Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Can you take an initiation grade at chargen?
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Roy Fokker
The title pretty much says it all. I don't see any restriction about taking metamagic anywhere in chargen so figured I'd check to make sure I didn't miss something. I realize that it doesn't include a magic attribute increase but the base initiation karma cost is easily attainable with the starting 25 karma for tweaking a character.
Jaid
maybe. the only explicit restriction is what your GM says. the only explicit permission is what your GM says. there is no clear statement one way or the other, only interpretations based on what the book does or does not say about related topics.
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 19 2013, 03:49 AM) *
maybe. the only explicit restriction is what your GM says. the only explicit permission is what your GM says. there is no clear statement one way or the other, only interpretations based on what the book does or does not say about related topics.


My recollection of historical precedent is that Initiation cannot be performed during Chargen. Only once the game begins.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
tsuyoshikentsu
Short answer: Yes. Quoting myself from a different thread on the same issue:

QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ Jul 13 2013, 08:09 PM) *
Ah. I'm reading that passage to allow initiation.

Let's dissect the passage which refers to this table: "Any remaining Karma can now be invested in smoothing out any rough edges, picking up or improving skills, buying additional spells, acquiring bound spirits, bonding foci to be used at the start of the game, purchasing contacts, etc. Refer to the Additional Purchases and Restrictions table to note any special restrictions on purchasing items with Karma. If a player wishes to keep some Karma for use later in the game, she may do so, though the maximum carryover is 7 Karma. When raising skills and attributes, keep in mind the various restrictions of character creation: Only one attribute can be at the natural attribute limit, and gear is restricted to items with Device Ratings of 6 or less or an Availability of 12 or less. These rules still apply to when you are spending Karma. "

Emphases mine, obviously. I've highlighted these words to point a few things out:

--"Smoothing out any rough edges/etc.": These words seem to imply that anything not specifically prohibited should be allowed. Note that neither attributes nor gear is mentioned in this list.

--"...to note any special restrictions on purchasing items with karma.": The word "to" is crucial here; I'm taking it to mean that one can make Karma purchases as normal except where noted on the chart. If one could only purchase items on the chart, once couldn't purchase attributes or gear--both items clearly meant to be allowed by....

--"...skills and attributes.../...attribute.../...gear...": This passage is poorly edited, because it says "skills and attributes" at the beginning and then describes the limitations for gear and attributes. with that said, there are two implications of note here. First, attributes and gear are (here and elsewhere) shown to be included as options for purchase; second, neither of their relevant limits are included on the table. This furthers the hypothesis that the chart is only meant to restrict the items mentioned, ant not all others by omission.

In other words, because there is no text to the contrary and generous language in the opening part of the passage, my reading is that one can pretty clearly initiate (or submerge) during step seven of creation.

Jaid
QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ Jul 19 2013, 12:05 AM) *
Short answer: Yes. Quoting myself from a different thread on the same issue:


yeah, that's an assumption based on what the chargen rules don't tell us. it's far too easy for that to just have been something they forgot.

not saying that initiation isn't intended to be allowed. just saying that it really isn't strong evidence that initiation is intended to be allowed. or that it isn't, for that matter. unless and until we get a clarification from catalyst (note: imo, your best bet is to ask the missions team. they have a much better track record of actually providing answers to difficult rules questions because unlike, say, the line developer, who is in charge of publishing errata, the missions end of the business is actually in charge of providing a consistent play experience for a group of paying customers. so, for example, the missions people will generally not sit on an FAQ answer or errata that will resolve frustrating situations, while the line developer could, theoretically, just sit on errata for various sourcebooks for months or years at a time, plug his ears, and pretend like there aren't any mistakes in need of fixing. kinda like how we're told is exactly what happened with errata for various SR4 books that *still* hasn't been released, and which by this point i suspect never will be released).
RHat
Note that dev/freelancer commentary has suggested that it was intended that it not be allowed.
Shortstraw
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 19 2013, 03:35 PM) *
Note that dev/freelancer commentary has suggested that it was intended that it not be allowed.

It's legal till I hold the errata in my hands (or Stahlseele tells us the German version says no initiation).

Edit: If there is errata but the German version disagrees I will stick to the German.
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Shortstraw @ Jul 19 2013, 09:54 AM) *
It's legal till I hold the errata in my hands (or Stahlseele tells us the German version says no initiation).

Edit: If there is errata but the German version disagrees I will stick to the German.


