anything like they used to. From what I've read thus far I've not gotten that impression that that's what's happened in universe, but seems plausible enough for me.

The explanation's pretty clear in STORM FRONT. The Corporate Counsel decided it wanted to implement new security protocols in the wake of "multiple terroristic attacks" via the Matrix. So they did so. They locked everything down tight, and it took breadboxing commlinks with new hardware to be able to crack that security. Looking at the rules and extrapolating to in-world impact, it's the most perfect computer security that has ever been accomplished. Hackers are completely locked out while legitimate users see absolutely NO difference in functionality. It's an IT security designer's wet dream.

[quentra]

The explanation's pretty clear in STORM FRONT. The Corporate Counsel decided it wanted to implement new security protocols in the wake of "multiple terroristic attacks" via the Matrix. So they did so. They locked everything down tight, and it took breadboxing commlinks with new hardware to be able to crack that security. Looking at the rules and extrapolating to in-world impact, it's the most perfect computer security that has ever been accomplished. Hackers are completely locked out while legitimate users see absolutely NO difference in functionality. It's an IT security designer's wet dream.

Hackers are locked out? Damn, I guess all those new hacking rules are useless (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hackers are locked out? Damn, I guess all those new hacking rules are useless (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Yeah, pretty much that... guess Hackers should invest in a Pizza Delivery franchise instead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Bigity]

Might provide more profit than the guidelines for run payouts.

[Remnar]

Yeah, pretty much that... guess Hackers should invest in a Pizza Delivery franchise instead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

For the love of the Deliverator don't let those pizzas be more than 30 minutes late though...

[Abstruse]

Hackers are locked out? Damn, I guess all those new hacking rules are useless (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Compared to 4th edition? Where anyone with 50,000¥ to burn on pirated programs and a half-decent commlink could become a "hacker"? Yes, they were locked out. The new security standards required hackers to completely breadbox their commlinks with two new chips. They had to invent and cram into a computer TWO NEW CHIPS in order to do anything illegal on the "new" Matrix.

And even if you do that, you've got a maximum of five hours TOPS before GOD comes down on you hard after stepping out of line in the most meaningless way. And that's even if you perform the whatever it is you did PERFECTLY.

I've worked IT for the Department of Homeland Security and trust me, if they had a system remotely that tight, they would cream themselves.

(Yes, you can reboot your system to reset your OS and yes, hacking is still viable as a system from a game mechanics perspective...I'm looking at this from an in-word perspective, though, and GOD has got to be pretty damn pleased with themselves.)

[SpellBinder]

The explanation's pretty clear in STORM FRONT. ....

Honestly was looking for that in the new book where all the changes were.

[phlapjack77]

For the love of the Deliverator don't let those pizzas be more than 30 minutes late though...

Uncle Enzo's not gonna be happy

[Sendaz]

Honestly was looking for that in the new book where all the changes were.

Never gonna make it in the Sales Dept with that attitude. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Socinus]

After sitting down with a much more careful and thorough read-through, I have to stick somewhat with my initial assessment; good but it still feels (to borrow the words of a previous user) like SR4 with advanced errata applied. I don't hate it, I just feel like it was kind of a wasted swing; the sink was leaking and they spent thousands of dollars to remodel the kitchen in order to fix the leak while ignoring the toilet upstairs gushing water.

When I mentioned the "Pathfinder treatment" previously, I was talking about the general principal of the idea; 3.5 was a good(ish) system but with some more polish it could have been great. Pathfinder sanded off most of the burrs while leaving the structure and feel of the game more or less intact and tried to address the list of problems that 3.5 had without tearing it down and building it back up again from scratch. That was what I was hoping to see in SR5.

But I feel like that didn't happen as much as it should have or in the right places. I don't really see any effort made to address the D&D-esq problem of a metric ton of gear and weapons to sort through with very little difference (gear and weapons are, IMHO, a crippling weakness of SR in general), I don't see a lot of effort put into introducing new content or even doing much to the old aside from tweaking some of the costs, I don't see much clarity being brought into the fairly confusing shell-game that is armor, and a list of other smaller twerks that have been rehashed ad mortum in the community are still there.

SR5 feels unfinished, like this is an Alpha we're looking at on its way to being refined and adjusted more before release.

Do I hate it? Absolutely not. There's a reason I put Shadowrun as one of my favorite tabletops of all time and I will almost certainly be buying and playing SR5. That said, I feel somewhat let-down by SR5 and I see a lot of wasted potential that could have made a great game fucking spectacular.

[quentra]

After sitting down with a much more careful and thorough read-through, I have to stick somewhat with my initial assessment; good but it still feels (to borrow the words of a previous user) like SR4 with advanced errata applied. I don't hate it, I just feel like it was kind of a wasted swing; the sink was leaking and they spent thousands of dollars to remodel the kitchen in order to fix the leak while ignoring the toilet upstairs gushing water.

