Can you take an initiation grade at chargen? Options

[The Masked Ferre...]

Even better, use Exceptional Attribute (Magic) and initiate twice. Start with 9 Magic and 7 Karma left over. Is there any way to squeeze out another point of Magic at chargen?

Initiate 3 times for 48 Karma?

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Even better, use Exceptional Attribute (Magic) and initiate twice. Start with 9 Magic and 7 Karma left over. Is there any way to squeeze out another point of Magic at chargen?

Heheh. Oh boy. Well, I may not have been the best one to weigh in on this thread anyway.

There is a 0% chance that a (Non-Aspected) Awakened Characters will begin with a Magic Attribute above '6' in any game I run.

Can it be raised as the game goes on? Absolutely, without question. That's an essential and cherished part of character advancement, and initiation is the Holy Grail of Karma expenditures. And I'll leave the door wide open for it.

Can it be munchkin'd out in Chargen? Hell no. ;b

Also, if you can initiate in Chargen, why would you even bother w/ Exceptional Attribute: Magic? It's more expensive, with less perks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[The Masked Ferre...]

Initiate 3 times for 48 Karma?

Magic @ 6
Initiate 3 times (48 Karma)
Exceptional Attribute: Magic (14 Karma)
Have a race with Special Attribute bonuses of at least 4 (spent on Magic)
Choose a PP every time you Initiate.

So, that would make it possible for an Adept to have 12pp at Chargen, right?

[Shemhazai]

Also, if you can initiate in Chargen, why would you even bother w/ Exceptional Attribute: Magic? It's more expensive, with less perks.

The third initiation costs 19, but the Exceptional attribute costs 14. To get the Magic, both methods require a metatype point. You can spend the 19 Karma after chargen to get the metamagic. This way, you can spend the 7 Karma on a positive quality, not get a negative quality, or save it for later. Maybe spend 3 points of it to have a Rating 3 Power Focus...

[Shemhazai]

Magic @ 6
Initiate 3 times (48 Karma)
Exceptional Attribute: Magic (14 Karma)
Have a race with Special Attribute bonuses of at least 4 (spent on Magic)
Choose a PP every time you Initiate.

So, that would make it possible for an Adept to have 12pp at Chargen, right?

You can't spend 62 Karma at chargen.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

The third initiation costs 19, but the Exceptional attribute costs 14. To get the Magic, both methods require a metatype point. You can spend the 19 Karma after chargen to get the metamagic. This way, you can spend the 7 Karma on a positive quality, not get a negative quality, or save it for later. Maybe spend 3 points of it to have a Rating 3 Power Focus...

Right, right, I'm tracking you. Yep. Pretty ridiculous. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm sure there's an Awakened Archetype player here that will arrive shortly and explain why this isn't a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Sendaz]

nm... getting headache

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I'm sure there's an Awakened Archetype player here that will arrive shortly and explain why this isn't a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That'd be me, and I think you all are misreading the rules a bit. But not the initiation rules--the creation rules themselves.

It's my belief that you have to do chargen in order. In other words, improving your CHA in step 7 doesn't get you more free contact points, improving your LOG doesn't get you more knowledge skills, and initiating doesn't let you go back and reallocate your special attribute points. So while you can increase your initiate grade, there's actually no way to increase your MAG higher than 7 (via Exceptional Attribute) at chargen.

So why initiate at chargen, then? Metamagic, duh.

I think, at the costs listed, it's pretty balanced to allow Awakened to get one point of magic and two metamagics or three metamagics at chargen. That strikes a happy balance between the insanity you all are describing and not allowing initiation at all, which is stupid.

[Roy Fokker]

Unless there is something I missed, you spend your special attribute bonus points and choose your magic at steps 2 and 3 whereas you buy initiation grades at step 7. My reading of the purposeful numbering of the steps is that you can't assign magic at step 2/3 into something that doesn't exist until step 7. I agree that you can take initiation grades and raise your maximum rating but your bonus special attribute points from racial priority are LONG GONE by the time you acquire those grades. It would be like buying specializations using skill points several steps ahead of acquiring the actual skill via karma at the end of chargen.

[Jaid]

starting off with 3 initiate grades at chargen would be worth it anyways. honestly, let's face it, what's the first thing the average mage is going to want to start putting karma towards anyways? masking, centering, and probably quickening for the third (note: pressing through wards works a *lot* better in 5th edition than it did in 4th, since even a non-initiate can potentially bring several things through, so quickening is much much more useful than previously).

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

I think, at the costs listed, it's pretty balanced to allow Awakened to get one point of magic and two metamagics or three metamagics at chargen. That strikes a happy balance between the insanity you all are describing and not allowing initiation at all, which is stupid.

It is thick irony to use the word 'balanced' while discussing ways to make Awakened Characters better in Chargen than they already are.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Sendaz]

It's also thin copperly too.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's also thin copperly too.

Thin Copperly? Oh wait.... got it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Neurosis]

No.

