All about ally spirits, Unanswered questions Options

[GunnerJ]

[Crusher Bob]

Hmm, there may be some problems with allowinf form 'flaws', since there seems to be no penatly in chaning forms. So I'll gime my ally the 'Redneck Tree' form with +4 reach and no running multiplier for 1 karma, and the 'spider legged thingy' form with a +6 running multiplier (with some useless penalties tacked on), and just have it switch betweeen them.

[Lilt]

Hmm. It'd probably take two exclusive simple actions to change form (Dematerialise then materialise again). I suppose that's not really enough to warrant giving forms significant reductions for disadvantages.

[BitBasher]

Actually I may argue this a different way. When using Sense Link the caster never, ever has LOS. LOS is by definition a straight line from point A to point B where A is the caster and B is the target. When using sense link the caster never, ever has a true LOS. He can see from point C, the ally, to point B the target. He can visually see, and since he can see astrally he can assesne, but he literally doesn't have LOS for anything that requires real LOS. The caster's eyes are literally not involved in the process.

Is there any other effect anywhere else in the game that allows a caster to use any LOS related magic without having LOS? Remember, fiber optics and mirrors specifically grant LOS.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Nope, as previously mentioned, the rules for Spell Targeting list all available forms of visual enhancements. Any additional rules would have to specifically state that you could use it for LOS (and just because a few rules remind you that you can't, that doesn't change anything). GunnerJ prefers to ignore that particular bit since it's contrary to his attempts to legitimize this. To each their own.

[GunnerJ]

[GunnerJ]

[A Clockwork Lime]

Once again. Page 181 lists all of the acceptable forms of visual enhancement for spellcasting. Any new rules that are outside of this list must specifically state that they can be used for LOS, otherwise they are invalid. Nowhere is it even hinted at that Sense Link can be used in this fashion. It is not 1) the caster's unaided vision, 2) a cybernetic enhancement paid for with Essence, 3) a natural metahuman visual enhancements, 4) fiber optics, 5) a set of mirrors, or 6) an optical lens.

Page 181 lists these as the only official forms of augmentation. The guidelines they also present here strongly suggest that no form of magic (and I realize they say spell) can be used to augment a caster's LOS.

The rules would thus have to specifically state that such a form of magic allows one to cast a spell. But shock, shock. They don't. And thus you're not partial to that fact, so you prefer to ignore it and claim that it's completely bogus, which it most certainly isn't.

You might as well claim that a caster can just call some guy on the phone and ask him what he's seeing with his own eyes, then describe it to him in detail on the phone. The rules on page 181 certainly don't list that as an unacceptable form, nor do any rules anywhere else in the game. Thus, using your logic here, it must be completely allowable. (Don't bother wasting your time responding to this point, I know it's probably invalid but I'm just trying to make a point with it.)

Do as you please in your own game. Just don't try to delude yourself into thinking it's in any way official when all indications point otherwise. You don't even have so much as an off-beat possibility for a rule to stand on for saying that Sense Link would work in this fashion. The CLOSEST examples are the Clairvoyance and Eyes of the Pack spells, neither of which are permissible. If either one were, you might be on to something by saying that the rules lean that way. But they most certainly do not despite your personal preference.

[Cain]

Let's take a look at the original question:

[GunnerJ]

[BitBasher]

That was the point I was trying to show too, Cain.

[GunnerJ]

[A Clockwork Lime]

You could do the same with a Simsense Rig and someone with Snake Eyes, but that dosen't work any better.

[Joker9125]

I read the section on targeting on page 181 SR3 and I noticed 4 things that seem to be requirements for soemthing to give the caster LOS

1. It is attached to the casters origional body and/or has been paid for with essence as in the case of cyber eyes.

2. It redirects photons(light) from the target directly back to the casters body as in the case of fiber optics, optoical lenses, mirrors, natural metahuman visual enhancements, and cyber eyes.

3. It is not a spell.

4. It has to meet requirement 3 but only needs to meet one of the first 2

Lets see how sense link fits into the 4 categories.

1. Is senselink part of the casters origional body or been paid for with essence? No

2. Does senselink redirect photons from the target directly to the casters body? No

3. Is senselink a spell? No

4. Does it meet requirement 3? Yes. Does it meet requirements 1 or 2? No.

Now I think we need to clear up a little somethng about assessing someone or somethings astral signature. The shadowrun novels go into a little more detail than the book on the subject. Think of an aura as a mist of shifting multicolored energy. When you are assessing something you are looking at its aura and the way mages determine emotions and such from this is by observing how the energy shifts and changes color.

EDIT: I of course am reffering to regular LOS not ritual sorcery because it is a special case.

[GunnerJ]

[Herald of Verjig...]

The spirit is a part of the mage's original self. The magic point comes from the mage, making the spirit an extension of the mage as long as both exist.

If that is enough to get past your 1st requirement, I have some questions about severed fingers in nutrient baths.

[GunnerJ]

[Herald of Verjig...]

Because it's easier to answer than the main debate:
MitS page 34, first sentance on requirements

[A Clockwork Lime]

[Joker9125]

[Lilt]

[GunnerJ]

[GunnerJ]

Alright, the "is it canon" argument is dull, but I will say that based on a few things I've read here I'm less willing to argue that my POV is the only correct interpretation and more willing to accept that it's up in the air, since there's no explicit ruling either way.

Assuming that remote spell targeting is allowed through senselink, is it balanced? If not, how can it be?

I think that something like a "dumpshock" effect if the ally is harmed/disrupted would go a long way towards addressing balance issues, as would an extension of the rules that background count makes the telepathic link harder to maintain to cover both senselink and wards.

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Cain]