Has it ever been allowed in previous editions?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Ricochet
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 19 2013, 01:29 PM) *
Has it ever been allowed in previous editions?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS



no
CodeBreaker
However, is there any reason not to allow it? Does it allow you to build really broken characters (not that I know of)? Does it allow you to enable particular concepts (yes, technomancer riggers for example)?

So I would say that you should allow it simply because there is no reason not to.
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Ricochet @ Jul 19 2013, 06:37 PM) *
no

I didn't think so. Where would that put the burden of proof?
QUOTE (CodeBreaker @ Jul 19 2013, 06:39 PM) *
However, is there any reason not to allow it? Does it allow you to build really broken characters (not that I know of)? Does it allow you to enable particular concepts (yes, technomancer riggers for example)?

So I would say that you should allow it simply because there is no reason not to.

Limitations on advancement are at the core of what balances Awakened Archetypes against a Mundane Archetypes.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
RelentlessImp
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 19 2013, 12:40 PM) *
I didn't think so. Where would that put the burden of proof?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS


On the developers for not outlining what can and cannot be done; for not thinking of a different name for Step 7 than 'Karma', or making it look in any way different from post-chargen-earned karma. It's the same thing, especially given that you can carry over up to 7 points of it post-chargen.
Cochise
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 19 2013, 08:29 PM) *
Has it ever been allowed in previous editions?


Yes ... p. 15, Shadowrun Companion (3rd Ed)

Resources:
[..]
In addition to the standard uses for Spell Points during character generation, gamemasters may allow player characters to use Spell Points in place of Karma Points in order to begin the game as an initiate, to summon and maintain ally spirits and so on.
[..]


Technically with that rule one could create a grade 4 initiate, when used in conjunction with buying additional spell points up to a combined total of 50 coming from bought ones (25k back then) and the ones you automatically got depending on magician type.
The only magician type that could seriously use that however, was the conjurer aspected magician, preferably with a shamanistic tradition ... but then with "Force": Centering, Invoking, Channeling and Masking from start.
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (RelentlessImp @ Jul 19 2013, 06:41 PM) *
On the developers for not outlining what can and cannot be done; for not thinking of a different name for Step 7 than 'Karma', or making it look in any way different from post-chargen-earned karma. It's the same thing, especially given that you can carry over up to 7 points of it post-chargen.


'The Developers' is not a valid choice.

The valid choice is that the burden of proof resides on allowing initiation, or not allowing initiation.

'The Developers' are a party responsible for providing proof, not one of the two disputed interpretation.

QUOTE (Cochise @ Jul 19 2013, 06:43 PM) *
Yes ... p. 15, Shadowrun Companion (3rd Ed)

Resources:
[..]
In addition to the standard uses for Spell Points during character generation, gamemasters may allow player characters to use Spell Points in place of Karma Points in order to begin the game as an initiate, to summon and maintain ally spirits and so on.
[..]


Technically with that rule one could create a grade 4 initiate, when used in conjunction with buying additional spell points up to a combined total of 50 coming from bought ones (25k back then) and the ones you automatically got depending on magician type.
The only magician type that could seriously use that however, was the conjurer aspected magician, preferably with a shamanistic tradition ... but then with "Force": Centering, Invoking, Channeling and Masking from start.


Good catch. So, it sounds like it may be allowed at GM discretion with an optional rule set.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Shemhazai
Does Initiation cost the same Karma as before? Then you could initiate three times and use metatype points to push Magic to 9. That would save lots of Karma.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Jul 19 2013, 03:18 PM) *
Does Initiation cost the same Karma as before? Then you could initiate three times and use metatype points to push Magic to 9. That would save lots of Karma.

This is probably why the devs didn't specifically mention initiation in chargen, hoping you wouldn't do that, but ultimately it's to the GM's discretion nyahnyah.gif

But that also means sucking up 48 ([cost 10 + (grade x 3)] so 13,16,19)karma so basically using all of the initial 25 plus 23 pts of negatives and not leaving much for anything else.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Jul 19 2013, 01:18 PM) *
Does Initiation cost the same Karma as before? Then you could initiate three times and use metatype points to push Magic to 9. That would save lots of Karma.


At 13 +16 + 19 (48 Total Karma), How are you initiating 3 Times?