[Seerow]

Unless there is something I missed, you spend your special attribute bonus points and choose your magic at steps 2 and 3 whereas you buy initiation grades at step 7. My reading of the purposeful numbering of the steps is that you can't assign magic at step 2/3 into something that doesn't exist until step 7. I agree that you can take initiation grades and raise your maximum rating but your bonus special attribute points from racial priority are LONG GONE by the time you acquire those grades. It would be like buying specializations using skill points several steps ahead of acquiring the actual skill via karma at the end of chargen.

Actually examples in the book contradict this interpretation.

In the character gen preview, the street sam character being built took Exceptional Attribute Strength (which has to be bought with Karma, normally step 7), way back at the beginning so he could put his attribute point into Strength and take advantage of that.

So the order apparently is not set in stone, and there is clear developer intention precedent for spending karma and then using attribute points to take advantage of that spent karma.

[Sendaz]

Thin Copperly? Oh wait.... got it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

ugh, must have been tired.. it was supposed to be thin coppery, but you got it anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[RelentlessImp]

Actually examples in the book contradict this interpretation.

In the character gen preview, the street sam character being built took Exceptional Attribute Strength (which has to be bought with Karma, normally step 7), way back at the beginning so he could put his attribute point into Strength and take advantage of that.

So the order apparently is not set in stone, and there is clear developer intention precedent for spending karma and then using attribute points to take advantage of that spent karma.

Something you're overlooking is he had to get explicit GM permission to do that.

[Seerow]

Something you're overlooking is he had to get explicit GM permission to do that.

That was to take Exceptional Attribute at all (which explicitly specifies it requires GM consent), not to be able to spend the attribute points.

Since there's no similar ruling for initiation, by default it's allowed. Yes it's dumb. Yes, 9 magic starting characters are ridiculous. But that's the way it works.



Funny thought: Maybe that's why they thought Mystic Adepts were balanced at 2 karma per pp. It forces Mystic Adepts to start with a lower magic than a full mage. (initiate twice that's 29 karma. Now you need 16 karma to max out your pp, taking you to 45. To start with a 9 magic Mystic Adept you need 66 karma)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Since there's no similar ruling for initiation, by default it's allowed. Yes it's dumb. Yes, 9 magic starting characters are ridiculous. But that's the way it works.

I would probably be move inclined to say that because there is not explicit allowance for initiation, by default it is not allowed. Which is built on precedent from numerous editions, in addition to it being an obviously attractive option for Awakened Characters that would have been spelled out, if allowing it was the intent of the game designers.

I mean, what's pretty much the first question an Awakened Character asks themselves whenever they gain karma: "Do I have enough to initiate?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

It's not like the Game Designers didn't realize that initiation is among the most sought after karma expenditures in the game, and decided to be ambiguous about it, so they could silently and secretly endorse it.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Funny thought: Maybe that's why they thought Mystic Adepts were balanced at 2 karma per pp. It forces Mystic Adepts to start with a lower magic than a full mage. (initiate twice that's 29 karma. Now you need 16 karma to max out your pp, taking you to 45. To start with a 9 magic Mystic Adept you need 66 karma)

SO you go with an 8 Magic Mystic Adept instead, or maybe even 7. Problem is that the Mystic Adept Gets FULL access to his Magic Score for both Spells and Adept abilities (assuming he buys all the PP's available), which up till now, MUST be split. So, in effect, that Mystic Adept has the equivalent of Magic 14 or 16, instead of your Mages Magic 9. And that is the issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I can guarantee you that a Mystic Adept with Magic 6, and 6 PP worth of Adept Abilities, is an amazing character. Add on to that possible Initiation, and... Just Wow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[EternalZiggurat]

My only question, if rules exist to lower the cost of initiation like they did in sr4, can you make the tests and initiate for less at gen?

[Jaid]

My only question, if rules exist to lower the cost of initiation like they did in sr4, can you make the tests and initiate for less at gen?

i would say no, for the same reason you cannot get all your gear at half price by taking a couple of B/R skills.

[Cochise]

My only question, if rules exist to lower the cost of initiation like they did in sr4, can you make the tests and initiate for less at gen?

That would be gamemaster's call without going against "RAW"... just as initiation itself, unless someone can provide a rule that explicitly or at least by implication prohibits something like that.

[Ustio]

In terms of the when can you spend Karma (though it still doesn't answer can you spend Karma on initiation), p.98 has this:

Any remaining Karma can now be invested in smoothing out any roughedges,

This indicates (along with the examples) that you can spend Karma at any stage of the creation process.

Another point to consider is that you receive any special Attribute Points before selecting magic/resonance so you can technically put points into your Magic/Resonance before you have them.

On a completely unrelated note - something interesting about TMs - essence lost in character creation only affects the maximum resonance (p.250) unfortunately for the magic types I couldn't find a similar note for them.

[phlapjack77]

On a completely unrelated note - something interesting about TMs - essence lost in character creation only affects the maximum resonance (p.250) unfortunately for the magic types I couldn't find a similar note for them.

Huh...wonder if that's intentional

"Whenever you lose Essence (after character generation), you lose an equal amount of Resonance, rounded up."