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Tymeaus Jalynsfein
So, here is one for you...

QUOTE (SR5, Forgeries)
Data-based forgeries, like credsticks, documents, and SINs, donít really hold up well to scrutiny, what with information being so readily available. They can appear almost identical to the original, but any attempt to get it to act like the original (transfer nuyen, pass a SIN check, etc.) reveals the forgery.


Now, The Skill - Forgery allows one to take a Specialty in Fake ID's. However, per the above rules quote, Fake ID"s fail outright the instant they are used to try and pass an ID Scan. Kind of makes the Fake SIN worthless, I imagine. At least according to the Rules, anyway.

What say you, Dumpshock?
Dancer
There are specific rules given for SIN checks. The checking device rolls (rating x 2) against a threshold of the fake SIN's rating.

That assumes a full fake SIN which involves inserting data into a bunch of remote databases (or falsely using legitimate data). If you just forge a SIN by creating a file/document that looks like a SIN, the moment someone actually runs a check on it it'll come back 'no match'.
Makki
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 19 2013, 05:55 PM) *
Now, The Skill - Forgery allows one to take a Specialty in Fake ID's. However, per the above rules quote, Fake ID"s fail outright the instant they are used to try and pass an ID Scan. Kind of makes the Fake SIN worthless, I imagine. At least according to the Rules, anyway.

What say you, Dumpshock?


I say your quote reads more like fluff than hard ruling. Real SIN check rules are are in the book after all.
If anything, your quote refers to PC-created data-based forgeries using the Forgery skill, but in no way to Fake SINs bought in the gear chapter. Maybe they wanted to prevent players making their own fake SINs...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Makki @ Jul 19 2013, 09:03 AM) *
I say your quote reads more like fluff than hard ruling. Real SIN check rules are are in the book after all.
If anything, your quote refers to PC-created data-based forgeries using the Forgery skill, but in no way to Fake SINs bought in the gear chapter. Maybe they wanted to prevent players making their own fake SINs...


I understand that, but it is wonky.
I think (much like you do) that they want to keep PC"s from making Fake SIN's (and Licenses), honestly, but went about it in a very poor manner. Especially since Fake SIN's and Licenses are really nothing more than Forgeries to begin with. They could avoid such things by just not commenting upon them in the Skill section at all. Ahh well... wobble.gif
X-Kalibur
But making fake SINs, especially for TMs and Deckers, should be a viable way to help keep your team safe.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 19 2013, 12:39 PM) *
I understand that, but it is wonky.
I think (much like you do) that they want to keep PC"s from making Fake SIN's (and Licenses), honestly, but went about it in a very poor manner. Especially since Fake SIN's and Licenses are really nothing more than Forgeries to begin with. They could avoid such things by just not commenting upon them in the Skill section at all. Ahh well... wobble.gif

But a proper fake identify in any age is more than just a single forgery, it is laying the fake trail behind it as well and its the sort of access that most players simply wouldn't have and could not be covered by a general roll.

Now if you wanted to make a mission of creating that sort of trail where you and your crew went on to raid a few agencies online as well as infiltrating some backup facilities.....
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 19 2013, 11:55 PM) *
So, here is one for you...



Now, The Skill - Forgery allows one to take a Specialty in Fake ID's. However, per the above rules quote, Fake ID"s fail outright the instant they are used to try and pass an ID Scan. Kind of makes the Fake SIN worthless, I imagine. At least according to the Rules, anyway.

What say you, Dumpshock?
I think this is a huge area that the devs have let us down big time. This should be a huge staple of SR, the cyberpunk dystopian future of who you are according to who the computer says you are - goddamit, Gattica was THE sci-fi movie about stuff like this, and fake IDs were a large part of the plot.

We need better / more involved / better defined rules on fake ids and checkpoints and the like.
Sengir
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 19 2013, 03:55 PM) *
What say you, Dumpshock?

I'd say read the chapter on fake SINs, which is really nice because it spells out what data different SIN levels hold and what gets checked by verification systems: Rating 1+2 SINs are really just the number (-> "appear almost identical to the original"), and rating 1+2 verifiers just check if the number has the right format. Anything higher would be "attempt to get it to act like the original", because the verifiers check the global registry for data that would be associated with a legitimate number.

I'd also say you should head over to the errata thread and suggest changing the text to something like "any attempt to get it to act like the original (transfer nuyen, pass a higher-rated (3+) SIN check, etc.) reveals the forgery." wink.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 19 2013, 09:41 AM) *
But making fake SINs, especially for TMs and Deckers, should be a viable way to help keep your team safe.