When I mentioned the "Pathfinder treatment" previously, I was talking about the general principal of the idea; 3.5 was a good(ish) system but with some more polish it could have been great. Pathfinder sanded off most of the burrs while leaving the structure and feel of the game more or less intact and tried to address the list of problems that 3.5 had without tearing it down and building it back up again from scratch. That was what I was hoping to see in SR5.

But I feel like that didn't happen as much as it should have or in the right places. I don't really see any effort made to address the D&D-esq problem of a metric ton of gear and weapons to sort through with very little difference (gear and weapons are, IMHO, a crippling weakness of SR in general), I don't see a lot of effort put into introducing new content or even doing much to the old aside from tweaking some of the costs, I don't see much clarity being brought into the fairly confusing shell-game that is armor, and a list of other smaller twerks that have been rehashed ad mortum in the community are still there.

SR5 feels unfinished, like this is an Alpha we're looking at on its way to being refined and adjusted more before release.

Do I hate it? Absolutely not. There's a reason I put Shadowrun as one of my favorite tabletops of all time and I will almost certainly be buying and playing SR5. That said, I feel somewhat let-down by SR5 and I see a lot of wasted potential that could have made a great game fucking spectacular.

Not to derail the thread, but the Pathfinder treatment involved lying, lying, and lying, then finally everyone agreeing that they were just going have their GMs make shit up anyway, so it didn't really matter. I really hope that wasn't SR5's design.

[phlapjack77]

Not to derail the thread, but the Pathfinder treatment involved lying, lying, and lying, then finally everyone agreeing that they were just going have their GMs make shit up anyway, so it didn't really matter. I really hope that wasn't SR5's design.

I was thinking the same thing, but didn't want to bring it up. As you say, the "Pathfinder" way is not something to hold up as an example of how to make a good (read: good for players) game. It's maybe a good example of marketing success.

[Socinus]

Alright, we get it; Pathfinder business model bad. That was not the point of what I said.

[RelentlessImp]

When I mentioned the "Pathfinder treatment" previously, I was talking about the general principal of the idea; 3.5 was a good(ish) system but with some more polish it could have been great. Pathfinder sanded off most of the burrs while leaving the structure and feel of the game more or less intact and tried to address the list of problems that 3.5 had without tearing it down and building it back up again from scratch. That was what I was hoping to see in SR5.

That's exactly what you saw in SR5. Some tweaking, some changes, but the difference is SR5 did actually fix some things while introducing other problems, rather than just shitting all over the system and fixing things that weren't broken and breaking more.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Heh... I actually think that 4A's rules for the Matrix are better than the previous editions (1, 2 and 3). I DO like much of the Matrix for 5th Edition (Still plowing through it to gain complete understanding) and am happy with it (though it is a bit wonky still, in my mind). I Think the perfect Matrix would be a bit of the Matrix of 4th Edition (Really do not like the reintroduction of Decks, but can live with it as more of an improved Comlink - which is really what they describe it as, thoguh I am completely unhappy about the prices involved) in addition to 5th. I might change my mind once I have mastered the nuances of 5th Edition's Matrix (Like I said, I like it).

So... MOSTLY in agreement. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I'm getting REALLY disappointed with your failure to defend SR 4 against all assaults, Tymeaus. It's almost like we need to find a new Champion of the Edition. When we first met, you were on point. But lately? Lately it almost sounds like you're trying to be even handed, or something.

Those were completely reasonable statements you put up there, and frankly, what this internet needs is less of that and more of blind loyalty and inflamatory hyperbole. Can we get on the same page here?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm getting REALLY disappointed with your failure to defend SR 4 against all assaults, Tymeaus. It's almost like we need to find a new Champion of the Edition. When we first met, you were on point. But lately? Lately it almost sounds like you're trying to be even handed, or something.

Those were completely reasonable statements you put up there, and frankly, what this internet needs is less of that and more of blind loyalty and inflamatory hyperbole. Can we get on the same page here?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Gotcha... I will try to do better...
All Hail the Illimitable Glory of SR4A.

[Socinus]

That's exactly what you saw in SR5.

It isnt from what I've seen thus far. As I pointed out previously it feels somewhat like while changes were made, they were made too tentatively and there wasn't much actually new from SR4. Like I said, this feels like a Beta release; unfinished and unpolished. Small (but important) changes were made that helped increase the playability of the game but massive gaping wounds (like weapons, vehicles, and armor) were completely untouched and left to fester.

rather than just shitting all over the system and fixing things that weren't broken and breaking more.

Which is, frankly, what I feared. I was afraid there would be a move akin to what D&D 4th Ed did. Thankfully, that did not happen.