 All about ally spirits, Unanswered questions |
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 Apr 28 2004, 09:53 PM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046  |
The argument that it can be done because canon doesn't forbid it is not necessarily any more valid than saying it can't be done because canon doesn't specifically allow it. The closest analogy to sense-link appears to be the Eyes of the Pack spell, and that doesn't work for targeting. Similarly, using a remote camera doesn't allow you to target spells. The only variety of remote sensing that does work is fiber-optics, and even those use your own eyes. I also wouldn't want to be a pc in a group where the GM decided this was valid. Insect Queens all have sense link with their minions, as well as with all normal insects of their type. I would hate to have to defend against high-level influence/pestilence/fear/etc powers every time a bug flew in the room. |
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Apr 28 2004, 10:49 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Except that it makes sense that you should be able to do it. If it makes sense, and there's no explicit reason why not...
...and it's still a terrible analogy. Eyes of the pack doesn't allow astral sight, but senselink does. SR3 states that assensing can be used for spell targeting.
Senselink makes the spirit's "eyes" the magician's eyes. The magician has none of his own senses while using the power, it is completely taken over by the spirit's sensorium. He is seeing through the spirit's eyes, just like he would his own.
Well, no one said infiltrating a hive was supposed to be easy. This makes insecticide grenades an even bigger priority. Also, we must ask how good the LOS is from an average normal insect: compound eyes aren't exactly precise. If we impose modifiers to spellcasting because of cover, then a poor LOS link from substandard sensory apparati makes sense too. |
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Apr 28 2004, 10:59 PM
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#28
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
I largely agree with you on the fact that Spells could be cast through a sense link but I'll have to call for a quote on that one. |
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Apr 28 2004, 11:10 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 606 Joined: 17-December 03 Member No.: 5,909 |
I dont think hes talking about infiltrating a hive. Lets say he pisses an ant insect shaman off. Ok so he goes home to his safehouse in the sprawl and gets hit with a freaking fireball while hes sitting on the john because an ant crawled under the door. Or he gets hit while asleep in his bed. That would suck royally and its just giving the GM another way to frag you over. Yea i realize that a so called "good GM" wouldnt do that, But i find that GM's that are way to nice to players can make the game too cheesey. |
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Apr 28 2004, 11:17 PM
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#30
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
The insect shaman could still sneak up on him and fireball him when he's asleep, or a mage could have a fire elemental amterialise and fireball him. Or whoever it was could use ritual sorcery to fry his ass.
On an interesting note: Would an ally materialised as an insect have the senses of an insect, thus very poor eyesight? |
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Apr 28 2004, 11:54 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
SR3, Page 182, second paragraph of the section "Astral Spellcasting." The paragraph directly after that clarifies the concept further. Basically, a dual being, such as an astrally perceiving mage or a materialized spirit, can target anything he/she/it has LOS on in either plane. Assensing is essentially astral observation in detail, so if you can assense something, that means you have astral LOS on it. |
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Apr 29 2004, 12:49 AM
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#32
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Theres a leap of logic made in getting to that line. just because you can see something does not mean you can cast on it, and to assense somethign all that means is you have to see it astrally. For example, you can assense a mundane while projecting that does not mean you can cast spells on him.
I would personally say that the line on SR3, p181 that says "Not spells like clarivoyance or any other spells which alter vision". Ultimately though it's a GM's call as the issue is not directly addressed by the book. Neither side can use "It's not in the book" because all that means then it is up to your GM. I would not allow it. |
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Apr 29 2004, 01:16 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Which is why it would have been useful to read the third paragraph in the section on astral spellcasting, as I suggested, which addresses and refutes this objection. A materialized spirit is a dual being, and that paragraph makes clear that while purely astral being can only target what is astral, a dual being can target what he/she/it can see on either plane. Since you are directly using the senses of a dual being, substituting them for your own, and MitS is very clear that you can see astrally through the ally spirit, it follows that you can target through the spirit.
