Can you take an initiation grade at chargen? Options

[Roy Fokker]

The title pretty much says it all. I don't see any restriction about taking metamagic anywhere in chargen so figured I'd check to make sure I didn't miss something. I realize that it doesn't include a magic attribute increase but the base initiation karma cost is easily attainable with the starting 25 karma for tweaking a character.

[Jaid]

maybe. the only explicit restriction is what your GM says. the only explicit permission is what your GM says. there is no clear statement one way or the other, only interpretations based on what the book does or does not say about related topics.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

maybe. the only explicit restriction is what your GM says. the only explicit permission is what your GM says. there is no clear statement one way or the other, only interpretations based on what the book does or does not say about related topics.

My recollection of historical precedent is that Initiation cannot be performed during Chargen. Only once the game begins.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Short answer: Yes. Quoting myself from a different thread on the same issue:

Ah. I'm reading that passage to allow initiation.

Let's dissect the passage which refers to this table: "Any remaining Karma can now be invested in smoothing out any rough edges, picking up or improving skills, buying additional spells, acquiring bound spirits, bonding foci to be used at the start of the game, purchasing contacts, etc. Refer to the Additional Purchases and Restrictions table to note any special restrictions on purchasing items with Karma. If a player wishes to keep some Karma for use later in the game, she may do so, though the maximum carryover is 7 Karma. When raising skills and attributes, keep in mind the various restrictions of character creation: Only one attribute can be at the natural attribute limit, and gear is restricted to items with Device Ratings of 6 or less or an Availability of 12 or less. These rules still apply to when you are spending Karma. "

Emphases mine, obviously. I've highlighted these words to point a few things out:

--"Smoothing out any rough edges/etc.": These words seem to imply that anything not specifically prohibited should be allowed. Note that neither attributes nor gear is mentioned in this list.

--"...to note any special restrictions on purchasing items with karma.": The word "to" is crucial here; I'm taking it to mean that one can make Karma purchases as normal except where noted on the chart. If one could only purchase items on the chart, once couldn't purchase attributes or gear--both items clearly meant to be allowed by....

--"...skills and attributes.../...attribute.../...gear...": This passage is poorly edited, because it says "skills and attributes" at the beginning and then describes the limitations for gear and attributes. with that said, there are two implications of note here. First, attributes and gear are (here and elsewhere) shown to be included as options for purchase; second, neither of their relevant limits are included on the table. This furthers the hypothesis that the chart is only meant to restrict the items mentioned, ant not all others by omission.

In other words, because there is no text to the contrary and generous language in the opening part of the passage, my reading is that one can pretty clearly initiate (or submerge) during step seven of creation.

[Jaid]

Short answer: Yes. Quoting myself from a different thread on the same issue:

yeah, that's an assumption based on what the chargen rules don't tell us. it's far too easy for that to just have been something they forgot.

not saying that initiation isn't intended to be allowed. just saying that it really isn't strong evidence that initiation is intended to be allowed. or that it isn't, for that matter. unless and until we get a clarification from catalyst (note: imo, your best bet is to ask the missions team. they have a much better track record of actually providing answers to difficult rules questions because unlike, say, the line developer, who is in charge of publishing errata, the missions end of the business is actually in charge of providing a consistent play experience for a group of paying customers. so, for example, the missions people will generally not sit on an FAQ answer or errata that will resolve frustrating situations, while the line developer could, theoretically, just sit on errata for various sourcebooks for months or years at a time, plug his ears, and pretend like there aren't any mistakes in need of fixing. kinda like how we're told is exactly what happened with errata for various SR4 books that *still* hasn't been released, and which by this point i suspect never will be released).

[RHat]

Note that dev/freelancer commentary has suggested that it was intended that it not be allowed.

[Shortstraw]

Note that dev/freelancer commentary has suggested that it was intended that it not be allowed.

It's legal till I hold the errata in my hands (or Stahlseele tells us the German version says no initiation).

Edit: If there is errata but the German version disagrees I will stick to the German.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

It's legal till I hold the errata in my hands (or Stahlseele tells us the German version says no initiation).

Edit: If there is errata but the German version disagrees I will stick to the German.

Has it ever been allowed in previous editions?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Ricochet]

Has it ever been allowed in previous editions?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

no

[CodeBreaker]

However, is there any reason not to allow it? Does it allow you to build really broken characters (not that I know of)? Does it allow you to enable particular concepts (yes, technomancer riggers for example)?

So I would say that you should allow it simply because there is no reason not to.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

no

I didn't think so. Where would that put the burden of proof?

However, is there any reason not to allow it? Does it allow you to build really broken characters (not that I know of)? Does it allow you to enable particular concepts (yes, technomancer riggers for example)?

So I would say that you should allow it simply because there is no reason not to.

