 All about ally spirits, Unanswered questions |
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 Apr 30 2004, 11:48 AM
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#76
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032  |
Except that through ritual sorcery you can bring down a whole other world of hurt as 10 or so mages all contribute dice to the casting. Ritual sorcery also allows you to allocate dice to sustaining the spell for extended periods. Ritual sorcery allows you to use ritual tracking, which the senselink power does not. Ritual sorcery is effectively free with the sorcery skill, which senselink is not. Plus ritual sorcery can be performed without having to send a spirit to the desired location, instead using a material link. |
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Apr 30 2004, 04:06 PM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Lilt has already refuted this, so I won't address it.
Someone mentioned that no one was listening to anyone else's arguments, and I think I can agree that this is true for at least one "side" here. Else you might not have missed this:
Listing a problem is not the same thing as declaring it insurmountable, which is why I not only asked what problems there are (and I agree there are some) but how they can be fixed. It's not even much of a stretch to assume that a mage using senselink would suffer dumpshock-like effects. Dumpshock occurs because your senses are shut down without warning, and your system is shocked. If all your senses are the ally's, then not only would you be shocked at an abrupt loss of them (from disruption) but you might even be effected by damage the ally takes. Drones don't feel pain, but allys do (they can take stun damage), and through sesnselink, so does the magician controlling the ally.
You're talking about casting from around the globe. Let's think about this logically. Drones don't have opinions or feelings to be hurt, but an ally might resent being cast off thousands of miles from its master to do all manner of dirty work while his master is sitting comfortably at home. The ally is taking most of the risk, the master simply has to ensure that his body is innaccessable when he/she is using senselink. I think that while there is no set limit on the distance at which one can remote view with an ally, there is an implicit one, in that the ally might not like being put in harms way all the time. This would at least make "around the world" away missions infrequent, and the constant use of an ally as a spotter at any distance inadvisable.
Yes. As long as they can handle it. But they might not be able to, and they might botch a drain roll. A rigger will NEVER be harmed by his/her drone firing its gun, unless the gun is pointed at the rigger. |
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Apr 30 2004, 04:11 PM
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#78
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 8-April 04 From: Utah Member No.: 6,225 |
If you were to allow this, I still think that targetting a spell through the ally should force them resist drain as well. Plus I'd say that another limiting factor is the ally itself. A drone rigger can send his drone anywhere, make it do anything and it wont get ticked off at him and start deliberately twisting his commands. Trying to use an ally spirit as a combat drone wouldn't fall under the "Be nice to your ally" catagory.
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May 1 2004, 12:10 AM
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#79
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
That assumes that you can get 10 mages of the same tradition to contribute; that they've got enough dice to be worthwhile, and that no one involved has Quickening or a sustaining focus handy; also, that the dice expended on ritual targeting don't render the dice pool to the same size as an individual with a powerful expendable focus. You can only use ritual tracking if you have a material link; on the other hand, you could use a watcher to track down someone you know, if all you want to do is track them (and they're not behind a ward, which would impede all attempts equally.) Senselink is "free" with Conjuring; the ability to conjure an ally automatically confers the ability to grant it senselink. Finally, ritual sorcery frequently involves an "astral spotter", for when you can't acquire a material link. Basically, the advantages of being able to cast through Senselink far outweigh the advantages of ritual sorcery.
By this logic, the ally would resent any remote service that it has to perform. Hell, allies should be resentful of being involved in any combat at all. IMO, being in astral space should cause an ally to be less resentful of having to materialize and perform a task manually.
Or if the gun jams, or if the ammo cooks. There is zero risk for a mage observing a situation via senselink. At worst, his ally may get disrupted; an astral quest will bring it back, if he doesn't want to wait. A drone rigger is out a drone, perhaps a deck, and possibly even may damage his cyberware. |
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May 1 2004, 12:19 AM
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#80
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
I find that believable, but you seem to be ignoring the spell targetting rules. If you can use sense link ot get the LoS of your ally spirit, the spirit needs to manifest to affect anything not astrally active, and is potentially in danger from any astrally active target. You can't snipe from the astral, except against dual natured non-mages (and they can hide in closets). |
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May 1 2004, 12:34 AM
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#81
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Only by ignoring my logic is this statement true. It wouldn't resent any remote service, but if things of the scale you described were commonplace, it would probably get sick of it. So using senselink to cast around the world is no different than guiding an ally through a physical task around the world: you can do it, but it's probably not wise to do it a lot. Bottom line, it's not as easy, not nearly as routine, as you imply.
Actully, gun jamming/ammo cooking don't hurt the rigger, they just cost him (potentially). But the analogy of a botched roll perfectly illustrates that the magician is physically at risk; he takes the risk of drain and the potential to get really nuked if the roll is fucked up. How you can maintain the obvious falsehood that the magician takes zero risk in a situation where he can't even use his own senses is beyond me.