I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I can argue mine is the correct cannonical interpretation: "it doesn't say you can't" is not my only argument.
Also: snipers, RPG snipers, drones, well planted explosives, ally spirits sneaking in as a bug, rematerializing into a larger form and killing the character physically or with a combat spell it knows. All these methods can already be used, and yet, we don't disallow sniper rifles, RPGs, drones, explosives, and multiple ally spirit forms. -------------------------------------------- I'm much more interested in the question of forms, which I feel requires more interpretation and creativity. If we were to make a system for making alternate forms other than the simple, logically unsound "1 karma for additional forms, each form has the same stats," what would it be? How, or could, we quantify subtle, innate form bonuses, or would it be a mater of case-by-case interpretation? |
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Apr 29 2004, 01:33 AM
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#34
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
There is no prohibition against having multiple ally spirits. However, since you can only repeat most ordeals with GM permission, you cannot have multiple Familiars. If a mage wishes to have multiple allies, and spends the full magic point and karma for each, I can't see how it can be unbalancing in the slightest.
Also-- since one can't cast through a clairvoyance spell, I'd say that you can't cast through senselink. It seems that anything that isn't your own eyes looking at the target doesn't count. |
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Apr 29 2004, 02:29 AM
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#35
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 8-April 04 From: Utah Member No.: 6,225 |
Unfortunately, the way the rules are written its not possible to declare one way or another what the authors intended when they threw that ally ability in. Personally, I'd rule that it doesnt work that way
Ultimately, the character is the source of the spell, not the ally and thats a very important point. How would you rationalize the power of the spell getting from the mages body (which is still occupied, he's not projecting anywhere) to the target? Every instance of spellcasting that I can find still refers to even straight mana spells being thrown or directed in some way. Is the mana being channeled through the ally? Should the ally have to take drain along with the mage? |
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Apr 29 2004, 02:38 AM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Berzerker-
How do you rationalize getting line of sight through a complex setup of mirrors (SR3, p181, second paragraph from the bottom)? If you set them up right, you could manabolt someone accross the country, in theory. Clearly, "getting from" the "mage's body" is not at issue, line of sight is. And senselink provides line of sight, both physically, and, more importantly, astrally.
Is mana channeled through the mirrors? Should they take drain? Cain-
What about mages that don't have eyes, who target purely through astral perception? ------------------------------------------------ Doesn't anyone want to discuss alternate ally spirit materialization form rules? |
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Apr 29 2004, 02:50 AM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I would disagree. Getting from the mage's body is an issue. In fact, if you're casting an elemental manipulation spell the element can splat against the window, or get blocked by it if the glass is strong enough. Astral barriers such as wards also act as obsticles between caster and target, as reflected by the higher TNs even if the mages vision is unobstructed.
Although I don't think the mage can use the sense link this way at all, if he did the spirit won't have to resist drain. MiTS states that spirits never take drain. If we did want to allow this use of sense link while still limiting the power, we could extrapolate from the guideline that spirits can't cast at a power higher than their level and put the same restriction on any spells cast through the spirit. |
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Apr 29 2004, 03:00 AM
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#38
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I agree with bezerker on this. But even if I didn't, I might rule that way anyway because of balance issues. If you allow GunnerJ's interpretation, than a mage will have virtually unrestricted access to cast spells anywhere. He can use the sense link to cast spells on the astral without being astrally present himself, thereby avoiding physical drain. He can bypass wards, avoiding the plusses to TNs, by having the spirit go there directly from the metaplane. He can infiltrate invisibly as an astral being and then materialize to cast at mundane targets. And all without any danger to himself, and at worst only the temporary inconvenience of disruption for his ally. Just seems to overpowering to me. |
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Apr 29 2004, 03:02 AM
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#39
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
SR3 p. 181, Spell Targeting, goes into detail about what is allowed for line of sight and what isn't. It basically says magic cannot be used to alter your vision for purposes of spell targeting. The only acceptable forms are metahuman vision enhancements, cybernetic enhancements paid for with Essence, mirrors, fibre optics, and optical lenses.