EDIT: Ninja'd by Sendaz...
Grinder
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 19 2013, 08:29 PM) *
Has it ever been allowed in previous editions?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS


Seeing how much SR5 differs from previous editions in its treatment of magic users and the filthy rest: who cares what has been allowed in previous editions? nyahnyah.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Grinder @ Jul 19 2013, 01:50 PM) *
Seeing how much SR5 differs from previous editions in its treatment of magic users and the filthy rest: who cares what has been allowed in previous editions? nyahnyah.gif


The Filthy Rest? wobble.gif
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE
But that also means sucking up 48 ([cost 10 + (grade x 3)] so 13,16,19)karma so basically using all of the initial 25 plus 23 pts of negatives and not leaving much for anything else.


If allowed, it would probably be completely worth it, particularly if Metahuman Special Attributes are allowed to increase magic.

Raising Magic from 6 --> 9 costs: 35 + 40 + 45 karma = 120 karma. Raising Edge from 1 to 4 would cost 10 + 15 + 20 karma. 45 Karma. Dumping Edge to boost Magic to 9 has net gain of 75 Karma.

That would probably be among the simplest, most straightforward 'optimized' choices you could make as an Awakened Character. The only excuse for not doing it would be not knowing it was an option.

QUOTE ( @ Jul 19 2013, 09:50 PM) *
Seeing how much SR5 differs from previous editions in its treatment of magic users and the filthy rest: who cares what has been allowed in previous editions? nyahnyah.gif


I hadn't noticed that SR 5 treats Magic Users as fundamentally different than it had previous editions?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Grinder
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 19 2013, 10:56 PM) *
The Filthy Rest? wobble.gif


You know... mundanes. wink.gif
Grinder
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 19 2013, 10:57 PM) *
I hadn't noticed that SR 5 treats Magic Users as fundamentally different than it had previous editions?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS


It nerfed the street sams while at the same time magic users didn't get nerfed nearly at the same level.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Grinder @ Jul 19 2013, 01:58 PM) *
You know... mundanes. wink.gif


Yep... Got it... All the rest of us... frown.gif
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Grinder @ Jul 19 2013, 08:59 PM) *
It nerfed the street sams while at the same time magic users didn't get nerfed nearly at the same level.


Right. But that's not a fundamental change. wink.gif

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Shemhazai
Even better, use Exceptional Attribute (Magic) and initiate twice. Start with 9 Magic and 7 Karma left over. Is there any way to squeeze out another point of Magic at chargen?
The Masked Ferret
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Jul 19 2013, 05:17 PM) *
Even better, use Exceptional Attribute (Magic) and initiate twice. Start with 9 Magic and 7 Karma left over. Is there any way to squeeze out another point of Magic at chargen?


Initiate 3 times for 48 Karma?
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Jul 19 2013, 09:17 PM) *
Even better, use Exceptional Attribute (Magic) and initiate twice. Start with 9 Magic and 7 Karma left over. Is there any way to squeeze out another point of Magic at chargen?


Heheh. Oh boy. Well, I may not have been the best one to weigh in on this thread anyway.

There is a 0% chance that a (Non-Aspected) Awakened Characters will begin with a Magic Attribute above '6' in any game I run.

Can it be raised as the game goes on? Absolutely, without question. That's an essential and cherished part of character advancement, and initiation is the Holy Grail of Karma expenditures. And I'll leave the door wide open for it.

Can it be munchkin'd out in Chargen? Hell no. ;b

Also, if you can initiate in Chargen, why would you even bother w/ Exceptional Attribute: Magic? It's more expensive, with less perks. nyahnyah.gif

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
The Masked Ferret
QUOTE (The Masked Ferret @ Jul 19 2013, 04:22 PM) *
Initiate 3 times for 48 Karma?


Magic @ 6
Initiate 3 times (48 Karma)
Exceptional Attribute: Magic (14 Karma)
Have a race with Special Attribute bonuses of at least 4 (spent on Magic)
Choose a PP every time you Initiate.

So, that would make it possible for an Adept to have 12pp at Chargen, right?
Shemhazai
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 19 2013, 05:23 PM) *
Also, if you can initiate in Chargen, why would you even bother w/ Exceptional Attribute: Magic? It's more expensive, with less perks.

The third initiation costs 19, but the Exceptional attribute costs 14. To get the Magic, both methods require a metatype point. You can spend the 19 Karma after chargen to get the metamagic. This way, you can spend the 7 Karma on a positive quality, not get a negative quality, or save it for later. Maybe spend 3 points of it to have a Rating 3 Power Focus...
Shemhazai
QUOTE (The Masked Ferret @ Jul 19 2013, 05:31 PM) *
Magic @ 6
Initiate 3 times (48 Karma)
Exceptional Attribute: Magic (14 Karma)
Have a race with Special Attribute bonuses of at least 4 (spent on Magic)
Choose a PP every time you Initiate.