Yet again ignoring my suggestion of a dumpshock like effect is an ally is harmed or disrupted while senselink is on. You've mentioned some potential problems, but nothing you've mentioned has been shown to be "unbalancable." And an astral quest is hardly soemthing to shrug off as routine, or at least it shouldn't be.
Out of curiousity, hwo would a gun jam or ammo cookoff harm his cyberware or deck? |
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May 1 2004, 06:25 AM
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#82
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Well, it's a lot easier than Ritual Sorcery, which is the only thing I have to compare it to magically. It's also much easier than sending a drone.
Even if there were a dumpshock penalty, the mage is only out time. Dumpshock does stun damage, as does Drain in most cases.
It depends on the force of the ally; I've never seen one beneath rating 5, which is difficult but hardly insurmountable. If the ally is only rating 3-4, it is quite easy.
If a drone's ammo cooks, and it explodes, it causes both dumpshock and potential Stress to the rigger's cyber. If he's got a CED, that can stress out as well. If the GM happens to rule that the cookoff also causes electrical damage, say because your drone falls into a lake, then you have to deal with even more Stress. |
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May 2 2004, 08:36 AM
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#83
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Target Group: Members Posts: 62 Joined: 6-May 03 From: What do you mean? Meat bod or not? Member No.: 4,543 |
Four friggin pages on ally spirits, and no-one has asked if they can dikote their new AVS-form ally spirit. :P
What has happened to Dumpshock? :wobble: IMHO a senselink would be a no-no, as it detaches you from your own aura, so no aura alignment . At the very least, it should have automatic physical drain, as when you astral project. |
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May 2 2004, 09:19 AM
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#84
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
Of course you can't cast spells through sense link to your Ally. That's just silly.
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May 2 2004, 09:28 AM
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#85
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I still maintain that by definition sense link does not grant LOS from the mage to the target. It allows the mage to see the available LOS from his ally to the target. He must have LOS from himself to the target according to the Spell Targeting secion of the BBB in order to cast, and in that section is explicitly listed all the circumstances in which LOS can be fulfilled, such as fiberoptics and mirrors.
I also think it's a tad silly to compare it to a rigger. You can't compare Oranges to Chevys just because they both can roll. :D |
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May 2 2004, 05:41 PM
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#86
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Of course you can. You can compare acceleration across surfaces of varying material and slope. They are two drastically different objects, but there are things you can compare between them. |
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May 2 2004, 06:03 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Cain, I think a lot of this issues you listed as being unbalancing apply merely to senselink itself, rather than casting remotely through senselink. Why, you could bring the same objtions against having an ally cast its own spells remotely. I thought about this, and that's when I found a legitimate unresolvable balance issue. Nevermind comparisons to ritual sorcery or rigging, because those apply whether it's the magician or his/her ally casting. The big problem is, if you could cast throguh senselink, there'd be no need to have an ally learn its own spells. This is one thing I can't answer, so I think I'm going to have to revise my position and say that it's not a good idea to allow remote targeting throguh senselink.
Well, sure, except that it does no such thing. At all. At least not that anyone's been able to demonstrate. Oh, it lists LOS enhancements... but no one has shown, nor can anyone show, that this is an explicit listing of all possible forms, rather than what it actually looks like in context: examples of legitimate LOS enhancement offered to contrast illegitimate ones.
Oh, christ, the M&M Stress rules! Don't get me started on that nonsense... The only thing I could think when reading it is that with all the rolls and whatnot required, it would take as long to resolve one damage resistance issue with them as it would take to resolve a whole battle without them. |
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May 2 2004, 06:42 PM
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#88
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Okay, That list lists several things that explicitly allow and disallow LOS for the casting of spells. Can you list any circumstances not on that list that may generate LOS? I'm fairly certain that that there are no examples of spellcasting using any form of LOS that was not granted on the aforementioned list. can you find any book example of spellcasting in a way where LOS was gained not via somehting on that list?
In reality it all comes down to what your GM says, if it's not explicitly allowed in the book. About something which is not mentioned whatsoever there is no right or wrong, its the providence of the GM. |
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May 2 2004, 07:51 PM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Whether or not there are any examples of LOS enhancements not listed on p181 or SR3 is not relevent to whether or not there can be, or whether or not an ambiguous case can be canonically interpreted as allowing LOS. In other words, SR3 p181 lists things that enhance LOS, but there is nothing to suggest that these are the only possible LOS enhancements, and that other hypothetical forms of LOS enhancement not listed or forbidden are noncanonical. But really, it's not really an important issue to me anymore. I can see that the uselessness of teaching an ally any spells if you could remote target through senselink is a legitimate balance issue which makes the ability to do so inadvisable. |
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