Fake SIN - Why would you take it?, Since they automatically fail per the Rules on Forgeries. Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, here is one for you...

Data-based forgeries, like credsticks, documents, and SINs, don’t really hold up well to scrutiny, what with information being so readily available. They can appear almost identical to the original, but any attempt to get it to act like the original (transfer nuyen, pass a SIN check, etc.) reveals the forgery.

Now, The Skill - Forgery allows one to take a Specialty in Fake ID's. However, per the above rules quote, Fake ID"s fail outright the instant they are used to try and pass an ID Scan. Kind of makes the Fake SIN worthless, I imagine. At least according to the Rules, anyway.

What say you, Dumpshock?

[Dancer]

There are specific rules given for SIN checks. The checking device rolls (rating x 2) against a threshold of the fake SIN's rating.

That assumes a full fake SIN which involves inserting data into a bunch of remote databases (or falsely using legitimate data). If you just forge a SIN by creating a file/document that looks like a SIN, the moment someone actually runs a check on it it'll come back 'no match'.

[Makki]

Now, The Skill - Forgery allows one to take a Specialty in Fake ID's. However, per the above rules quote, Fake ID"s fail outright the instant they are used to try and pass an ID Scan. Kind of makes the Fake SIN worthless, I imagine. At least according to the Rules, anyway.

What say you, Dumpshock?

I say your quote reads more like fluff than hard ruling. Real SIN check rules are are in the book after all.
If anything, your quote refers to PC-created data-based forgeries using the Forgery skill, but in no way to Fake SINs bought in the gear chapter. Maybe they wanted to prevent players making their own fake SINs...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I say your quote reads more like fluff than hard ruling. Real SIN check rules are are in the book after all.
If anything, your quote refers to PC-created data-based forgeries using the Forgery skill, but in no way to Fake SINs bought in the gear chapter. Maybe they wanted to prevent players making their own fake SINs...

I understand that, but it is wonky.
I think (much like you do) that they want to keep PC"s from making Fake SIN's (and Licenses), honestly, but went about it in a very poor manner. Especially since Fake SIN's and Licenses are really nothing more than Forgeries to begin with. They could avoid such things by just not commenting upon them in the Skill section at all. Ahh well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

But making fake SINs, especially for TMs and Deckers, should be a viable way to help keep your team safe.

[Sendaz]

I understand that, but it is wonky.
I think (much like you do) that they want to keep PC"s from making Fake SIN's (and Licenses), honestly, but went about it in a very poor manner. Especially since Fake SIN's and Licenses are really nothing more than Forgeries to begin with. They could avoid such things by just not commenting upon them in the Skill section at all. Ahh well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

But a proper fake identify in any age is more than just a single forgery, it is laying the fake trail behind it as well and its the sort of access that most players simply wouldn't have and could not be covered by a general roll.

Now if you wanted to make a mission of creating that sort of trail where you and your crew went on to raid a few agencies online as well as infiltrating some backup facilities.....

[phlapjack77]

So, here is one for you...



Now, The Skill - Forgery allows one to take a Specialty in Fake ID's. However, per the above rules quote, Fake ID"s fail outright the instant they are used to try and pass an ID Scan. Kind of makes the Fake SIN worthless, I imagine. At least according to the Rules, anyway.

What say you, Dumpshock?

I think this is a huge area that the devs have let us down big time. This should be a huge staple of SR, the cyberpunk dystopian future of who you are according to who the computer says you are - goddamit, Gattica was THE sci-fi movie about stuff like this, and fake IDs were a large part of the plot.

We need better / more involved / better defined rules on fake ids and checkpoints and the like.

[Sengir]

What say you, Dumpshock?

I'd say read the chapter on fake SINs, which is really nice because it spells out what data different SIN levels hold and what gets checked by verification systems: Rating 1+2 SINs are really just the number (-> "appear almost identical to the original"), and rating 1+2 verifiers just check if the number has the right format. Anything higher would be "attempt to get it to act like the original", because the verifiers check the global registry for data that would be associated with a legitimate number.

I'd also say you should head over to the errata thread and suggest changing the text to something like "any attempt to get it to act like the original (transfer nuyen, pass a higher-rated (3+) SIN check, etc.) reveals the forgery." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But making fake SINs, especially for TMs and Deckers, should be a viable way to help keep your team safe.

Indeed... See my dilemma? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'd say read the chapter on fake SINs, which is really nice because it spells out what data different SIN levels hold and what gets checked by verification systems: Rating 1+2 SINs are really just the number (-> "appear almost identical to the original"), and rating 1+2 verifiers just check if the number has the right format. Anything higher would be "attempt to get it to act like the original", because the verifiers check the global registry for data that would be associated with a legitimate number.