So, that would make it possible for an Adept to have 12pp at Chargen, right?

You can't spend 62 Karma at chargen.
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Jul 19 2013, 10:31 PM) *
The third initiation costs 19, but the Exceptional attribute costs 14. To get the Magic, both methods require a metatype point. You can spend the 19 Karma after chargen to get the metamagic. This way, you can spend the 7 Karma on a positive quality, not get a negative quality, or save it for later. Maybe spend 3 points of it to have a Rating 3 Power Focus...


Right, right, I'm tracking you. Yep. Pretty ridiculous. smile.gif

I'm sure there's an Awakened Archetype player here that will arrive shortly and explain why this isn't a problem. wink.gif

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Sendaz
nm... getting headache
tsuyoshikentsu
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 19 2013, 01:59 PM) *
I'm sure there's an Awakened Archetype player here that will arrive shortly and explain why this isn't a problem. wink.gif

That'd be me, and I think you all are misreading the rules a bit. But not the initiation rules--the creation rules themselves.

It's my belief that you have to do chargen in order. In other words, improving your CHA in step 7 doesn't get you more free contact points, improving your LOG doesn't get you more knowledge skills, and initiating doesn't let you go back and reallocate your special attribute points. So while you can increase your initiate grade, there's actually no way to increase your MAG higher than 7 (via Exceptional Attribute) at chargen.

So why initiate at chargen, then? Metamagic, duh.

I think, at the costs listed, it's pretty balanced to allow Awakened to get one point of magic and two metamagics or three metamagics at chargen. That strikes a happy balance between the insanity you all are describing and not allowing initiation at all, which is stupid.
Roy Fokker
Unless there is something I missed, you spend your special attribute bonus points and choose your magic at steps 2 and 3 whereas you buy initiation grades at step 7. My reading of the purposeful numbering of the steps is that you can't assign magic at step 2/3 into something that doesn't exist until step 7. I agree that you can take initiation grades and raise your maximum rating but your bonus special attribute points from racial priority are LONG GONE by the time you acquire those grades. It would be like buying specializations using skill points several steps ahead of acquiring the actual skill via karma at the end of chargen.
Jaid
starting off with 3 initiate grades at chargen would be worth it anyways. honestly, let's face it, what's the first thing the average mage is going to want to start putting karma towards anyways? masking, centering, and probably quickening for the third (note: pressing through wards works a *lot* better in 5th edition than it did in 4th, since even a non-initiate can potentially bring several things through, so quickening is much much more useful than previously).
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ Jul 19 2013, 11:31 PM) *
I think, at the costs listed, it's pretty balanced to allow Awakened to get one point of magic and two metamagics or three metamagics at chargen. That strikes a happy balance between the insanity you all are describing and not allowing initiation at all, which is stupid.


It is thick irony to use the word 'balanced' while discussing ways to make Awakened Characters better in Chargen than they already are.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Sendaz
It's also thin copperly too.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 19 2013, 05:43 PM) *
It's also thin copperly too.


Thin Copperly? Oh wait.... got it. wobble.gif
Neurosis
No.
Seerow
QUOTE (Roy Fokker @ Jul 19 2013, 10:35 PM) *
Unless there is something I missed, you spend your special attribute bonus points and choose your magic at steps 2 and 3 whereas you buy initiation grades at step 7. My reading of the purposeful numbering of the steps is that you can't assign magic at step 2/3 into something that doesn't exist until step 7. I agree that you can take initiation grades and raise your maximum rating but your bonus special attribute points from racial priority are LONG GONE by the time you acquire those grades. It would be like buying specializations using skill points several steps ahead of acquiring the actual skill via karma at the end of chargen.


Actually examples in the book contradict this interpretation.

In the character gen preview, the street sam character being built took Exceptional Attribute Strength (which has to be bought with Karma, normally step 7), way back at the beginning so he could put his attribute point into Strength and take advantage of that.

So the order apparently is not set in stone, and there is clear developer intention precedent for spending karma and then using attribute points to take advantage of that spent karma.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 19 2013, 06:44 PM) *
Thin Copperly? Oh wait.... got it. wobble.gif

ugh, must have been tired.. it was supposed to be thin coppery, but you got it anyway. nyahnyah.gif
RelentlessImp
QUOTE (Seerow @ Jul 20 2013, 12:31 AM) *
Actually examples in the book contradict this interpretation.