Limitations on advancement are at the core of what balances Awakened Archetypes against a Mundane Archetypes.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[RelentlessImp]

I didn't think so. Where would that put the burden of proof?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

On the developers for not outlining what can and cannot be done; for not thinking of a different name for Step 7 than 'Karma', or making it look in any way different from post-chargen-earned karma. It's the same thing, especially given that you can carry over up to 7 points of it post-chargen.

[Cochise]

Has it ever been allowed in previous editions?

Yes ... p. 15, Shadowrun Companion (3rd Ed)

Resources:
[..]
In addition to the standard uses for Spell Points during character generation, gamemasters may allow player characters to use Spell Points in place of Karma Points in order to begin the game as an initiate, to summon and maintain ally spirits and so on.
[..]

Technically with that rule one could create a grade 4 initiate, when used in conjunction with buying additional spell points up to a combined total of 50 coming from bought ones (25k back then) and the ones you automatically got depending on magician type.
The only magician type that could seriously use that however, was the conjurer aspected magician, preferably with a shamanistic tradition ... but then with "Force": Centering, Invoking, Channeling and Masking from start.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

On the developers for not outlining what can and cannot be done; for not thinking of a different name for Step 7 than 'Karma', or making it look in any way different from post-chargen-earned karma. It's the same thing, especially given that you can carry over up to 7 points of it post-chargen.

'The Developers' is not a valid choice.

The valid choice is that the burden of proof resides on allowing initiation, or not allowing initiation.

'The Developers' are a party responsible for providing proof, not one of the two disputed interpretation.

Yes ... p. 15, Shadowrun Companion (3rd Ed)

Resources:
[..]
In addition to the standard uses for Spell Points during character generation, gamemasters may allow player characters to use Spell Points in place of Karma Points in order to begin the game as an initiate, to summon and maintain ally spirits and so on.
[..]

Technically with that rule one could create a grade 4 initiate, when used in conjunction with buying additional spell points up to a combined total of 50 coming from bought ones (25k back then) and the ones you automatically got depending on magician type.
The only magician type that could seriously use that however, was the conjurer aspected magician, preferably with a shamanistic tradition ... but then with "Force": Centering, Invoking, Channeling and Masking from start.

Good catch. So, it sounds like it may be allowed at GM discretion with an optional rule set.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Shemhazai]

Does Initiation cost the same Karma as before? Then you could initiate three times and use metatype points to push Magic to 9. That would save lots of Karma.

[Sendaz]

Does Initiation cost the same Karma as before? Then you could initiate three times and use metatype points to push Magic to 9. That would save lots of Karma.

This is probably why the devs didn't specifically mention initiation in chargen, hoping you wouldn't do that, but ultimately it's to the GM's discretion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But that also means sucking up 48 ([cost 10 + (grade x 3)] so 13,16,19)karma so basically using all of the initial 25 plus 23 pts of negatives and not leaving much for anything else.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Does Initiation cost the same Karma as before? Then you could initiate three times and use metatype points to push Magic to 9. That would save lots of Karma.

At 13 +16 + 19 (48 Total Karma), How are you initiating 3 Times?

EDIT: Ninja'd by Sendaz...

[Grinder]

Has it ever been allowed in previous editions?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Seeing how much SR5 differs from previous editions in its treatment of magic users and the filthy rest: who cares what has been allowed in previous editions? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Seeing how much SR5 differs from previous editions in its treatment of magic users and the filthy rest: who cares what has been allowed in previous editions? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

The Filthy Rest? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

But that also means sucking up 48 ([cost 10 + (grade x 3)] so 13,16,19)karma so basically using all of the initial 25 plus 23 pts of negatives and not leaving much for anything else.

If allowed, it would probably be completely worth it, particularly if Metahuman Special Attributes are allowed to increase magic.

Raising Magic from 6 --> 9 costs: 35 + 40 + 45 karma = 120 karma. Raising Edge from 1 to 4 would cost 10 + 15 + 20 karma. 45 Karma. Dumping Edge to boost Magic to 9 has net gain of 75 Karma.

That would probably be among the simplest, most straightforward 'optimized' choices you could make as an Awakened Character. The only excuse for not doing it would be not knowing it was an option.

Seeing how much SR5 differs from previous editions in its treatment of magic users and the filthy rest: who cares what has been allowed in previous editions? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I hadn't noticed that SR 5 treats Magic Users as fundamentally different than it had previous editions?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Grinder]

The Filthy Rest? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

You know... mundanes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Grinder]

I hadn't noticed that SR 5 treats Magic Users as fundamentally different than it had previous editions?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

It nerfed the street sams while at the same time magic users didn't get nerfed nearly at the same level.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You know... mundanes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Yep... Got it... All the rest of us... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

It nerfed the street sams while at the same time magic users didn't get nerfed nearly at the same level.

Right. But that's not a fundamental change. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Shemhazai]

Even better, use Exceptional Attribute (Magic) and initiate twice. Start with 9 Magic and 7 Karma left over. Is there any way to squeeze out another point of Magic at chargen?