Indeed... See my dilemma? smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 19 2013, 09:53 AM) *
I'd say read the chapter on fake SINs, which is really nice because it spells out what data different SIN levels hold and what gets checked by verification systems: Rating 1+2 SINs are really just the number (-> "appear almost identical to the original"), and rating 1+2 verifiers just check if the number has the right format. Anything higher would be "attempt to get it to act like the original", because the verifiers check the global registry for data that would be associated with a legitimate number.

I'd also say you should head over to the errata thread and suggest changing the text to something like "any attempt to get it to act like the original (transfer nuyen, pass a higher-rated (3+) SIN check, etc.) reveals the forgery." wink.gif


Thanks Sengir... I saw the actual Rules for Fake SIns, I just think the discrepency is pretty awful. smile.gif
Of course, the rules for such things have been horrible(terrible, horrendous, some other descriptor?) in one way or another for several editions, now.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 19 2013, 09:58 AM) *
Thanks Sengir... I saw the actual Rules for Fake SIns, I just think the discrepency is pretty awful. smile.gif
Of course, the rules for such things have been horrible(terrible, horrendous, some other descriptor?) in one way or another for several editions, now.


You mean like the stuffer shack having a chance of blowing your fake SIN? (SR4)
Sendaz
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 19 2013, 12:41 PM) *
But making fake SINs, especially for TMs and Deckers, should be a viable way to help keep your team safe.

In this case, couldn't the Tm or Decker potentially hack the detection devices to allow a pass?

I mean you know your about to go through a checkpoint up ahead so you have the Decker/TM hack the equipment itself, it's online if it is checking the global network, so it's accessible.

Once they take control they can fudge whatever readout comes from the check when their team passes through or just create a temp fake file that the reader 'thinks' is the response from global.

Sort of like A comes through the scanner, checks global and taps A's File. If pass A goes through.

TM inserts a File into the system's cache for B that passes muster and a command that if B comes through refer to this file. B goes through the check and system is about to query global but defaults to the recent command and accepts the file as a pass and B is let through.

Honestly do not know if the rules would support this and I have not done hacking side in ages, so no clue if this is even valid.
Blade
The forgeries in that text might be the physical part. IIRC, the Forgery skill in SR4 was supposed to be used for making physical forgeries, everything else was done in the Matrix.

In that context, it would mean that you can create something that looks like an ID card, but it won't pass any check since it's not linked to any Matrix data. It might work in countries where paper documents are used and where Matrix coverage isn't very good.
Sengir
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 19 2013, 04:58 PM) *
Of course, the rules for such things have been horrible(terrible, horrendous, some other descriptor?) in one way or another for several editions, now.

I think the new SIN rules are really nice, it's just that the forgery rules apparently are not entirely in sync wink.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 19 2013, 10:21 AM) *
I think the new SIN rules are really nice, it's just that the forgery rules apparently are not entirely in sync wink.gif


I can get on board with that... smile.gif
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 20 2013, 01:21 AM) *
I think the new SIN rules are really nice, it's just that the forgery rules apparently are not entirely in sync wink.gif
Are you talking about the SIN Qualities, or are you talking about other areas of the rules I should look at? Because if you mean SIN Qualities - these were a good first step, yet (imo) not far enough into detail-land for a dystopian cyberpunk future.
Samoth
The only gripe I have with Fake SINs as written is that a level 1 fake will be defeated 1/3 of the time (2d6) on the very lowest possible scanner, and most scanners a runner will come across will have at least double that. I guess that's the point of the cheapness of level 1, but the cost is way too high for what you get.
Slide
In the books shadowrunners go through fake SINs like they are candy.
X-Kalibur
Well, that's usually for doing high end runs with lots of travel.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Slide @ Jul 19 2013, 10:35 AM) *
In the books shadowrunners go through fake SINs like they are candy.


Indeed, assuming they were easily available and somewhat cheap. But when they cost more than your Payout, that is a problem.
Sengir
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Jul 19 2013, 06:33 PM) *
Are you talking about the SIN Qualities, or are you talking about other areas of the rules I should look at?

I'm primarily talking about the SIN rules on p. 366 ff. The SIN qualities are a bit hit-and-miss, because the idea that a former wageslave still pays taxes to his old employer is _slightly_ dumb...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 19 2013, 10:47 AM) *
I'm primarily talking about the SIN rules on p. 366 ff. The SIN qualities are a bit hit-and-miss, because the idea that a former wageslave still pays taxes to his old employer is _slightly_ dumb...