I'd also say you should head over to the errata thread and suggest changing the text to something like "any attempt to get it to act like the original (transfer nuyen, pass a higher-rated (3+) SIN check, etc.) reveals the forgery." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Thanks Sengir... I saw the actual Rules for Fake SIns, I just think the discrepency is pretty awful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Of course, the rules for such things have been horrible(terrible, horrendous, some other descriptor?) in one way or another for several editions, now.

[X-Kalibur]

Thanks Sengir... I saw the actual Rules for Fake SIns, I just think the discrepency is pretty awful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Of course, the rules for such things have been horrible(terrible, horrendous, some other descriptor?) in one way or another for several editions, now.

You mean like the stuffer shack having a chance of blowing your fake SIN? (SR4)

[Sendaz]

But making fake SINs, especially for TMs and Deckers, should be a viable way to help keep your team safe.

In this case, couldn't the Tm or Decker potentially hack the detection devices to allow a pass?

I mean you know your about to go through a checkpoint up ahead so you have the Decker/TM hack the equipment itself, it's online if it is checking the global network, so it's accessible.

Once they take control they can fudge whatever readout comes from the check when their team passes through or just create a temp fake file that the reader 'thinks' is the response from global.

Sort of like A comes through the scanner, checks global and taps A's File. If pass A goes through.

TM inserts a File into the system's cache for B that passes muster and a command that if B comes through refer to this file. B goes through the check and system is about to query global but defaults to the recent command and accepts the file as a pass and B is let through.

Honestly do not know if the rules would support this and I have not done hacking side in ages, so no clue if this is even valid.

[Blade]

The forgeries in that text might be the physical part. IIRC, the Forgery skill in SR4 was supposed to be used for making physical forgeries, everything else was done in the Matrix.

In that context, it would mean that you can create something that looks like an ID card, but it won't pass any check since it's not linked to any Matrix data. It might work in countries where paper documents are used and where Matrix coverage isn't very good.

[Sengir]

Of course, the rules for such things have been horrible(terrible, horrendous, some other descriptor?) in one way or another for several editions, now.

I think the new SIN rules are really nice, it's just that the forgery rules apparently are not entirely in sync (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think the new SIN rules are really nice, it's just that the forgery rules apparently are not entirely in sync (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I can get on board with that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[phlapjack77]

I think the new SIN rules are really nice, it's just that the forgery rules apparently are not entirely in sync (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Are you talking about the SIN Qualities, or are you talking about other areas of the rules I should look at? Because if you mean SIN Qualities - these were a good first step, yet (imo) not far enough into detail-land for a dystopian cyberpunk future.

[Samoth]

The only gripe I have with Fake SINs as written is that a level 1 fake will be defeated 1/3 of the time (2d6) on the very lowest possible scanner, and most scanners a runner will come across will have at least double that. I guess that's the point of the cheapness of level 1, but the cost is way too high for what you get.

[Slide]

In the books shadowrunners go through fake SINs like they are candy.

[X-Kalibur]

Well, that's usually for doing high end runs with lots of travel.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In the books shadowrunners go through fake SINs like they are candy.

Indeed, assuming they were easily available and somewhat cheap. But when they cost more than your Payout, that is a problem.

[Sengir]

Are you talking about the SIN Qualities, or are you talking about other areas of the rules I should look at?

I'm primarily talking about the SIN rules on p. 366 ff. The SIN qualities are a bit hit-and-miss, because the idea that a former wageslave still pays taxes to his old employer is _slightly_ dumb...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm primarily talking about the SIN rules on p. 366 ff. The SIN qualities are a bit hit-and-miss, because the idea that a former wageslave still pays taxes to his old employer is _slightly_ dumb...

Only Slightly?

[phlapjack77]

I'm primarily talking about the SIN rules on p. 366 ff. The SIN qualities are a bit hit-and-miss, because the idea that a former wageslave still pays taxes to his old employer is _slightly_ dumb...

Ok cool. That part of the qualities has me wonder what shadowrunner would claim wages against his SIN, thus incurring taxes. They can only tax what they know about

[Remnar]

The one who has a legit side job in addition to his illicit shadowruns? That's all I can think of.

[Sendaz]

Just do NOT get those two sides mixed up.......


Please explain, Mr. Jones, how grenades and .50 cal ammo are a valid operating expense for your floral shop?

*note: this one WAS a legitimate business expense for our Barren's Boutique and had filed the appropriate forms for this, but still had to verbally confirm this with the auditor. But yeah, for other jobs.....*