The rules for Sense Link make no mention of augmenting these rules, thus those rules are not augmented by the power. The power would have to specifically state that it can be used to cast spells in order for it to be permissible since it does not fit into any of the allowed forms of visual enhancement. |
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Apr 29 2004, 03:44 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
That's true, but this seems to be a special case. Most spells don't work like elemental manips, which are essentially create something which the caster uses sorcery to fling. This is supported by SR3 (p182, first paragraph), which describes spellcasting as "manipulat[ing] mana to create an effect at the location of the target," and explicitly states that spells do not travel from the caster to the target. The next section talks about the special exception of elemental manips.
Hardly. No more than a rigger has unrestricted access to shooting anywhere through a drone.
He can already use the ally to do stuff astrally without being prensent. This does not seem like such a great leap. Again, the master can just order the spirit to cast any spells it knows, and risks no drain whatsoever. The karma cost to give an ally a good force 5 spell is the same as the sense link power, and it already gets one for free.
Telepathic link can be blocked or hindered by background count. It seems logical that similar hindrences can be caused by wards, to both abilities.
Something the ally can already do with its own spells, with the master risking no drain whatsoever.
Someone who can't see what's going on around him hardly seems to be in no danger.
Here's an interesting idea: riggers who are directly commanding drones get dumpshock if the drone is destroyed (IIRC). This is because of the simsense link. What we're discussing here is a real sense link. Doesn't seem like a great jump to suggest that the master who is substituting all his senses for his ally's would suffer similar, perhaps worse, effects. But, like the ward thing above, this is not something in canon. They're solutions, and fairly simple ones, to paper problems being offered as objections to a logical interpretation.
I'm sorry, I'm looking at the passage right now and it says no such thing. It does not say ("basically" or otherwise) that magic, in general, cannot be used to alter vision for spell targeting, it says spells cannot. Senselink is not a spell. It does not list those forms of enhancement as some finate set of explicitly and exclusively allowed forms of enhancement, they are offered as examples in contrast to some forms of technological and spell-based vision enhancement. Senselink is neither a technological enhancement nor a spell. Here's a question: if you can't target spells through senselink, why does it cost extra? It seems to me that any information that could be gained by directly sensing it could be just as easily gained by having the ally describe it telepathically, if not more easily since telepathic linking doesn't prevent a magician from using his own senses. OK, the ally might lie or distort the truth. But I can only see it being reasonable to pay one extra karma for an ability that basically you only need if you can't trust your ally, which probably means you're mistreating it, and which makes you very vulnerable. |
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Apr 29 2004, 04:01 AM
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#41
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Note that the rigger isn't using the gun in his hand to shoot. He's using the one on the drone. Your rigger analogy is false. To make it true it is to say the Mage sees what the ally sees and orders it to attack or cast a spell.