In the character gen preview, the street sam character being built took Exceptional Attribute Strength (which has to be bought with Karma, normally step 7), way back at the beginning so he could put his attribute point into Strength and take advantage of that.

So the order apparently is not set in stone, and there is clear developer intention precedent for spending karma and then using attribute points to take advantage of that spent karma.


Something you're overlooking is he had to get explicit GM permission to do that.
Seerow
QUOTE (RelentlessImp @ Jul 20 2013, 03:25 PM) *
Something you're overlooking is he had to get explicit GM permission to do that.


That was to take Exceptional Attribute at all (which explicitly specifies it requires GM consent), not to be able to spend the attribute points.

Since there's no similar ruling for initiation, by default it's allowed. Yes it's dumb. Yes, 9 magic starting characters are ridiculous. But that's the way it works.



Funny thought: Maybe that's why they thought Mystic Adepts were balanced at 2 karma per pp. It forces Mystic Adepts to start with a lower magic than a full mage. (initiate twice that's 29 karma. Now you need 16 karma to max out your pp, taking you to 45. To start with a 9 magic Mystic Adept you need 66 karma)
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Seerow @ Jul 20 2013, 05:21 PM) *
Since there's no similar ruling for initiation, by default it's allowed. Yes it's dumb. Yes, 9 magic starting characters are ridiculous. But that's the way it works.


I would probably be move inclined to say that because there is not explicit allowance for initiation, by default it is not allowed. Which is built on precedent from numerous editions, in addition to it being an obviously attractive option for Awakened Characters that would have been spelled out, if allowing it was the intent of the game designers.

I mean, what's pretty much the first question an Awakened Character asks themselves whenever they gain karma: "Do I have enough to initiate?" nyahnyah.gif

It's not like the Game Designers didn't realize that initiation is among the most sought after karma expenditures in the game, and decided to be ambiguous about it, so they could silently and secretly endorse it.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Seerow @ Jul 20 2013, 09:21 AM) *
Funny thought: Maybe that's why they thought Mystic Adepts were balanced at 2 karma per pp. It forces Mystic Adepts to start with a lower magic than a full mage. (initiate twice that's 29 karma. Now you need 16 karma to max out your pp, taking you to 45. To start with a 9 magic Mystic Adept you need 66 karma)


SO you go with an 8 Magic Mystic Adept instead, or maybe even 7. Problem is that the Mystic Adept Gets FULL access to his Magic Score for both Spells and Adept abilities (assuming he buys all the PP's available), which up till now, MUST be split. So, in effect, that Mystic Adept has the equivalent of Magic 14 or 16, instead of your Mages Magic 9. And that is the issue. smile.gif

I can guarantee you that a Mystic Adept with Magic 6, and 6 PP worth of Adept Abilities, is an amazing character. Add on to that possible Initiation, and... Just Wow. wobble.gif
EternalZiggurat
My only question, if rules exist to lower the cost of initiation like they did in sr4, can you make the tests and initiate for less at gen?
Jaid
QUOTE (EternalZiggurat @ Jul 20 2013, 07:11 PM) *
My only question, if rules exist to lower the cost of initiation like they did in sr4, can you make the tests and initiate for less at gen?


i would say no, for the same reason you cannot get all your gear at half price by taking a couple of B/R skills.
Cochise
QUOTE (EternalZiggurat @ Jul 21 2013, 01:11 AM) *
My only question, if rules exist to lower the cost of initiation like they did in sr4, can you make the tests and initiate for less at gen?


That would be gamemaster's call without going against "RAW"... just as initiation itself, unless someone can provide a rule that explicitly or at least by implication prohibits something like that.
Ustio
In terms of the when can you spend Karma (though it still doesn't answer can you spend Karma on initiation), p.98 has this:
QUOTE
Any remaining Karma can now be invested in smoothing out any roughedges,

This indicates (along with the examples) that you can spend Karma at any stage of the creation process.

Another point to consider is that you receive any special Attribute Points before selecting magic/resonance so you can technically put points into your Magic/Resonance before you have them.

On a completely unrelated note - something interesting about TMs - essence lost in character creation only affects the maximum resonance (p.250) unfortunately for the magic types I couldn't find a similar note for them.
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Ustio @ Jul 21 2013, 11:50 PM) *
On a completely unrelated note - something interesting about TMs - essence lost in character creation only affects the maximum resonance (p.250) unfortunately for the magic types I couldn't find a similar note for them.
Huh...wonder if that's intentional

"Whenever you lose Essence (after character generation), you lose an equal amount of Resonance, rounded up."
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012