Only Slightly?
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 20 2013, 01:47 AM) *
I'm primarily talking about the SIN rules on p. 366 ff. The SIN qualities are a bit hit-and-miss, because the idea that a former wageslave still pays taxes to his old employer is _slightly_ dumb...
Ok cool. That part of the qualities has me wonder what shadowrunner would claim wages against his SIN, thus incurring taxes. They can only tax what they know about
Remnar
The one who has a legit side job in addition to his illicit shadowruns? That's all I can think of.
Sendaz
Just do NOT get those two sides mixed up.......


Please explain, Mr. Jones, how grenades and .50 cal ammo are a valid operating expense for your floral shop?

*note: this one WAS a legitimate business expense for our Barren's Boutique and had filed the appropriate forms for this, but still had to verbally confirm this with the auditor. But yeah, for other jobs.....*
Remnar
I recall a fan fic from way back (Shapcano maybe?) about a barrens bound FedEx run. If I recall correctly it was quite excellent. Imagine the tax writeoffs for that.
Sengir
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 19 2013, 06:48 PM) *
Only Slightly?

Maybe the "slightly" was slightly ironic wink.gif
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 19 2013, 01:21 PM) *
I think the new SIN rules are really nice, it's just that the forgery rules apparently are not entirely in sync wink.gif

There is no single skill for making fake SINs.

The forgery rules are specifically for making physical fakes, like the ID card a fake SIN might be attached to..

They do not include the hacking of SIN databases to insert false identity trails. For that, you need to actually hack the database and insert the false information. This is a whole operation and really not something that should be doable with a simple skill roll.

Alternately, pay someone else to do it. Fake SINs are in the gear section.


-k
Finster
QUOTE (Blade @ Jul 19 2013, 01:12 PM) *
The forgeries in that text might be the physical part. IIRC, the Forgery skill in SR4 was supposed to be used for making physical forgeries, everything else was done in the Matrix.

In that context, it would mean that you can create something that looks like an ID card, but it won't pass any check since it's not linked to any Matrix data. It might work in countries where paper documents are used and where Matrix coverage isn't very good.

As GM, I would also add ARO's to that. The way I imagine it is that you used to have to wear a physical ID badge in any secure facility. That is now an ARO tied to your commlink. So, as you walk around the halls of some secure lab, you'll be able to see everyone's "badge" in AR. I would rule that the Forgery skill also covers fabricating a convincing AR replica of said badge. Obviously, since it's a forgery, it won't stand up to any serious database check.

So, what use is it? That's where the team's decker comes in. He or she would have to monitor any possible Corporate SIN challenges in this case, and Spoof a Command to authorize the forged SIN.

This way, the forgery skill still works exactly as advertised, Fake SINs from the gear section still work as advertised (since they include false database entries, etc.), and the decker still has a role to play in helping smooth out the operation of the forged SIN.
Sengir
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jul 19 2013, 08:12 PM) *
There is no single skill for making fake SINs.

The forgery rules are specifically for making physical fakes, like the ID card a fake SIN might be attached to..

They do not include the hacking of SIN databases to insert false identity trails. For that, you need to actually hack the database and insert the false information. This is a whole operation and really not something that should be doable with a simple skill roll.

Totally agreed, and that is essentially what the rules on pages 366 ff say. But the Forgery rules say that ANY check reveals a fake SIN, even if the officer just checks if you can name one and it's not 12345-ABC.
Freya
QUOTE (Finster @ Jul 19 2013, 02:19 PM) *
As GM, I would also add ARO's to that. The way I imagine it is that you used to have to wear a physical ID badge in any secure facility. That is now an ARO tied to your commlink. So, as you walk around the halls of some secure lab, you'll be able to see everyone's "badge" in AR. I would rule that the Forgery skill also covers fabricating a convincing AR replica of said badge. Obviously, since it's a forgery, it won't stand up to any serious database check.

So, what use is it? That's where the team's decker comes in. He or she would have to monitor any possible Corporate SIN challenges in this case, and Spoof a Command to authorize the forged SIN.

This way, the forgery skill still works exactly as advertised, Fake SINs from the gear section still work as advertised (since they include false database entries, etc.), and the decker still has a role to play in helping smooth out the operation of the forged SIN.


I greatly enjoy this idea. Mind if I use it?
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