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Apr 29 2004, 04:31 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Not relevent. They don't have to be exactly the same, they simply need to have the same restrictions and risks vis-a-vis causing things to happen remotely. When I use the comparison, it's WRT objections that the mage will be able to just cast spells anywhere without restrictions or risks. But in actuallity, the restrictions and risks are almost identical to those taken by a drone rigger. Actually, the rigger doesn't personally lose anything by ordering the drone to fire, nor is he/she damaged in any way, but the magician risks drain. So if anything, the magician is worse off. |
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Apr 29 2004, 08:33 AM
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#43
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Yeah, I knew someone would bring that up. Astral Perception is still your own unaided perception. GunnerJ-- your rigger analogy would work if you say that the ally can cast spells on a target in it's LOS. The ally can cast, and it can be directed through the telepathic link, with the mage running senselink to determine targets. But it's the ally who casts, just like it's the drone that fires. The rigger just sends the order. Now, if you talk about using drones for indirect fire-- the only spells that could fire indirectly are Elemental Manipulations. If someone has partial LOS to an area, and is using an ally spirit to help aim the spell, I'd allow that to reduce some of the penalties. But only with Elemental Manipulations, and only if there is a reasonable "flight path" for the spell. |
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Apr 29 2004, 09:07 AM
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#44
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Oddly enough though, according to Rob Boyle you can still cast through an invisible door though. I'm sure you'll remember that little debait a year or so back :) As it happens: People have tried the "It dosen't say so it's not possible" and "It dosen't say so it is possible" arguments already and somehow came to a deadlock over that point (Odd, isn't it?). Now we're on wether or not it's possible to chanel mana using the link in the same manner that a mage can chanel mana when he can see an object through a fibreoptic cable. I would suggest that as the caster manipulates mana at the target's location anyway, it may not matter that he's not physically there. |
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Apr 29 2004, 10:03 AM
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#45
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
To answer opne of the original questions:
Target:Wastelands pg.124 says that: "It is rumored that some angatkuq have access to secret rituals or metamagical techniques that allow them to create tupilak with the spirit powers of Accident and Fear." Tupilak are ally spirits, in game terms, so... there's your canon source for creating ally spirits with other powers. I wouldn't make it common, though, and limit the extra power(s) to a few specific ones determined by the tradition of the mage. |
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Apr 29 2004, 02:15 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
That was actually my original intent... just a few extra powers, not all the powers of any given nature spirit. |
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Apr 29 2004, 02:28 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Cybereyes, mirros setups, etc. are not, tho. They are aids to your perception, but are exceptions to the rule. Nor are they, it is important to note, the only exceptions, nor even the only explicitly listed exceptions.
Actually, it already works perfectly right now for what it's intended to do: make a comparison of risks and limitations, especially WRT the ease with which a magician could remotely cast through senselink. No analogies are perfect, what's important is that they fit the terms of their intentions. The only potential flaws I can see are that a drone can't travel astrally, but still, any target of infiltration that doesn't have enough magical security to intercept/detect an astral indruder could probably be messed with through other means besides an ally spirit (who could infiltrate in the same way just as easily and use its own spells). And I'm not going to argue every case in which using senselink to remotely cast might be more useful than aother method of remote attack; it is more useful than others in some ways. The fact remains that people who say that a magician could remotely cast anywhere, anytime, without any risk to themselves, through senselink are wrong, in that you could just as easily make the same arguments about drone riggers if you ignore the vulnerability a drone rigger faces when he's rigging. Actually, drain is another difference in this respect, but one that supports my case since it's a risk a magician has to take but a drone rigger doesn't. Now this topic is becoming a chore; it's obvious no one is going to be convinced, and I will leave it to each member to determine why for him or her self without any gloating about the obvious superiority of my position. ;) Suffice to say, I don't care that much anymore. |
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Apr 29 2004, 02:39 PM
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#48
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
I'd certainly vote yes for applying limited versions of the movement power to particular spirit forms. IE: The spirit bike would have its movement power for the purposes of moving in the same manner as a normal bike. It wouldn't have it for its full 3d movement, however, unless it was a hoverbike or something. Hmm. Perhaps you could apply a set of edges and flaws to different forms? Movement multiplier, form advantages (working weapon/gun), size (reach/difficulty to see), ETC. |
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Apr 29 2004, 02:48 PM
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#49
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
GunnerJ, you started this thread by asking a question, but it seems you've already made up your mind anyway and are just looking for validation of your interpretation.
I agree there's no point in continuing the thread because at this point I don't think anybody's really listening to each other's arguments anyway. However it works out in your game, good luck and I hope you have fun with it. In the long run, that's what's important anyway. |
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Apr 29 2004, 02:56 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Here was the original question:
Emphasis added for what should be obvious reasons. I did indeed have an opinion, and was interested in discussing potential differences in opinon. Silly me for thinking that that was the purpose of a discussion board! |
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